DO We Have Free Will?

[Shiloh1-49-10]

For Jesus, yes. For the balance of us the tempter tempts in our minds, period. I do not equate the temptation as being the same.

Satan had NOTHING WITHIN JESUS.



So, you are on record that there is zero temptation in mind by the tempter?

s

No, Squint. Absolutely not on record as saying anything like that. You've heard the common phrase, "The mind is the plaything of the Devil", I believe it to be so. The Book of Phillipians has much to say about the mind...be of one mind...let this mind be in you as in Christ Jesus... and so on. And this book brings out what we call "normal Christianity". Which means the 'mind' is something that must be guarded very carefully, as believers, or it will indeed be a plaything of the devil, etc.

Here's what I'm saying. Satan hasn't taken up residence in the minds of believers. He was sent out, if you will, when we invited the Spirit in. He no longer has power over us as he had before. Why not? Because we have another Spirit, more powerful than he, and through Him we are (can be, at least), victors. He is a defeated foe for the believer now. All we have to do "walk in the spirit".

He is not, as you intimate, dwelling within, exerting his will in conjunction or in opposition to mine. There's only "my will" which, if I am walking in the spirit, will be pleasing to God, or, if walking according to the flesh, will be pleasing to Satan. If I yield Godward I do so out of love and devotion only, for "He cannot tempt to virtue as we can to vice", as Satan and his demons do so so often.

 

[AllanV]

God initiates but each person can, must, and does respond....and that man indeed has free will and is not just responding to a pre-programmed determination...so though a bit lengthy I include it here for our mutual edification and apologize to Augustine for oft times blaming him for Calvin's unintentional heresy (that blames God for sin and sinners).

Pshun...read your submission, and the evidence is greatly stacked towards the doctrine of "free will". Since I have already made a statement seemingly to the contrary I would like to qualify it here, briefly.

The belief that man of his own 'free will' would seek after God is erroneous for Scripture itself declares, "There is none that seeketh after God, no, not one", Rom.3. What is it then? The point is I would never come to God, I would never seek Him out, because of my sinful nature. Like adam, all I want to do is cover in fig leaves and hide myself from Him.

But I can come. And God wants me to come. He has opened the way for me to come, through Christ. He has given His word that tells me He loves me and wants only my blessing. He sent His Spirit into the world to draw me to Himself. He uses you and hundreds like you, to tell me so, to pray for me and, hopefully, to bring me to the point where I take sides against myself...believe that only God is true and 'every man a liar'...and overcoming every inward resistence, yield, saying,"Just as I am, I come".

In that way one might say I exercised "free will" to come, but it is not solely so, for without that "Outside" Source witnessing to my inside God-given spirit, small 's', I would never have come. To Him be all the Glory!

This is what I truly believe scripture teaches about 'free will'.

God draws the individual in the first place and then the understanding is that through Jesus Christ immortality is entirely possible. But what is there to overcome? The will needs to exert through belief action of own volition.

With the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Therefore fully believe in the heart what is being said.

But belief in self or belief in God. - John 5:24 I say unto you he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into Judgement.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

God draws the individual in the first place and then the understanding is that through Jesus Christ immortality is entirely possible. But what is there to overcome? The will needs to exert through belief action of own volition.

With the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Therefore fully believe in the heart what is being said.

But belief in self or belief in God. - John 5:24 I say unto you he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into Judgement.

Cannot disagree. Would like to itterate though that Scripture indicates clearly that we would not seek God of our own volition...we did not seek after God, He sought us, the lost sheep gone astray. There's nothing 'in us' that would desire after God...we have to be coersed, beseeched, pleaded with, to come. That's my point. No credit given to us who come but much responsibility laid at the feet of those who don't. "All may come" is what scripture says. But isn't it hard to deny myself? Explains why many don't I guess.

 

[pshun2404]

God initiates but each person can, must, and does respond....and that man indeed has free will and is not just responding to a pre-programmed determination...so though a bit lengthy I include it here for our mutual edification and apologize to Augustine for oft times blaming him for Calvin's unintentional heresy (that blames God for sin and sinners).

Pshun...read your submission, and the evidence is greatly stacked towards the doctrine of "free will". Since I have already made a statement seemingly to the contrary I would like to qualify it here, briefly.

The belief that man of his own 'free will' would seek after God is erroneous for Scripture itself declares, "There is none that seeketh after God, no, not one", Rom.3. What is it then? The point is I would never come to God, I would never seek Him out, because of my sinful nature. Like adam, all I want to do is cover in fig leaves and hide myself from Him.

But I can come. And God wants me to come. He has opened the way for me to come, through Christ. He has given His word that tells me He loves me and wants only my blessing. He sent His Spirit into the world to draw me to Himself. He uses you and hundreds like you, to tell me so, to pray for me and, hopefully, to bring me to the point where I take sides against myself...believe that only God is true and 'every man a liar'...and overcoming every inward resistence, yield, saying,"Just as I am, I come".

In that way one might say I exercised "free will" to come, but it is not solely so, for without that "Outside" Source witnessing to my inside God-given spirit, small 's', I would never have come. To Him be all the Glory!

This is what I truly believe scripture teaches about 'free will'.

Did I not say God initiates? Christ says I stand at the door and knock, and if you open it, I will come in and dine with you...(God first then our action follows). God gave the Son and says in John 1:12 to as many as receive Him He gives the right or power to become the children of God (they are not already His children who receive). Repent and be baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ (which is a ministry of the Holy Spirit who is God) and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (that is, to dwell within you). Ephesians 1:13 also makes this clear when Paul says, In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth (faith comes by hearing), the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. So we see the hearing, the believing and then the sealing. That's all. This is what the whole council of God (not one side or the other) teaches. This is what Augustine later clarified. There are those who say grace but deny free will and they are incorrect, others stress free will so much grace becomes irrelevant (equally missing the point). The Bible clearly teaches both are true. God gives the opportunity to choose (grace) and then we must choose (free will). He commands (grace) and we must obey or not (free will).

The passages are so many. He comes to us and then having heard and faith is aroused we must decide whether to do Gods will or our will.

Take Cain for an example. God speaks to him after he brought the inappropriate sacrifice and is all upset. God offers Cain, totally by grace, a chance to go and do it right, and tells him if he does, all will go well with him. He even warns Cain of the consequence, yet Cain chooses not to, rejects God and His gracious offer, and acts as his own lord, doing what is right in his own eyes (always an abomination unto God).

Over and over the Scriptures in many places show us that the Lord will reveal Himself to us and some respond and accept and receive His promise while others, like in Romans 1, reject the Lord and the knowledge of Him, and suffer the consequence.

So if you read it carefully you would see I was not saying that we cause our salvation, or that what we do accomplishes or merits our salvation (He could have justly smote Cain right there and then...He knew what Cain would choose and do...only God did not cause Cain or make Cain to kill Abel, or else God would have been the responsible party...God forbid!) but rather because free will is real, we become responsible for our choices and thus the Lord is totally justified in judgment. All the early church fathers taught by either the Apostles or those who the Apostles trained and appointed as the first leaders taught this doctrine to their students. There simply were no Calvinists. When the command comes if we transgress we have sinned (1 John 3:4) and before the command there is no transgression.

How can they believe if they never heard? And how can they hear if no one preached? If they are already predetermined (as opposed to predestined according to His foreknowing like with Cain), or in Calvin's words "foreordained and created" to be damned, then in their sinning they were actually doing God's will for them (God forbid!).

In His love

Paul

 

[Arcoe]

Oh look you almost admitted you believe the same thing as me on this subject! wow. it almost slipped out.

Of course satan tempts through my mind, but you are wanting me to agree that satan occupies my mind and I share a will with him. No, I will never admit this.

A. I disagree with ZERO scriptures.

You may not disagree, but do you believe them? Do you believe we can resist the devil and he will flee from us?

B. When you have an actual opinion about whether the tempter tempts believers 'in mind' YES OR NO, you can let me know. Until then you remain with no opinion or an obscure one at best on the matter

Why do you doubt?

Just remember if you answer YES you and I believe THE SAME on that matter. So I doubt you'll actually answer or you would have by now as it's what? 3rd or 4th request? I guess that is what passes for open and forthright dialog nowdays? not.

Sorry, I do not believe the devil occupies my mind and shares a will with me.

Now for the third time I'll ask you, Have you resisted the devil and have him flee from you?

C. You appear to think that Jesus sinned in His Own Mind, which I personally consider to be quite heretical

I never said Jesus sinned. Where did you get that? Again, temptation is not sin. You can take your heretical-chaser badge off.

 

[AllanV]

Cannot disagree. Would like to itterate though that Scripture indicates clearly that we would not seek God of our own volition...we did not seek after God, He sought us, the lost sheep gone astray. There's nothing 'in us' that would desire after God...we have to be coersed, beseeched, pleaded with, to come. That's my point. No credit given to us who come but much responsibility laid at the feet of those who don't. "All may come" is what scripture says. But isn't it hard to deny myself? Explains why many don't I guess.

I was drawn by God and knew in 5 seconds that immortality is possible through the sacrifice of Jesus, in a strong experience. But after listening to much teaching and interpretation fell into work and personal interests and associations, bonding with "sinners".

14 years later the belief about what was experienced at the beginning was still intact. But it became apparent that my belief was the wrong perspective.
Prayer and fasting and bringing every thought into the obedience and captivity of Christ over three weeks opened up another dimension. There is a way to believe in God from His perspective. What began as a short health fast ended 3 weeks later with a whole new perspective and deeper understanding of scriptures.

The will is needed in an inward act to thrust away from the last traits in the mind of the old person and then the nature of Jesus covers in His Love with the indwelling of God. There is no influence on or within this new mind that would lead a person into sin. The nature is so gentle that it will not bond with the rebellious hard heart of man. The emotions cannot come under attack and others may try but there is nothing that can be found to attach to. It is very powerful in its perfect gentleness, the anointing is complete.

There is a way to completion that is not understood. It does require some commitment and striving to enter. When this begins to happen true understanding of what occurred in the early church will be understood. It will also be understood why it came under the severest attack.

• Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. KJV

​

 

[pshun2404]

Submitting to God and in doing so resisting the devil is what it takes according to James. And no, temptation is never called sin. Even Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are but He never sinned.

In His name

Paul

 

[squint]

Of course satan tempts through my mind,

Well, certainly glad you finally got around to that fact.

 

[squint]

Submitting to God and in doing so resisting the devil is what it takes according to James. And no, temptation is never called sin. Even Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are but He never sinned.

In His name

Paul

Temptation to sin via sin thoughts are also sin.

 

[squint]

Here's what I'm saying. Satan hasn't taken up residence in the minds of believers. He was sent out, if you will, when we invited the Spirit in. He no longer has power over us as he had before. Why not? Because we have another Spirit, more powerful than he, and through Him we are (can be, at least), victors. He is a defeated foe for the believer now. All we have to do "walk in the spirit".

Quite beside the point.

For the purposes of this thread topic, showing that the 'will' of the tempter operates in the mind of mankind shows the fact of two parties present.

By whatever 'degree' is irrelevant to the fact of the two parties present.

And by that fact 'freewill' is a logical fallacy. It is not just the will of the man functioning therein.

Even these threads are a testimony to not only very low communications levels and even lower levels of understandings and poor relations to each others, but it also shows the potential of that other disturbing party in the nearly complete inability for believers to share a very simple fact, to speak honestly about that fact and to recognize that party needs to be factored into what we consider 'ourselves' to really be.

Not everything we think is just us is just us.

s

 

[Arcoe]

Well, certainly glad you finally got around to that fact.

Now for the FOURTH time I'll ask you -

Have you resisted the devil and have him flee from you?

If you resist him and he flees, you will not have the problem you keep insisting man has with him of 'living' in his mind.

 

[squint]

Now for the FOURTH time I'll ask you -

Have you resisted the devil and have him flee from you?

If you resist him and he flees, you will not have the problem you keep insisting man has with him of 'living' in his mind.

This thread is about freewill. If you manage to get out from under the circular logic you have employed so far perhaps we can factor out the fact that the will of another operator is in mankind rendering freewill er, ah, pretty lame.

As to your comment above I set my understandings next to Paul and I do not read James' statements as you do. We can obviously both read the same book and come to quite dramatically different sights.

At least one of us tries to employ some measures of critical thinking.

-satan tempts through my mind

- I do not believe the devil occupies my mind

For the purposes of this thread the fact being engaged is the fact that Satan does tempt internally, in mind, placing that working and worker therein to do so.

To what degree of this fact is irrelevant.

s

 

[Arcoe]

Temptation to sin via sin thoughts are also sin.

James 1 -
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It is not temptation which is sin within man. As James says, it is when man is drawn away and is enticed, and when lust has conceived, THEN IT BRINGS FORTH SIN.

Drawn away means to lure or seduce. Lust is man desiring that which is forbidden. Enticed means to deceive. Conceive means to take one as prisoner.

Man is tempted when he is seduced by his desiring what is forbidden and thus deceived. When his forbidden desires take him prisoner, THEN IT BRINGS FORTH SIN.

When man sins, or misses the mark, wanders from the laws of God, errs, violates divine law, it brings forth death.

Therefore I say, thoughts of sin are not sin within a man, but when man is seduced and taken prisoner by these thoughts, then it brings forth sin.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 10:5, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"

You keep your thoughts on your forbidden desires, you will sin; however, if we cast them down and bring them into captivity to the obedience of Christ, we will not sin from these thoughts.

 

[Arcoe]

This thread is about freewill. If you manage to get out from under the circular logic you have employed so far perhaps we can factor out the fact that the will of another operator is in mankind rendering freewill er, ah, pretty lame.

As to your comment above I set my understandings next to Paul and I do not read James' statements as you do. We can obviously both read the same book and come to quite dramatically different sights.

At least one of us tries to employ some measures of critical thinking.

For the purposes of this thread the fact being engaged is the fact that Satan does tempt internally, in mind, placing that working and worker therein to do so.
To what degree of this fact is irrelevant.

Not being able, nor wanting to answer my question, tells me what I need to know. If it is your free will and desire to keep the devil within you, influencing you with evil and deception, then have at it.

Not only will I resist the devil and have him flee from me, I will also resist any attempt of the devil coming from others to deceive me.

 

[squint]

Not being able, nor wanting to answer my question, tells me what I need to know.

It should tell you that it is irrelevant to the topic matter.

We've already done the math on your question but you neither saw it or understood it. It's been addressed already.

But, just as it took you how many posts???? to figure out the fact of temptation of the tempter are we now going to go back and rehash what has already been addressed?

GO READ and figure it out.

zzz

 

[Arcoe]

It should tell you that it is irrelevant to the topic matter.

We've already done the math on your question but you neither saw it or understood it. It's been addressed already.

But, just as it took you how many posts???? to figure out the fact of temptation of the tempter are we now going to go back and rehash what has already been addressed?

GO READ and figure it out.

zzz

No sir, I will not, of my own free will, go back and read. If you can't answer my question, then I can only assume you haven't resisted the devil and have him flee from you. I will not discuss any biblical issue with someone, whose mind is occupied with the devil, and he hasn't resisted the devil and his deceptions.

The devil does not want to be given truths from the word, as is evident in Jesus' temptations. I have given you James 4:7, and you have no interest in what it says, to apply it to your life. It seems you are perfectly content to 'share' your mind with the devil.

 

[squint]

No sir, I will not, of my own free will, go back and read.

Call it what you will...if it's just you. Debatable from my sight.

s

 

[Arcoe]

Call it what you will...if it's just you. Debatable from my sight.

s

Do you perhaps hold to the Calvinist doctrines? I have never heard a Calvinist deny resisting the devil and have him flee. In fact, I haven't heard anyone who calls himself a Christian deny this.

 

[squint]

Do you perhaps hold to the Calvinist doctrines? I have never heard a Calvinist deny resisting the devil and have him flee. In fact, I haven't heard anyone who calls himself a Christian deny this.

To help your reasoning, if we can not say we 'HAVE,' present tense, no sin and sin is of the devil and Paul had a devil (messenger of Satan) in his flesh, evil present with him, the chief of sinners.....

DEFINE FLEE

knock yerself out

s

 

[jasonsloss]

Is it God's will for me to sin?
Do I sin.

I'm looking for Scripture., but more than that, I'm looking for the Scripture
to be "rightly divided" as well.


I do sometimes sin, much as I hate to, much as it makes me sad.
It makes me sad because I don't believe my Father is blessed or glorified when I sin...

NO it is not God's will for you to sin, but just because we have a new life in Christ does not mean we won't sin... as long as we are in these wretched bodies we will always have to deal with our sin nature...

now the question should be do we as believers continue to practice sin or live in sin???