DO We Have Free Will?

[elman]

Thanks for the entertainment.

too funny

Not responsive. I wonder why. Maybe because your unable to do so reasonably.

 

[squint]

Not responsive. I wonder why. Maybe because your unable to do so reasonably.

When you manage to figure out that the tempter tempts in mind let me know.

Then you might see the futility of seeing only man therein.

s

 

[elman]

When you manage to figure out that the tempter tempts in mind let me know.

Then you might see the futility of seeing only man therein.

s

When you manage to figure out blaming Satan is avoiding your own responsibility, then you might see more clearly.

 

[squint]

When you manage to figure out blaming Satan is avoiding your own responsibility, then you might see more clearly.

Again quite beside the point.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

It is not because of God’s use of grammar that Adam is not perfect. Christ was and is perfect, but Christ was not made.


Bling, you did not answer my question: What was Adam's 'fault' having been formed by the Creator Himself?

I just today read this comment, which I believe to be true, "Every work of God is a perfect work". Could it be anything else?

Adam was a work of God. Yes, he was made. But he wasn't imperfectly made; it's erroneous to think so. That he became marred is quite another thing.

 

[Arcoe]

There is no 'if.' The fact is that temptation itself is SIN and the thought of sin IS SIN. And sin is of THE DEVIL.

Temptation is not sin. Otherwise you have a sinful Savior.

 

[squint]

Temptation is not sin. Otherwise you have a sinful Savior.

Still quite beside the point.

 

[squint]

For people who are 'slow to the party' of fact, the observation of fact put into play is that 'believers' are 'tempted' within their minds/hearts by an entity that is not them called the Tempter and/or Satan, the devil, thee old dragon, the piercing serpent.

This means that entity is within to do the tempting.

This means it is not just you there in your head. There is you as a believer and the other party doing the tempting.

It is, in short, not just YOUR supposed FREE will therein as there is obviously ANOTHER WILL therein ALSO.

zzzzzzzz

s

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Temptation is not sin. Otherwise you have a sinful Savior.

Don't mean to horn in on your conversation but I think Squint may be right.

I believe temptation is a sin. When the Saviour 'was tempted' of the Devil, the sin was on the Devil's part, not the Saviour's.

And James tells us, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempted He any man".

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

For people who are 'slow to the party' of fact, the observation of fact put into play is that 'believers' are 'tempted' within their minds/hearts by an entity that is not them called the Tempter and/or Satan, the devil, thee old dragon, the piercing serpent.

This means that entity is within to do the tempting.

This means it is not just you there in your head. There is you as a believer and the other party doing the tempting.

It is, in short, not just YOUR supposed FREE will therein as there is obviously ANOTHER WILL therein ALSO.

zzzzzzzz

Squint...again I apoligize for horning in...I agree with some of what you say but I think you need to make a distinction.
All the unregenerate are 'under the influence', shall we say, of the Devil having been "taken captive by him at his will". This can be inwardly through possession (not a common case) or overtly through temptation (a very common case), etc. You see "all" are in the enemy's camp by reason of the fall and there is a battle going for your soul and mine...the one struggling to keep us there, the Other to set us free.

Like C.S. Lewis says in "The Screwtape Letters", speaking as one of the demons, "He [meaning the enemy, the Lord] cannot temp to virtue as we can to vice". Thus, as long as unregenerate man does his own thing, even if he is a Saul, he remains in the enemy's camp.

But the moment he is set free by only He who can, then he is no longer in that camp, though he can still be borne along by the same temptor since he has yet that same old nature. BUT, now he has power should he avail of it, "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you", "Reckon yourselves dead...and alive unto God", and such verses indicate we no longer are "captives" to sin and Satan.

 

[squint]

Squint...again I apoligize for horning in...I agree with some of what you say but I think you need to make a distinction.

If it was me saying I'd rebuke myself...

All the unregenerate are 'under the influence', shall we say, of the Devil having been "taken captive by him at his will".

This can be inwardly through possession (not a common case) or overtly through temptation (a very common case), etc.

Captivity is quite beyond the subject matter put in view.

A believer DOES have temptation of the tempter, period.

This does not equate to 'control' or 'captivity' or 'possession.'

It does mean that there is another ACTIVE WILL within the will of man including that of believers in the actions of temptation of the tempter within.

You see "all" are in the enemy's camp by reason of the fall and there is a battle going for your soul and mine...the one struggling to keep us there, the Other to set us free.

Like C.S. Lewis says in "The Screwtape Letters", speaking as one of the demons, "He [meaning the enemy, the Lord] cannot temp to virtue as we can to vice". Thus, as long as unregenerate man does his own thing, even if he is a Saul, he remains in the enemy's camp.

But the moment he is set free by only He who can, then he is no longer in that camp, though he can still be borne along by the same temptor since he has yet that same old nature. BUT, now he has power should he avail of it, "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you", "Reckon yourselves dead...and alive unto God", and such verses indicate we no longer are "captives" to sin and Satan.

If you are saying a believer is never tempted by the tempter I'll take a pass on that drift. And I don't think C.S. Lewis tried to make that case either.

s

 

[steve_bakr]

OK. Now that you appear to see that there is in fact another entity 'in mind' how is it that you can not see that there are TWO functioning wills therein?

And we have not yet added the Will of God who is also functioning therein, in the WILL of the believer.

So, we technically have at this point 3 [or more] functioning wills in ONE person.

Do you even remotely see the difficulties of claiming it is just the will of the man functioning freely?

That is, in essence, an absurd logical fallacy.

The balance of your post was 'well, what happens from there.'

The points above didn't change. It's impossible to see the will of man as just the will of man because that factually, scripturally is not the case.

And just to clarify [again] as some of you just don't get it, temptation by the tempter does not equate to 'control' or 'possession.'

s

Your last sentence appears to be correct because we indeed are responsible for the decisions we make. Free will is what makes our salvation and our relationship with Christ meaningful.

 

[steve_bakr]

OK. Now that you appear to see that there is in fact another entity 'in mind' how is it that you can not see that there are TWO functioning wills therein?

And we have not yet added the Will of God who is also functioning therein, in the WILL of the believer.

So, we technically have at this point 3 [or more] functioning wills in ONE person.

Do you even remotely see the difficulties of claiming it is just the will of the man functioning freely?

That is, in essence, an absurd logical fallacy.

The balance of your post was 'well, what happens from there.'

The points above didn't change. It's impossible to see the will of man as just the will of man because that factually, scripturally is not the case.

And just to clarify [again] as some of you just don't get it, temptation by the tempter does not equate to 'control' or 'possession.'

s

Your last sentence appears to be correct because we indeed are responsible for the decisions we make. Free will is what makes our salvation and our relationship with Christ meaningful.

Sorry for the duplicate. Technical problems with the software.

 

[AllanV]

Not sure what you mean by the above when you say "that man fulfil both"...do you mean that man is now required to fulfil 'both good and evil' and this is a God directive??

To understand what good and evil is about then observe mankind and eating the fruit would mean both would be played out and completed or fulfilled.

I agree with the "radical transformation" part but I do not comprehend it as being obtained ceremonially. Like the natural man who matures from child to adult, the spiritual man too must (or should, at least) mature from babes with milk to full-grown adults desiring meat. It's not a complicated or clandestine process. It's available to every believer but not all "desire the sincere milk of the word that they may grow thereby".

It is not so much a ceremony as a striving to push away from those things in the rebellious nature that hinder the indwelling of God powerfully.
Christ is anointing and this comes by an increase in faith with belief in God rather than self as the last step. His Love is apparent in the nature of Jesus. This can not be comprehended in the natural mind and only becomes apparent by an unfolding. It is a battle in the mind.
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

 

[AllanV]

The fact that we are tempted in mind, though, doesn't necessarily mean that spirits are in our minds. Spirits are not governed by the same spacio-temporal physics that we are. The Tempter can put a suggestive thought in our mind without taking up residence there. The notion of spirits residing in our minds is akin to possession.

Everyone has a rebellious nature and this bonds every one. The Prophet Samuel said rebellion is as witch craft. Pyschologists use the phrase hypnotic suggestion to explain peer pressure amongst teenagers. This is more involved with adults.

Satan stands in God's place because he attempted this but now this spirit is in every rebellious person. Satan displaces the belief in God in the mind and is attached to those who believe in own self. This is in everyone's personality. Demons - fixtures of the mind determine how a person will respond in any given situation. These must be expelled to know and believe in God.

Satan Magnifies and projects the personality and mental bonding (witchcraft) places impressions that are retained as memories and feelings for one another. A fish lives in the sea as his natural environment. Man's natural mental environment is not easily seen for what it is.

The kingdom of God is about escaping and the hope is immortality.

 

[AllanV]

For people who are 'slow to the party' of fact, the observation of fact put into play is that 'believers' are 'tempted' within their minds/hearts by an entity that is not them called the Tempter and/or Satan, the devil, thee old dragon, the piercing serpent.

This means that entity is within to do the tempting.

This means it is not just you there in your head. There is you as a believer and the other party doing the tempting.

It is, in short, not just YOUR supposed FREE will therein as there is obviously ANOTHER WILL therein ALSO.

zzzzzzzz

s

There seems to be something that attaches to the will and directs it away from what is known to be right toward something known to be wrong. Eventually the conscience could change and the message become weak and the person would not be aware of what they had become. It is difficult to see oneself as others do. They see the faults of those traits in the personality (projected and magnified by Satan) that become hidden in the mind of the host. Everyone interacts within the Spirit of the prince of the power of the air.

 

[squint]

There seems to be something that attaches to the will and directs it away from what is known to be right toward something known to be wrong. Eventually the conscience could change and the message become weak and the person would not be aware of what they had become. It is difficult to see oneself as others do. They see the faults of those traits that become hidden in the mind of the host.

Most believers have a very hard time recognizing that the tempter tempting within places that working and worker WHERE?

uh, yeah.

This can be a very simple conversation or it can be a cascade of bucking and screaming.

Wonder why?

No. No wonder atall.

s

 

[AllanV]

Most believers have a very hard time recognizing that the tempter tempting within places that working and worker WHERE?

uh, yeah.

This can be a very simple conversation or it can be a cascade of bucking and screaming.

Wonder why?

No. No wonder atall.

s

There needs to be some acknowledgement as sinners and a true repentance.
There is a way of exposing and confronting the old mind of life experience and genetic influence with attachments redirecting the will, expelling those things that hinder knowing God as an indwelling Spirit. Christ is an anointing that must be sought and the perfect nature of Jesus will cover allowing entry into a Holy Place. The Fathers will and my will are one.
To Know the Love of God which is indescribable and in a nature that is incomprehensible in its gentleness.

 

[Arcoe]

Still quite beside the point.

Still the truth!

 

[Arcoe]

For people who are 'slow to the party' of fact, the observation of fact put into play is that 'believers' are 'tempted' within their minds/hearts by an entity that is not them called the Tempter and/or Satan, the devil, thee old dragon, the piercing serpent.

This means that entity is within to do the tempting.

This means it is not just you there in your head. There is you as a believer and the other party doing the tempting.

It is, in short, not just YOUR supposed FREE will therein as there is obviously ANOTHER WILL therein ALSO.

zzzzzzzz

s

Just because one is tempted by an outside party, does not mean this is of man's will. Our free will allows us to choose to give in to the temptation or to resist it.