DO We Have Free Will?

[Arcoe]

Don't mean to horn in on your conversation but I think Squint may be right.

I believe temptation is a sin. When the Saviour 'was tempted' of the Devil, the sin was on the Devil's part, not the Saviour's.

And James tells us, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempted He any man".

Don't shoot the messenger.

However, squint was saying temptation is a sin. From my understanding, he is saying sin of the man being tempted. Maybe he will clarify.

 

[Arcoe]

Still quite beside the point.

Then please address how the Savior was sinless, but yet, according to your theory, He sinned when tempted.

 

[squint]

Just because one is tempted by an outside party, does not mean this is of man's will. Our free will allows us to choose to give in to the temptation or to resist it.

Uh, yeah.

Maybe the math about the number of wills in man is not adding up for you yet?

Ah 1 and ah 2.

 

[squint]

Then please address how the Savior was sinless, but yet, according to your theory, He sinned when tempted.

Uh, no. Jesus is specifically excepted from having sin or anything of Satan 'in Him.'

Satan's temptation was not 'internal'

That is why we 'listen' to Him.

and not to liars.

s

 

[Arcoe]

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Surely Jesus didn't equate being saved with STRIVING (zeal for obtaining something) to enter the strait gate.

Jesus taught synergism despite man's feeble objection.

 

[squint]

However, squint was saying temptation is a sin. From my understanding, he is saying sin of the man being tempted. Maybe he will clarify.

For the fact of evil thoughts being sin refer to Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-21, Mark 7:21-23 all showing evil thought to be sin.

And as sin, we know sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

The theft of Word also transpires in people by Satan, Mark 4:15. A sin not a cause of the man, yet transpired within their hearts. Theft is SIN and of Satan IN THE HEART doing so.

Which places that working where?

Uh, yeah.

And let's certainly OVERLOOK the thousands of devils shown to be in mankind throughout the Gospels. Nope. Certainly wouldn't want to see that, showing clearly devils IN people.

Fact is freewill in the light of scriptural fact is nearly entirely laughable entertainment courtesy of who?

Yeah, the people potentially under that blinding influence. They will be the last ones to see it because they are, in effect denying plain statements of Word showing it to be a fact.

And how much honesty does it take to admit temptation of the tempter internally in mind anyway?

NOT MUCH.

s

 

[Arcoe]

Uh, no. Jesus is specifically excepted from having sin or anything of Satan 'in Him.'

Satan's temptation was not 'internal'

That is why we 'listen' to Him.

and not to liars.

s

If Jesus' temptation wasn't internal, neither is ours.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Arcoe]

Uh, yeah.

Maybe the math about the number of wills in man is not adding up for you yet?

Ah 1 and ah 2.

Maybe God-given reason rejects such a notion. I have one will, the will being the very life of man. For what a man loves, he wills, and what he wills, he loves.

 

[Arcoe]

For the fact of evil thoughts being sin refer to Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-21, Mark 7:21-23 all showing evil thought to be sin.

And as sin, we know sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

The theft of Word also transpires in people by Satan, Mark 4:15. A sin not a cause of the man, yet transpired within their hearts. Theft is SIN and of Satan IN THE HEART doing so.

Which places that working where?

Uh, yeah.

And let's certainly OVERLOOK the thousands of devils shown to be in mankind throughout the Gospels. Nope. Certainly wouldn't want to see that, showing clearly devils IN people.

Fact is freewill in the light of scriptural fact is nearly entirely laughable entertainment courtesy of who?

Yeah, the people potentially under that blinding influence. They will be the last ones to see it because they are, in effect denying plain statements of Word showing it to be a fact.

And how much honesty does it take to admit temptation of the tempter internally in mind anyway?

NOT MUCH.

Since you don't have free will of your own, how can we be sure you are not speaking from the devil? Since you give him so much power inside yourself, I have to wonder if YOU really know if you are speaking from yourself or from the devil.

 

[AllanV]

Surely Jesus didn't equate being saved with STRIVING (zeal for obtaining something) to enter the strait gate.

Jesus taught synergism despite man's feeble objection.

Striving is what he did in the desert. He pushed the boundaries and repelled Satan.

Each Spirit lead person is able to do the same. The scriptures are not understood. The fullness of Christ, the indwelling of God. Be perfect be Holy. Bring every thought into the obedience and captivity of Christ. Christ is anointing.

This is what is to be striven for, because it is difficult to find. The way in is obscured and hidden even though the veil is lifted in Christ (the anointing)
It is only obscured and hidden to those who are perishing.

 

[Arcoe]

Striving is what he did in the desert. He pushed the boundaries and repelled Satan.

Each Spirit lead person is able to do the same. The scriptures are not understood. The fullness of Christ, the indwelling of God. Be perfect be Holy. Bring every thought into the obedience and captivity of Christ. Christ is anointing.

This is what is to be striven for, because it is difficult to find. The way in is obscured and hidden even though the veil is lifted in Christ (the anointing)
It is only obscured and hidden to those who are perishing.

I do not disagree with you, but in the context of Jesus' statement, He was answering the disciples' question, 'are there few that be saved?'

 

[AllanV]

Uh, no. Jesus is specifically excepted from having sin or anything of Satan 'in Him.'

Satan's temptation was not 'internal'

That is why we 'listen' to Him.

and not to liars.

s

Sin is transgression of the law. Satan was finally defeated when Jesus rose from the grave.
But the reality is the world is in chaos therefore who is ruling and what does it affect -- the mind is where sin is hatched from and when impulses or temptations are acted on it is complete.

The idea is not to have any thoughts with attachments that influence to act out. It is about leaving biology behind.
Expel Satan and his demons entirely. The tools are there now for all Spirit lead individuals. Walk in the spirit and the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled.

 

[squint]

Sin is transgression of the law. Satan was finally defeated when Jesus rose from the grave.

\

To what extent? It certainly wasn't elimination. People including believers are still tempted and they all still sin, and of course sin is of the devil.

Defeated can be very relative. He Overcame. That also remains for us as well. See Rev.2-3 for examples. And the god of this world is still the god of this world. And is so by Gods Directive.

But the reality is the world is in chaos therefore who is ruling and what does it affect -- the mind is where sin is hatched from and when impulses or temptations are acted on it is complete.

For purposes of testing the validity of the freewill view the fact being put on the table is that man's will is categorically not alone. The tempter is also in operation in man. That makes two wills therein and an impossible quest to claim one free when the other is also in operations.

The idea is not to have any thoughts with attachments that influence to act out. It is about leaving biology behind.
Expel Satan and his demons entirely. The tools are there now for all Spirit lead individuals. Walk in the spirit and the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled.

You can have any constructs you want. Fact is none of us with our wills calls the shots on what the tempter does.

Paul, an Apostle, wound up as the chief of sinners.

Do the math with him as an example. Paul also had evil present with him and even a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Paul was far from alone in flesh or in mind.

He did REIGN over that which he admittedly carried.

No one reigns over what they can't see they have and can't speak truthfully about it. The 'freewill' they supposedly have hasn't been shown and they can't even perceive this most elemental matter of Christianity.

s

 

[squint]

If Jesus' temptation wasn't internal, neither is ours.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

a very major difference.

 

[squint]

Since you don't have free will of your own, how can we be sure you are not speaking from the devil? Since you give him so much power inside yourself, I have to wonder if YOU really know if you are speaking from yourself or from the devil.

Only believers who speak truthfully are in truth.

The devil in men can't tell the truth donchaknow?

Oh well. Such is the fate of the suppressed will.

Relegated to either not knowing (blindness/lack of knowledge) or outright fibbing (caused by whom?)

Uh, yeah.

 

[AllanV]

I do not disagree with you, but in the context of Jesus' statement, He was answering the disciples' question, 'are there few that be saved?'

I am not understanding you entirely but being saved is something that is generally a condition of the person who has been baptize and accepted Jesus. But there is uncertainty as to whether or not they have the Holy Spirit.

I had a powerful experience of God that was not searched for but it was not until 14 years later during a fast that the understanding of scripture was more complete.

I had to initiate and actively push my way forward but I was met at every point given assistance and then had the most incredible experience.
It is quite simple but the Church as it stands has fallen victim to many interpretations and people are not being taught how to be complete. There are actually pastors actively against it.

The experience of The indwelling of God teaches everything that is needed and no other teacher is required. It says this in scriptures. Therefore what is Christianity about. There are babes in Christ but all they require is the method not endless Bible study. If the method was followed then they would experience completion with full understanding.

It is to do with the mind therefore most will not give up their familiar thoughts and functioning with sensations that come from their biology.
​

 

[AllanV]

\



No one reigns over what they can't see they have and can't speak truthfully about it. The 'freewill' they supposedly have hasn't been shown and they can't even perceive this most elemental matter of Christianity.

s

There is agreement, this realm of the mind which is well hidden has to be exposed, (or seen) confronted and dealt to. Then with a broken and contrite heart and spirit the Lord's nature, the nature of Jesus will cover. His flesh and not ours. The rebellious nature with fixtures is dealt to and only then God will indwell powerfully. There is too much emphasis on being saved (in ignorance) and then no requirement to be complete.
The sacrifice of Jesus was to give all His followers, whom God draws, the weapons to defeat Satan and the demonic realm. Immortality is entirely possible but this cannot be contemplated in the natural mind.

 

[AllanV]

Jesus said My Fathers will and my will are one. This suggests that if they are separate and not one they are free from each other. That is the only meaning of free will that makes sense. Therefore the will in man is free from God's will but as is obvious there is a penalty to this and it is death. And it must be in the mind where else could it be. Something bares influence on the mind that is a bit bigger than the mind but it is concentrated. The will is ruled by the flesh and the mind intelligently does those things to support the continuance of life. But reasoning is flawed.

The quest is for His chosen to come back to Him. He will be their God and they will be His sons. And then they are able to say my will and the fathers will are one.

 

[sunlover1]

a very major difference.

Has nothing to do with the source of the temptation.

 

[Arcoe]

a very major difference.

A very good diversion, but you said Jesus' temptations were not internal, and since He was tempted 'in ALL points' as we are, our temptations must not be internal either.

Therefore your claim that Satan's will is present in our minds is null and void, for our minds are definitely internal.