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DO We Have Free Will?

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squint

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squint prior: "A believer DOES have temptation of the tempter, period.This does not equate to 'control' or 'captivity' or 'possession.' "

Amen to both statements.

No, cannot agree. Scripture says we cannot serve two masters. If the believer has the Spirit of God dwelling "within", Satan cannot dwell "within". His temptations are from without but I have that old nature ""inside" that truly delights in those very temptations. That's why you and I are instructed to "resist the devil". But, no, believers do not have "another active will" within.

It is illogical to amen a fact and then deny the same fact.


If you say the believer does have internal temptation by the tempter that is a fact. That fact also places that working 'internally.'

So, one can not logically claim that yes, the temptation of the tempter transpires within, but it does not transpire within.

Sorry. I'm not into tail chasing on this particular subject.

s
 
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Arcoe

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Already said I didn't really expect you to actually weigh in on the subject matter.

There is scripture and there are reflections of same.

The two often vary.

s

You want me to agree with you? Nah. I've already showed you that you can resist and flee the devil, but that has no bearing on you. You had rather give the devil a home within you and blame your shortcomings on that.
 
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squint

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You want me to agree with you? Nah. I've already showed you that you can resist and flee the devil, but that has no bearing on you. You had rather give the devil a home within you and blame your shortcomings on that.

You have no position so pretty easy to disagree with any position isn't it?

?
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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Man cannot be free of God's will.
It is a creation of God, therefore it exists by & within, His will.
It either does what He wants or does what He allows.
Therefore, either way, it exists & operates according to His will.

Rick, I'm not sure I follow you on this. If scripture says that He is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance...and we know that many perish because they fail to do that last thing...would you not say that such a one has freed himself from God's will?
 
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pshun2404

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About 7 or 8 years after his Pelagian controversy upon which Calvin based his opinion Augustine wrote a clarification to his orthodox position on free will demonstrating clearly that he held the same position as the earlier fathers and in fact did not hold to what Calvin derived...Augustine did not believe man was elected to be damned and that man does indeed have free will both to respond to God's call and offer of grace and to resist that call (whether by the word of the prophets or Apostles or by hearing the gospel, etc.,)...

God initiates but each person can, must, and does respond....and that man indeed has free will and is not just responding to a pre-programmed determination...so though a bit lengthy I include it here for our mutual edification and apologize to Augustine for oft times blaming him for Calvin's unintentional heresy (that blames God for sin and sinners).

Addressed to Valentinus and the monks of Adrumetum, and completed in one book.

Chapter 1 [I.]— The Occasion and Argument of This Work.

With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him, and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us. But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love…

Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin…

Chapter 3.— Sinners are Convicted When Attempting to Excuse Themselves by Blaming God, Because They Have Free Will.

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man… The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Sirach 15:11-17 Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

Chapter 4.— The Divine Commands Which are Most Suited to the Will Itself Illustrate Its Freedom.

What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15 and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

In His name

Paul
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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Right, but His body tempted Him,... to eat, sleep, etc, according to it's own desires. Right?

I don't think we can use 'tempt' like that when referring to the Lord. The testing or tempting from without was like the fire applied to the gold...the fire did nothing to change the gold itself (except show the impurities)...the testings only showed that there were no 'impurities' in Him...testified of three witnesses...Paul who 'knew' most said...He knew no sin...Peter who 'did' most said...He did no sin, and John who leaned upon His bosom said...In Him was no sin. There was nothing in Him for Satan to 'hook on to' even though he tested Him in three different ways.
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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If you have been tempted with desires of internal sexual sins, then we can be assured, Jesus was also. For He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are. Now, resist the devil inside you, and believe scripture.

Arcoe, I refer you to post #611 for a comment I would like to make on what you say above. Let me add this by way of illustration.

I have some birds, crows mainly, that come to my door daily looking for morsels. The other day I tempted them with a few leftover vegetables, a few carrots and pieces of turnip, but there were no takers. A weak illustration to be sure, but the point is they were not tempted by my offering because of the 'nature' of crows. I apologize for using an unclean bird as example...but I want to show that even though Christ "was tempted (tested is the better word)" in ALL POINTS as we, unlike us, there is nothing in His nature that COULD respond to the temptation.
Not to say that as a man He wasn't hungry or thirsty or tired but, as the perfect servant, he would not do anything that was not given him of his Father.
 
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squint

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Arcoe, I refer you to post #611 for a comment I would like to make on what you say above. Let me add this by way of illustration.

I have some birds, crows mainly, that come to my door daily looking for morsels. The other day I tempted them with a few leftover vegetables, a few carrots and pieces of turnip, but there were no takers. A weak illustration to be sure, but the point is they were not tempted by my offering because of the 'nature' of crows. I apologize for using an unclean bird as example...but I want to show that even though Christ "was tempted (tested is the better word)" in ALL POINTS as we, unlike us, there is nothing in His nature that COULD respond to the temptation.
Not to say that as a man He wasn't hungry or thirsty or tired but, as the perfect servant, he would not do anything that was not given him of his Father.

:thumbsup: That is good enough right there to explain the point of Jesus' temptation and the difference between His and ours.

Like has a very big caveat called WITHOUT SIN.

s
 
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Arcoe

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No more puzzling than not having any opinion whatsoever.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

You haven't attempted to answer my question.

Have you resisted the devil, so he will FLEE from you?
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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It is illogical to amen a fact and then deny the same fact.

If you say the believer does have internal temptation by the tempter that is a fact. That fact also places that working 'internally.'

So, one can not logically claim that yes, the temptation of the tempter transpires within, but it does not transpire within.

Sorry. I'm not into tail chasing on this particular subject.

s

Hi Squint. Methinks you may dwell a little too far up in those Mountain Regions. You missed my point.

Yesterday my wife made (I can bet on it) a delicious choclate-ribbon cake, placing it on the table for cooling (for tomorrow alas). Now would you say that I may have been tempted 'internally' when those smells first wafted across my person? You see, the source of temptation does not have to be "within" in order to be a temptation, but it was a temptation nevertheless, yet from "without".

Satan does not have to be "within" me to tempt me (as I said, he cannot be since the Spirit dwells there and God and Satan cannot occupy the same space at the same time...hence the question...'can we go into that herd of swine'?). He (Satan) doesn't need to. I have that same sinful nature (remember both Satan and I sinned against God) that delights to do exactly what he offers to help me with. I must resist.

Coclusion: The temptation transpires within, but the source of it is without.
 
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Arcoe

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squint, here are some passages which you might help you out of your preoccupation with the devil. The devil only has a hold onto your mind if you let him. Resist the devil, don't give him any place within you, and don't have a 'mindful' fellowship with him. Be sober, be vigilant, that you may stand against his wiles.

1 Corinthians 10:20
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.


1 Corinthians 10:21
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
 
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squint

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squint, here are some passages which you might help you out of your preoccupation with the devil. The devil only has a hold onto your mind if you let him.

Oh look you almost admitted you believe the same thing as me on this subject! wow. it almost slipped out.

A. I disagree with ZERO scriptures.

B. When you have an actual opinion about whether the tempter tempts believers 'in mind' YES OR NO, you can let me know. Until then you remain with no opinion or an obscure one at best on the matter

Just remember if you answer YES you and I believe THE SAME on that matter. So I doubt you'll actually answer or you would have by now as it's what? 3rd or 4th request? I guess that is what passes for open and forthright dialog nowdays? not.

and

C. You appear to think that Jesus sinned in His Own Mind, which I personally consider to be quite heretical

s
 
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squint

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Hi Squint. Methinks you may dwell a little too far up in those Mountain Regions. You missed my point.

Yesterday my wife made (I can bet on it) a delicious choclate-ribbon cake, placing it on the table for cooling (for tomorrow alas). Now would you say that I may have been tempted 'internally' when those smells first wafted across my person? You see, the source of temptation does not have to be "within" in order to be a temptation, but it was a temptation nevertheless, yet from "without".

For Jesus, yes. For the balance of us the tempter tempts in our minds, period. I do not equate the temptation as being the same.

Satan had NOTHING WITHIN JESUS.

Satan does not have to be "within" me to tempt me

So, you are on record that there is zero temptation in mind by the tempter?

s
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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God initiates but each person can, must, and does respond....and that man indeed has free will and is not just responding to a pre-programmed determination...so though a bit lengthy I include it here for our mutual edification and apologize to Augustine for oft times blaming him for Calvin's unintentional heresy (that blames God for sin and sinners).

Pshun...read your submission, and the evidence is greatly stacked towards the doctrine of "free will". Since I have already made a statement seemingly to the contrary I would like to qualify it here, briefly.

The belief that man of his own 'free will' would seek after God is erroneous for Scripture itself declares, "There is none that seeketh after God, no, not one", Rom.3. What is it then? The point is I would never come to God, I would never seek Him out, because of my sinful nature. Like adam, all I want to do is cover in fig leaves and hide myself from Him.

But I can come. And God wants me to come. He has opened the way for me to come, through Christ. He has given His word that tells me He loves me and wants only my blessing. He sent His Spirit into the world to draw me to Himself. He uses you and hundreds like you, to tell me so, to pray for me and, hopefully, to bring me to the point where I take sides against myself...believe that only God is true and 'every man a liar'...and overcoming every inward resistence, yield, saying,"Just as I am, I come".

In that way one might say I exercised "free will" to come, but it is not solely so, for without that "Outside" Source witnessing to my inside God-given spirit, small 's', I would never have come. To Him be all the Glory!

This is what I truly believe scripture teaches about 'free will'.
 
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AllanV

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It is not so much a ceremony as a striving to push away from those things in the rebellious nature that hinder the indwelling of God powerfully.

OK, I can agree with that...it can only be attained by reckoning myself dead to the old man and alive unto God..."that Christ may dwell in your hearts" is the way Paul put it I believe.

Christ is anointing and this comes by an increase in faith with belief in God rather than self as the last step. His Love is apparent in the nature of Jesus. This can not be comprehended in the natural mind and only becomes apparent by an unfolding. It is a battle in the mind.

Again I agree. There's nothing ceremonial about it...occupation with Christ and His love for me rather than my love (or lack thereof) for Him I believe to be the key..."let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus" comes to mind.

Bring every thought into the obedience and captivity of Christ -- is difficult to achieve. But this must be done. How to do this when the ordinary lives that are lead fill the mind with all manner of thoughts.
There is a way that purifies the mind and puts to rest every small piece of a rebellious nature. The nature of Jesus covers with His Love and God indwells powerfully.
 
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