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DO We Have Free Will?

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squint

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You gave example of people that were not acting like mature adults, but controlled by other forces so they were not responsible for their actions (like a small child is not responsible).
Uh, no. I gave an example of a man who had a Legion of devils in him and Mary M. who had 7 devils in her.

Does that look anything like a singular 'free' will in operation to you?

???

Free will does not mean you are uninfluenced by internal and outside influences it just means there are some parts of some decision you can be held accountable for making. Those part where when you did exercise your free will.


If you acknowledge the fact of the other parties there is no way to say it was only the person's 'free' will. That can't even be remotely truthful.

So why did Christ only drive out the demons from people that were obviously possessed by demons?


As it relates to this discussion I'm pointing to a simple fact that is spoken of throughout the New Testament. And that is the operation of wills other than the people that are IN the people. Freewill is impossible once this fact is acknowledged.

Can people come to their senses?



If their will was the only one involved, perhaps. You still don't realize that the other will is not controlled by the person. It is an adversarial will to the things of God and always is no matter what the person does.

Paul showed this principle in Romans 7 when he showed that 'evil' was still present with him even when he did good.

In the parable of the sower the seed goes out to everyone lot of different groups, but only those with a soft heart accept and multiply that word, but the parable does not address what and how hearts are softened and if a hard heart today could not be softened tomorrow somehow.


And every last believer who reads that always thinks they are only the 'good ground.'

If you read Mark 4:15 and see Satan entering hearts and stealing Word from within and you also see that sin is of the devil and that Christians still sin post salvation you should be able to see that no one is exempt from that worker or working.

And that in short makes freewill not only impossible, but absurd as freewill fruitlessly attempts to look only at the person's will when that is obviously not the case.

s
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Most people are sound asleep throughout the vast majority of their life. More automated machine or flesh robot than divinely free beings. Only in certain rare instances do people wake up to higher degrees of awareness that allow for what might be called "free will". So, for the most part the answer would be no. Beings who are awake continuously (like Jesus Christ or the Buddha...) are so very rare as to be the exceptions that prove the rule. Sleep walkers can't be credited with free will in any real sense of the term.

This verse sums up the automatic machine like response of the sleeper who does not do what they will but instead ends up being tossed around:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
-Romans 7:19

In fact it is not even "you" who act but the sin that dwells in you when you are asleep :

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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You say God has a “Holy nature” which I assume includes free will and does not sin, so do Adam and Eve have this “holy nature” including free will before sinning? Why did God withhold his Holy Nature from Adam and Eve?

God created a new creature in man...of less power/fewer attributes it seems than his former creation even, the angels...but neither was this creation an "equal to God" for no creation is that. We were not 'born of God' as Christ was, but man received the breath or life of God into an earthy body. The thing formed was not "Holy", but it was a 'perfect' creation. No mar or flaw was found in it (same said of Lucifer Ez.28:15) until the day in which it rebelled against his Maker. Morally it was innocent...not knowing good or evil. And having no flaw, had inward "free" will to go with or against his Creator.

The Bible does not say they were driven from the Garden because of their added knowledge or their change in nature (nor does not say their nature even changed).
But you would agree that 'something' changed and they were driven from the garden because of it. I think we may have a clue in the warning given before the event, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" [or 'dying thou shalt die' is a better rendering]. I call that a change of 'nature', but it's fine if you want to call it something else.




“As a marred vessel, his choices were not 'free' as before” is an unsupported hypothesis and is not logical. Just because a being makes one wrong free will choice, why would it mean he cannot make any more free will choices? Can we learn from our mistakes?

I think it totally logical. Here's an illustration. A young virgin makes that one mistake of not remaining in the front seat. One minute she is 'innocent', the next, and forever, she isn't. Every decision she makes after that she makes, not as a young innocent virgin, but as a young not-so-innocent maiden. Something has been 'done' that cannot be 'undone'. Thus with Adam. Once he sinned, innocence was lost, sin had entered and "every" decision he made after that was tainted with the fact that something had changed in him. And like the young girl, it wasn't only a change in 'knowledge' that had come about. He was no longer a 'virgin' as before...and the sin that had entered would forever characterize his decision-making unless...yes, that's it...unless he was 'born again'...that would give him a new nature and, in God's eyes at least, it would be like starting over. Same for the youg maiden if she could, literally and physically, be born again.

Actually the water molecules have not change and their nature is fully intact, but arsenic atoms have been added.

Yes the type or illustration always falls short but if those arsenic atoms could not be removed you probably would agree that the 'nature' of the water has been compromised. Also, I would like to ask if you would feel free to take some of that water in the illustration given if, as you say, "the water molecules have not changed and their nature is fully intact"? Tainted, isn't it?

The reason everything the nonbeliever does is of no value, is because he does not have Godly type Love motivating him, so as Paul tells us (1 Cor 13: 1-4) everything he does is worthless. That Love comes only after he gives up, surrenders and allows God to forgive him.

No, I would not totally agree. The unbeliever would not need "Godly type Love" in him to plow a field. But God says his plowing is sin. Why? Because he doesn't Love the field? You know that's nonsense. It's because he has said in his heart, "No God", "No", to God, or "There is No such thing as God"; whatever it is, he excludes God from it all; thus, he is not plowing "by faith" or trust that God will bless his labours, and as such he is doing it for some other person or purpose, "And whatsoever is not of faith, is sin". Don't you see the difference?

Not really.
Will give an outline later on the "twice dead" condition.
 
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bling

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You might figuratively say he was looking for his spiritual inheritance, what he forgot to take with him out into the world with his financial inheritance. The prodigal was a son the whole time, he just got lost & hung up in the 'briars' of the world. The point is, lost sheep get found, they don't turn into goats. How many times can a believer fall away? How many times can an unbeliever come back & get a job? Those are complications that result from a loss of perspective, not a loss of salvation.
If you believe the prodigal son was “saved” prior to leaving then a saved person can become a dead person according to Jesus’ own words. Jesus does not say: “we thought he was dead”, but says “he was dead”, when at that time the Father new he was physically alive. Dead (again by Jesus’ definition) can come to their senses and turn back.

There are three parables with three different scenarios “Coin” (does not know it is lost or the way home is sought after), “the sheep” (knows it is lost but does not know how to get home is sought after) and the son (knows he is lost and knows the way home, so no one goes after him).

70 x 7 is how many times.

What would have happened to the prodigal son if he had come to his senses realized he was only getting what he deserved and stayed there and died? (would he have been lost?)


There's different ways of approaching that. One might be to see it in terms of our need for Him to do that... & then can you think why the world might need to know of His power & wrath?

Those that have not made a free will decision yet to accept God’s forgiveness might need to realize the consequences of not accepting God’s help.


That would be one of probably several good reasons.
But here you frame the will as not being free of the need for help, so I'm suddenly less impressed with your criteria for freedom. (But that said, I do have to admit I'm a workin' slave for "the man", lol)
LOL!, sorry, no disrespect, I love being able to talk theology like that. The idea of God being neurotic is great premise for a ton of jokes.
Seriously tho bro, that would be a definition of someone less than God, wouldn't it? I mean, my understanding is that 'all things work for the good of those who love Him".
What are you're thoughts? Have I missed an issue?

I see everything being explained by man’s objective, but we may not be in agreement on what the objective is:

A tree brings glory to God by being a tree, how is man different from a tree in bringing glory?

Can a person or group of people not bring glory to God, if so how?

How is God glorified and is there something I can “do” to glorify Him or will I just glorify Him no matter what I “do”?

Can man effect God’s glory?
 
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bling

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God is sovereign, either you believe our actions are in His plan our you dont.Cant have it both ways, our decisions are compatible with His will, thats the God of scripture.
Why can it not be fully in God’s plans to provide humans with free will enough so some of them would accept the greatest gift God could give? So a totally unselfishly God is doing everything for the sake of those few that will become like He is in that they will obtain Godly type Love, that can only come as the result of a free will choice.
 
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BBAS 64

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Why can it not be fully in God’s plans to provide humans with free will enough so some of them would accept the greatest gift God could give? So a totally unselfishly God is doing everything for the sake of those few that will become like He is in that they will obtain Godly type Love, that can only come as the result of a free will choice.

It is a free will choice, the issue is it is not our will, but God's will that is free to do what so ever he chooses.

As to the first part, Scripture does not teach that plan.

In Him,

Bill
 
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bling

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Uh, no. I gave an example of a man who had a Legion of devils in him and Mary M. who had 7 devils in her.

Does that look anything like a singular 'free' will in operation to you?

And I gave you examples of individuals that are not capable of making free will moral choices, so not everyone reaches the point of ever being able to make a free will choice to accept God’s help. These people (like and unborn baby that dies) have a lesser objective in their life, but are needed to help mature adults grow and show Godly type Love.


If you acknowledge the fact of the other parties there is no way to say it was only the person's 'free' will. That can't even be remotely truthful.
We hold people responsible for their decisions and not for being misguided into make wrong decisions they are not responsible for. God looks at the hearts of people.



As it relates to this discussion I'm pointing to a simple fact that is spoken of throughout the New Testament. And that is the operation of wills other than the people that are IN the people. Freewill is impossible once this fact is acknowledged.




If their will was the only one involved, perhaps. You still don't realize that the other will is not controlled by the person. It is an adversarial will to the things of God and always is no matter what the person does.

I am getting the idea you think everyone is or was demon possessed and controlled by these demons?

What purpose do these demons provide for the good of those that Love God?

Did Peter allow satan to come into his life at the last supper or did demons just go where ever they want?

If the demon is driven out, whose responsibility is it fill the person’s life with good, so the demons will not return with their friends?



Paul showed this principle in Romans 7 when he showed that 'evil' was still present with him even when he did good.


I see Paul using the a style called “Present Historical Tense” for lots of reasons in Romans 7. So are you saying Paul was demon possessed all through his life?

And every last believer who reads that always thinks they are only the 'good ground.'

Actually I see myself as being all those different soils at different times in my life.


If you read Mark 4:15 and see Satan entering hearts and stealing Word from within and you also see that sin is of the devil and that Christians still sin post salvation you should be able to see that no one is exempt from that worker or working.
As Christians we have deity living inside of us, so do demons also live in us?
And that in short makes freewill not only impossible, but absurd as freewill fruitlessly attempts to look only at the person's will when that is obviously not the case.

There are adults that are demon possessed beyond their control thus without a free will (they need to be cared for like an immature child) and there are mature adults that can make free will choices yet allow demons to internally influence them, but it is still their choice and these demons cannot take all the free will away from these individuals, so they should be treated as having a choice.

I see logic behind God allowing demons to roam around if at least some people have free will, but what purpose do demons have if man does not have free will?
 
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bling

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Most people are sound asleep throughout the vast majority of their life. More automated machine or flesh robot than divinely free beings. Only in certain rare instances do people wake up to higher degrees of awareness that allow for what might be called "free will". So, for the most part the answer would be no. Beings who are awake continuously (like Jesus Christ or the Buddha...) are so very rare as to be the exceptions that prove the rule. Sleep walkers can't be credited with free will in any real sense of the term.

This verse sums up the automatic machine like response of the sleeper who does not do what they will but instead ends up being tossed around:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
-Romans 7:19

In fact it is not even "you" who act but the sin that dwells in you when you are asleep :

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I see Paul using a style called “Present Historical Tense” for lots of reasons in Romans 7.

So what is man’s objective while here on earth?
 
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squint

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And I gave you examples of individuals that are not capable of making free will moral choices, so not everyone reaches the point of ever being able to make a free will choice to accept God’s help. These people (like and unborn baby that dies) have a lesser objective in their life, but are needed to help mature adults grow and show Godly type Love.


Are you seriously trying to say that devils in those aforementioned people, Mary M. and the man of the Gadarenes were not other entities, but a mental disorder?

Please clarify.


We hold people responsible for their decisions and not for being misguided into make wrong decisions they are not responsible for. God looks at the hearts of people.


I can certainly see how you could come to that conclusion if you viewed the thought activity of people as alone.

Scripture does not make that case.



I am getting the idea you think everyone is or was demon possessed and controlled by these demons?


You are welcome to try to avoid the factual observation by sensationalizing it. That won't cut it.

IF there is another or other wills operational in mankind, which there CLEARLY is, possession itself is not required nor is 'total control.'

The point is that nothing that any such persons do is 'alone in thought' therefore it is impossible to claim it is one or the other and even less possible to claim the person as 'free in mind' when it is not just them.

The fact of demonic intrusion into peoples minds and bodies is well beyond dispute. The fact of it is on nearly every page of the New Testament Gospels.

Jesus even talked to Satan himself in Peter for example, Satan entered Judas, and Jesus and addressed 'children of the devil' in Pharisees.
And this is the 'short list.'

What purpose do these demons provide for the good of those that Love God?
Did Peter allow satan to come into his life at the last supper or did demons just go where ever they want?


What in the world does 'allowance' have to do with it?

If a completely different entity than Peter had access to his mind and body how are you going to blame Peters will alone or term it FREE???

That's been the point of this exercise. To show the FACT that all mankind are, at a MINIMUM, subject to the potential of this type of INTRUSION at any time. Even when they were standing right next to Jesus Himself.

s
 
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Tornero

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We have free will to choose to be evil or kind.

God made us this way because a person who is kind and has no evil, didn't have a choice. Without choice we are just robots.

God is all forgiving and loving, god would forgive anyone who made a bad choice, but its the sinners choice to except the fathers forgiveness.
 
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bling

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God created a new creature in man...of less power/fewer attributes it seems than his former creation even, the angels...but neither was this creation an "equal to God" for no creation is that. We were not 'born of God' as Christ was, but man received the breath or life of God into an earthy body. The thing formed was not "Holy", but it was a 'perfect' creation. No mar or flaw was found in it (same said of Lucifer Ez.28:15) until the day in which it rebelled against his Maker. Morally it was innocent...not knowing good or evil. And having no flaw, had inward "free" will to go with or against his Creator.
Man was not made perfect (that was not possible for even God to do), but was made as “very good” in God’s perspective so that would be: “as good as it could be done”.

You say: “Morally it was innocent...not knowing good or evil.” But God is innocent and He knows “good and evil” so how does knowledge of “good and evil” keep a being from being innocent?

I would say Adam and Eve had a “flaw”, but it was a “flaw”, God could not create beings without and still have the ability to acquire Godly type Love (they were not like Christ to begin with, so they were flawed).


But you would agree that 'something' changed and they were driven from the garden because of it. I think we may have a clue in the warning given before the event, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" [or 'dying thou shalt die' is a better rendering]. I call that a change of 'nature', but it's fine if you want to call it something else.


What changed by their sinning was the fact that they showed under the Garden type scenario they could not fulfill their objective, so lots will have to change to provide a better scenario for humans to fulfill their objective. Dying was added to the new scenario, but is death bad in and off itself?

God lists out all the changes, but never says “man’s nature changed”, the big one being knowledge of good and evil so there were a lot more ways for humans to sin, but is that really bad? Would it be better if we went back to just one way to sin like “being selfish” was the one way, would that help?


I think it totally logical. Here's an illustration. A young virgin makes that one mistake of not remaining in the front seat. One minute she is 'innocent', the next, and forever, she isn't. Every decision she makes after that she makes, not as a young innocent virgin, but as a young not-so-innocent maiden. Something has been 'done' that cannot be 'undone'. Thus with Adam. Once he sinned, innocence was lost, sin had entered and "every" decision he made after that was tainted with the fact that something had changed in him. And like the young girl, it wasn't only a change in 'knowledge' that had come about. He was no longer a 'virgin' as before...and the sin that had entered would forever characterize his decision-making unless...yes, that's it...unless he was 'born again'...that would give him a new nature and, in God's eyes at least, it would be like starting over. Same for the youg maiden if she could, literally and physically, be born again.

As I have shown: God has knowledge and yet still has free will, so added “knowledge” would not remove man’s free will. Any and all knowledge and experiences influence our decisions, but it is often how we let this knowledge and experience influences us that really counts. Tragedies can harden our hearts or soften our hearts depending on how we receive them.


Yes the type or illustration always falls short but if those arsenic atoms could not be removed you probably would agree that the 'nature' of the water has been compromised. Also, I would like to ask if you would feel free to take some of that water in the illustration given if, as you say, "the water molecules have not changed and their nature is fully intact"? Tainted, isn't it?

Distillation can easily separate the water from the arsenic, so the water I would drink.


No, I would not totally agree. The unbeliever would not need "Godly type Love" in him to plow a field. But God says his plowing is sin. Why? Because he doesn't Love the field? You know that's nonsense. It's because he has said in his heart, "No God", "No", to God, or "There is No such thing as God"; whatever it is, he excludes God from it all; thus, he is not plowing "by faith" or trust that God will bless his labours, and as such he is doing it for some other person or purpose, "And whatsoever is not of faith, is sin". Don't you see the difference?

The sinner (nonbeliever without Godly type Love) is plowing the field with the wrong attitude so he is sinning, so it is sin.
 
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bling

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It is a free will choice, the issue is it is not our will, but God's will that is free to do what so ever he chooses.

As to the first part, Scripture does not teach that plan.

In Him,

Bill
You say: “God's will that is free to do what so ever he chooses.” So can God do anything less than the absolute perfect thing that can be done? Can God be unjust? Can God lie?
The first part is the plan i read about in scripture, but you have to read it all and not just pull verses out of context.
 
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bling

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Is having someone else lie for Him about the same thing?
God manipulates satan to do what God cannot do, but that does not mean God is doing it but allowing it to happen the way god allows a lots of other stuff to happen.
 
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martymonster

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God manipulates satan to do what God cannot do, but that does not mean God is doing it but allowing it to happen the way god allows a lots of other stuff to happen.


Actually bling, God doesn't allow stuff to happen, He makes it happen and He freely admits responsibility for those things.



Amo 3:4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
Amo 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?



1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.



And there are many more examples like this as well.


I have said it on here before and no one would touch it with a forty foot pole but I'll say it again anyway.
Satan is very much the left hand of God and does only what the Lord requires Him to do.


Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.



I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as usual but there you go there are the scriptures for it.
God doesn't allow anything, He does it through His servants, both good and evil.
 
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Rick Otto

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Well,... I view "allow" as meaning He doesn't do it Himself, but He is still in control because He could choose to stop allowing, just as He told satan when & where to stop.
But this is an excellent example of God being totaly sovereign & still man has personal responsibility - not a puppet or robot. Just like in Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The lie I was referring to can be found in 1Kings22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be alying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put alying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
 
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bling

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Actually bling, God doesn't allow stuff to happen, He makes it happen and He freely admits responsibility for those things.



Amo 3:4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
Amo 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?



1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.



And there are many more examples like this as well.


I have said it on here before and no one would touch it with a forty foot pole but I'll say it again anyway.
Satan is very much the left hand of God and does only what the Lord requires Him to do.


Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.



I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as usual but there you go there are the scriptures for it.
God doesn't allow anything, He does it through His servants, both good and evil.
Some would say and even scripture can be interpreted to say: since God allows it God is doing it. If we can stop some tragedy from happening and do not stop it we can be held accountable, but is that the same for God?
Why is God causing all these tragedies?
 
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Maximillia

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Hi Sunlover

I really like what you wrote I find it beautiful.

My pastor recently made a sermon on this topic, this is one of the most difficult concept for my brain to absorb.

He says that yes we have free will AND at the same time God knows the beginning, the end and everything in between. So for example if I have free will and don't even know my future choice how does he know?
I thought of this for quite some time and am beginning to understand this complicated truth which is absolutely awesome.
Many blessings to you.
 
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