DO We Have Free Will?

[elman]

Actually bling, God doesn't allow stuff to happen, He makes it happen and He freely admits responsibility for those things.



Amo 3:4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
Amo 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?



1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.



And there are many more examples like this as well.


I have said it on here before and no one would touch it with a forty foot pole but I'll say it again anyway.
Satan is very much the left hand of God and does only what the Lord requires Him to do.


Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as usual but there you go there are the scriptures for it.
God doesn't allow anything, He does it through His servants, both good and evil.

I do not believe in an evil Creator. Jesus said God is Good. John says God is love. The bible says God does not lie. This I believe. I do not believe God has Satan or an evil spirit from His throne lie and deceive for Him. A loving and truthful God is more important to me than an inerrant bible.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Yes and that is why it did not occur.

Here's something that did occur though elman, because it's from your favourite book - the one we know you believe is true:

(Eze 36:26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

(Eze 36:27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Now I understand that we're talking about Israel here, but do you still claim that God does not directly cause man to change and walk in his ways? It seems to say that God changes men's hearts and causes them to obey His rules.

What say you?

 

[elman]

Here's something that did occur though elman, because it's from your favourite book - the one we know you believe is true:

(Eze 36:26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

(Eze 36:27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Now I understand that we're talking about Israel here, but do you still claim that God does not directly cause man to change and walk in his ways? It seems to say that God changes men's hearts and causes them to obey His rules.

What say you?

Are you saying you do not believe Ezekiel 18 is true? Are you aware that Israel did not walk in the statutes of God and obey His rules?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Are you saying you do not believe Ezekiel 18 is true? Are you aware that Israel did not walk in the statutes of God and obey His rules?

Did God lie?

 

[Rick Otto]

God manipulates satan to do what God cannot do, but that does not mean God is doing it but allowing it to happen the way god allows a lots of other stuff to happen.

Which is it? Manipulate or allow?

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you saying you do not believe Ezekiel 18 is true? Are you aware that Israel did not walk in the statutes of God and obey His rules?

Are you asking this with due respect for the fact Paul pointed out that not all who are of Israel are Israel? See the difference?

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by martymonster Actually bling, God doesn't allow stuff to happen, He makes it happen and He freely admits responsibility for those things

True, He is totaly sovereign & responsible (actively or passively), but not responsible in the sense of being guilty.
I as a parent am responsible for the actions of my young children, but that doesn't make me moraly guilty of those actions. However I WILL be held legaly responsible for damages and will have to sacrifice of myself to make restitution & thus legaly whole, the injured party.

 

[squint]

True, He is totaly sovereign & responsible (actively or passively), but not responsible in the sense of being guilty.
I as a parent am responsible for the actions of my young children, but that doesn't make me moraly guilty of those actions. However I WILL be held legaly responsible for damages and will have to sacrifice of myself to make restitution & thus legaly whole, the injured party.

Determinism get's a false bad rap from the freewill camp on the 'evil God' thing.

The better forms of determinism understand that God Is Great Enough to remedy any issues that are let loose in this temporary arena. Even far Greater than the sum of all of it.

Whatever transpires in the here and now is somewhat insignificant by comparison. That's good determinism.

If God created and loosed evil to demonstrate the reality of Divine Power and Divine Mercy being a far surpassing characteristic of HIS GLORY there is nothing to bellyache about whatsoever. Just part of the plan.

s

 

[Noxot]

God only creates what he is like and so he produced good sons. our free will gives all of us individuality in God. evil exist because of free will. there is a difference in free will and providence. evil = lack, blindness, disorder, death, sloth, measurement, ect.

God is just and fair, therefore free will is real. why else would this world of multiplicity exist? do you really think God is so unjust to simply create different angels of different ranks? why exactly would God create beings with ranks when there is no rank in God? it is due to us and our free will that things are the way they are. but thanks be to God, who never changes and is fair and just and good, therefore we are not consumed. however the weak elements are consumed, because evil has no sure foundation.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Noxot God only creates what he is like and so he produced good sons. our free will gives all of us individuality in God.

Sounds like will is being confused with or equated with, personality. I don't agree.

God is just and fair, therefore free will is real.

God is totaly sovereign over all His creation. Therefore, created wills are not free, except in a very limited, relative, sense.

why else would this world of multiplicity exist?

It could with logical consistency be for the reason you first stated: God is like that. And that has no dependancy at all on freedom of man's will.

do you really think God is so unjust to simply create different angels of different ranks?

That's not unjust. Why not accuse Him of unfairness for not making us equal to Him? Your assertion seems to rest on an assumption that we are owed something, when the reality is that we owe everything & of ourselves, deserve nothing. We are made out of nothing & dust, which itself was made out of nothing. Where did we get the right to exist?

why exactly would God create beings with ranks when there is no rank in God?

Father, Son, & Holy Ghost... I'm seeing rank. Not an unloving arbitration, but definitely roles that divide power & decision making. Even Jesus claimed subordination to His Father.

it is due to us and our free will that things are the way they are. but thanks be to God, who never changes and is fair and just and good, therefore we are not consumed. however the weak elements are consumed, because evil has no sure foundation.

We have no power God has not granted us. We are not free to use it as we will, for there are consequences.

Freedom of the will is a euphemism for independance from God.

 

[BBAS 64]

I do not believe in an evil Creator. Jesus said God is Good. John says God is love. The bible says God does not lie. This I believe. I do not believe God has Satan or an evil spirit from His throne lie and deceive for Him. A loving and truthful God is more important to me than an inerrant bible.

Good Day, Elman

Well than have at it, and create a god that fits with in your flawed structure of "love and truth", give me the God of the inerrant Scripture any day of the week.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Noxot]

Sounds like will is being confused with or equated with, personality. I don't agree.

hmm how can you separate will from personality?

God is totaly sovereign over all His creation. Therefore, created wills are not free, except in a very limited, relative, sense.

what does 'totally sovereign over all His creation' mean? I feel like I have a lot of will, after all i know the one that loves me, or rather, i believe he knows me. the best food is in the kings court, why would I leave? I have free will, free will to pick a pizza or a hamburger. God is my cook, I have the best possession. I could care less about going to the lands of darkness, here where I am, there are many fruits. I have no need to go and become again waylaid by bandits, I am safe in my own country, I am a royal child after all.

It could with logical consistency be for the reason you first stated: God is like that. And that has no dependancy at all on freedom of man's will.
That's not unjust. Why not accuse Him of unfairness for not making us equal to Him? Your assertion seems to rest on an assumption that we are owed something, when the reality is that we owe everything & of ourselves, deserve nothing. We are made out of nothing & dust, which itself was made out of nothing. Where did we get the right to exist?

why did God make me if I can't have Him? am I not royalty? I was bought with a price, and that is the tip of the iceberg. if I speak little of myself, then I fear i will belittle God. God who is the head of my house, house noxot. royal blood I have been, and royal blood I will always be. God deserves me though, God deserves myself and my love, since He loves me. I can shut my eyes to love, but not for long.

we are owed whatever we do, you reap what you sow. why would God create one person 20 years of age and another 11 years of age and another of 70 years? it makes more sense that he created them all the same age. don't get me wrong, i don't accuse God, i use my will to reach out to him instead of accuse him, and when there is a person that accuses God in me, we all gather around him and stone that guy, for he ought not to live if he will not worship the God of this land. I as a noble, have the right to put to death any i see as not worthy. and let me tell you, I have reduced the population by a large amount. but that is okay because now everyone can have enough food.

Father, Son, & Holy Ghost... I'm seeing rank. Not an unloving arbitration, but definitely roles that divide power & decision making. Even Jesus claimed subordination to His Father.
We have no power God has not granted us. We are not free to use it as we will, for there are consequences.

Freedom of the will is a euphemism for independance from God.

yes this ranking mystery is quite profound to me, I hope one day to start to understand it. I see different roles too but I can't sort anything out clearly, it is a relieving feeling. God gives us things and we can use them for evil or good. it seems we agree with that. I believe true freedom is in Christ, "liberty of the sons of God" I used to think if I had true free will that God would let me do whatever I wanted. now that is starting to seem more like a trap and not true freedom. even in this land, i could kill everyone in it perhaps and then lots of zombies would come, and then I could find a way to use them for an army, but really then where would be my paradise? and besides, I have an entire universe that i own, I am a heavens of God and without him, there is no fun in existing. with God I will expand forever, for His glory, because I want to. I have this idea... 'God loves me' and i like partaking of Him. what else is their to pick? hades? i don't like being cold, I love Him, that one that made me, I don't think people get what kind of relationship we have with God. he does not do things for himself, he has no need.

0.0

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Well than have at it, and create a god that fits with in your flawed structure of "love and truth", give me the God of the inerrant Scripture any day of the week.

On this specific question (the nature of God...etc..) is your interpretation or understanding of the inerrant Scripture as equally inerrant as the writing itself supposedly is ?

 

[elman]

Good Day, Elman

Well than have at it, and create a god that fits with in your flawed structure of "love and truth", give me the God of the inerrant Scripture any day of the week.

In Him,

Bill

You mean the one that lies? You are welcome to Him.

 

[elman]

Did God lie?

I don't think so. How about you?

 

[elman]

Are you asking this with due respect for the fact Paul pointed out that not all who are of Israel are Israel? See the difference?

I am not understanding your point. My point is that when God talks about walking in His statutes, it is what God wants, not what God forces us to do.

 

[elman]

True, He is totaly sovereign & responsible (actively or passively), but not responsible in the sense of being guilty.
I as a parent am responsible for the actions of my young children, but that doesn't make me moraly guilty of those actions. However I WILL be held legaly responsible for damages and will have to sacrifice of myself to make restitution & thus legaly whole, the injured party.

God allows us to sin--act contrary to His will--be unloving to others--lie. God does not cause us to do any of that and if God did, God would be evil and we would not be.

 

[elman]

Good Day, Elman

Well than have at it, and create a god that fits with in your flawed structure of "love and truth", give me the God of the inerrant Scripture any day of the week.

In Him,

Bill

So according to you, my calling a lie, a lie is a flawed structure of truth, right?

 

[crimsonleaf]

I don't think so. How about you?

I believe that God is capable of changing man's nature, from one dead to sin to one alive to Christ, and one of the passages we aids me in this belief is taken from the one book of the bible which I know you believe to be true:

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

So, my original question again: Do you believe that God can intervene and make a real, tangible difference to man's will (which I know you believe is OK in the first place) and cause him to walk in His statutes and obey His rules? A simple yes or no will do.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Man was not made perfect (that was not possible for even God to do), but was made as “very good” in God’s perspective so that would be: “as good as it could be done”.

Bling, you believe God made the universe and everything in it and yet say that God could not make a 'perfect' man. Don't get fooled by your grammar teacher who taught you that good, very good, and perfect were ascending degrees of profficiency. When God declared something 'Good' or 'Very Good' it doesn't mean that they came short of perfection. What attribute did Adam possess that relegated him as less then perfect having come fresh from the hand of God Himself? I'd like to know.

You say: “Morally he was innocent...not knowing good or evil.” But God is innocent and He knows “good and evil” so how does knowledge of “good and evil” keep a being from being innocent?

I would not say God is "innocent" in the sense of "not knowing"...in the way a little child is innocent. But Adam and Eve, I believe, were innocent in just that way. There was nothing "in them" that predetermined their choosing the one or the other...but the moment they disobeyed they not only had more 'knowledge', but something changed within them...innocence was gone, sin had entered, and that which they did following that event was tainted by thier 'spoiled' nature. It's for this very reason that Paul tells us that the moment we believe we become a "new creation", with a "new nature", a spiritual nature, Christ's nature because, until we do, we are clothed with Adam's nature. If nothing changed with Adam's (and our) fall, there would be no need for a new, changed nature. That's why Christ is called "the Last Adam".


I would say Adam and Eve had a “flaw”, but it was a “flaw” God could not create beings without and still have the ability to acquire Godly type Love (they were not like Christ to begin with, so they were flawed).

"We will create man in our image"...a flawed one??? They were like Christ in the sense that God, the Triune God, made man in His image. Your problem is that you believe that man in the garden was only a "first installment" towards a greater and more blessed happening; therefore man who was put there was flawed, necessarily so, so that his 'sin' could open the amazing grace of God in bringing him to a fuller apprehension of Himself, or something like that. With a belief like that you would have to think that the relationship between Adam and God, Abraham and God, Moses and God, and so on down to our time, would fall short of "our relationship" for none of them "knew Christ". That isn't so! What God did was Yea and Amen. God created man, prepared the earth for him, gave him dominion over it, and communed with him in it. That was God's plan. The fact that a subtle enemy came in and spoiled all that, doesn't mean it wasn't the original plan. Adam and Eve and all who came from them would have enjoyed God 'everlastingly' had sin not come in and spoiled that. But God is Greater...He will not be defeated and so He moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. And His omnisicience does not negate the foregoing. Just because God knew in advance that "plan A" would fail does not necessarily mean He would thus go automatically to "Plan B"...or that Plan A was programmed to fail because Plan B existed...the first plan was necessary for a variety of reasons, man's "responsibility" not being the least of them.