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Why does God not stop the evil?

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Archaeopteryx

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Are you saying the Muslim has a good argument? LOL ROFL:doh:

He can say what he wants, I assure you, men like Osama Bin Laden who funded such terrorist acts would be seen as being wrong and evil regardless of their arguments about God's commands.

He was wrong. Period.

And I know you agree, even though you may not admit it on this forum. :thumbsup:

No, I am saying that his argument is fundamentally the same as yours:"God wills it; therefore it is right". The only difference is in the content, which varies according to your religious opinion.
 
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Elioenai26

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No, I am saying that his argument is fundamentally the same as yours:"God wills it; therefore it is right". The only difference is in the content, which varies according to your religious opinion.

In my discussions on objective moral values and duties, I am not concerned with where these objective moral values and duties come from or even how we know them.

I am concerned right now in showing that they do exist. This is a matter of ontology.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Even assuming the existence of a god, and that he 'wills' certain moral obligations, we have no means of discerning what they are. No apologist, anywhere, ever, has outlined a workable epistemology of 'revelation'. In the and, we'd be left figuring morailty out on our own, whether he existed or not.

'God-based morality' is a moral philosophy without an epistemology. It is therefor worthless.
 
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Dave Ellis

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If EVERYONE were moral subjectivists there would be no law to enforce. Thank goodness most people in the world actually believe hitting people in the face just because the way they look is wrong regardless of the opinion of the one doing the hitting.:thumbsup:



I have explained in clear English multiple times why this is not the case.

Simply restating the same assertion over and over again isn't going to get you any closer to proving your point. It has been shown to be an invalid assessment of reality.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I can arbitrate on them real easy. I can say it is objectively wrong to fly planes into building so you can kill the maximum number of people who do not share your religious beliefs.

The subjectivist cant say that.


The guys who flew the planes into the twin towers said their God objectively told them to do that, and they would be honoured in heaven as Martyrs.

This is what happens when you have a moral system based on authoritarianism, faith and blind obedience, rather than one built on logic, reason, empathy and evidence.
 
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Elioenai26

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Even assuming the existence of a god, and that he 'wills' certain moral obligations, we have no means of discerning what they are. No apologist, anywhere, ever, has outlined a workable epistemology of 'revelation'. In the and, we'd be left figuring morailty out on our own, whether he existed or not.

'God-based morality' is a moral philosophy without an epistemology. It is therefor worthless.

And you are attacking ontology with epistemology...

That is a no no...

This is fundamental undergrad philosophy. It simply does not follow that since we cannot know (x) that therefore (x) necessarily does not exist.

Objective facts are true and exist independently of our knowledge of them. For example, scientists discovered through various observations of evidence that the earth was more of a round shape. It simply does not follow that there was no objective truth about the earths shape prior to this discovery. The OBJECTIVE TRUTH OF THE EARTHS SHAPE was true before we discovered it was round.

Likewise, objective moral values and duties can exist even if we do not know where they come from or how to apprehend them.:thumbsup:
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The guys who flew the planes into the twin towers said their God objectively told them to do that, and they would be honoured in heaven as Martyrs.

This is what happens when you have a moral system based on authoritarianism, faith and blind obedience, rather than one built on logic, reason, empathy and evidence.

I don't think he grasps the point that the Muslim extremist apologist in my scenario is reasoning in exactly the same way that he is.
 
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Elioenai26

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The guys who flew the planes into the twin towers said their God objectively told them to do that, and they would be honoured in heaven as Martyrs.

Your usage of the word objective in that context is not even necessary. Nor would any Muslim say that. All they would say is at most, God told me to do it.

This is what happens when you have a moral system based on authoritarianism, faith and blind obedience, rather than one built on logic, reason, empathy and evidence.

I agree. Islamic terrorists are objectively wrong. They are wrong even if they think God told them to do it.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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And you are attacking ontology with epistemology...

That is a no no...

This is fundamental undergrad philosophy. It simply does not follow that since we cannot know (x) that therefore (x) necessarily does not exist.

Objective facts are true and exist independently of our knowledge of them. For example, scientists discovered through various observations of evidence that the earth was more of a round shape. It simply does not follow that there was no objective truth about the earths shape prior to this discovery. The OBJECTIVE TRUTH OF THE EARTHS SHAPE was true before we discovered it was round.

Likewise, objective moral values and duties can exist even if we do not know where they come from or how to apprehend them.:thumbsup:

Perhaps you missed this bit: "In the and, we'd be left figuring morailty out on our own, whether he existed or not."
 
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Dave Ellis

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This is an argument for the existence of objective moral values and duties, not an argument against it.

Why is it wrong in every society to unjustifiably kill people? Because it is just like saying 2+2=5 is wrong in every society. It is an objective fact. It is not based on people's subjective opinion.

If i were to say it is my subjective opinion that 2+2=5, you would say I was wrong. I would be wrong even if i thought i was right or even if my society said it was 5.

Likewise, if i say it is good to rape helpless women so i can have pleasure, you would say I was wrong, even if it was my opinion i was right.

Duh! :doh:

Even if is referring to an objective reality. This is elementary.

I have refuted your math argument already as well... why do you insist on rehashing the same nonsensical arguments over and over again?

You need to display evidence that anything you speak of above is actually objective. All you have done is (subjectively I may add) assert it is.


Exactly. Societies whose moral laws are based on unchanging objective moral values and duties.

To prove this, every criminal court in every society in the world will judge the unjustifiable taking of a person's life as objectively wrong. Its called murder.

THAT MEANS THAT IT IS WRONG EVEN IF THE MURDERER THINKS IT IS RIGHT.

What is so hard to understand?

There is not a single society on the face of the planet today who has an unchanged or unchanging view on morality or ethics. Even within the last 100 years, there has been very major changes in many areas.

And criminal courts do not find anything objectively wrong. Laws are based on subjective reasoning, debated on by governments. If it was objective, there would be no debate required. Every country would have one set of laws, and they would have never changed throughout history.

And what does the murderer's opinions have to do with anything? You are awfully wrapped up in this idea that all moral opinions are equally as valid. Only a sociopath could possibly look at morality that way, and society is not made up of sociopaths.

We subjectively agree as a society that murder is wrong, and therefore anyone who breaks our moral code will be punished as law requires.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Your usage of the word objective in that context is not even necessary. Nor would any Muslim say that. All they would say is at most, God told me to do it.

Are you joking? Martyrs are specifically stated to receive extra rewards in heaven. There is nothing holier or more righteous than being a martyr in Islam.

Not only would the hijackers say their actions were based on an objective morality, but suicide bombers, and many other muslims would say that as well.

The problem is, their "objective" morality clashes with your "objective" morality. And neither one of you have any evidence whatsoever it's objective in the first place.

I agree. Islamic terrorists are objectively wrong. They are wrong even if they think God told them to do it.

Which is your subjective opinion.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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And you are attacking ontology with epistemology...

Actually, I'm granting you the ontology. You don't have an epistemology.

It simply does not follow that since we cannot know (x) that therefore (x) necessarily does not exist.

Again, I grant you X.

Again, not knowing X bereaves your moral philosophy of any functional worth.

Objective facts are true and exist independently of our knowledge of them.

Again, even granting their existence, you have no idea what they are, and so can't model your behavior after them.

Likewise, objective moral values and duties can exist even if we do not know where they come from or how to apprehend them.

Which means your moral philosophy is worthless. It has zero relevance to any real world moral consideration.

This is as useless as saying 'there exists some objectively perfect cookie recipe, which we have no means or method of discerning.'

In the end, we're left having to use the cookie recipes we've got, which is exactly what we'd be doing if this nebulous 'objectively perfect' recipe did not exist at all.

In a world where impossible to ascertain objective moral values and duties exist, we are left to our own devices.

In a world where impossible to ascertain objective moral values and duties do not exist, we are left to our own devices.

I'm always frustrated when my fellow atheists let this type of argument drag on into areas it has no business being. This apologetic decapitates itself right out of the gate.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Are you joking? Martyrs are specifically stated to receive extra rewards in heaven. There is nothing holier or more righteous than being a martyr in Islam.

Not only would the hijackers say their actions were based on an objective morality, but suicide bombers, and many other muslims would say that as well.

The problem is, their "objective" morality clashes with your "objective" morality. And neither one of you have any evidence whatsoever it's objective in the first place.



Which is your subjective opinion.

Since there is no way for us to obtain knowledge about the supernatural, there will always remain uncertainty as to whether any 'objective' divine directive actually stems from the divine. Moral claims thus become reduced to bare assertions of "God wills it; therefore it is right." Whose God wills what seems to depend on the individual believer and his religion. This is what happens when moral claims are reduced to supernatural claims and those supernatural claims are to be taken on faith.
 
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quatona

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Moral subjectivists are people.
I know.

People want justice to be granted to them in courts of law when they have been wronged. For example, if you had a daughter who was the apple of your eye and your very heart, and this daughter of yours was brutally raped and beaten and left paralyzed for the rest of her life, you as a person, would want justice.

But if everyone thought like a moral subjectivist does (which you no doubt think is the only viable view because, as you say, there are no objective moral facts, which by the way is something you cannot prove because you cannot prove the non-existence of something, but I digress) then you would not be granted justice for no one could arbitrate between the rapist and you and your daughter.
You still aren´t telling me what I can´t do.

In fact, if everyone were a moral subjectivist like you, the man would not have even been arrested and brought to trial. There would be no police to arrest him. For law enforcement exists to enforce laws. Maybe you have heard of laws before?
1. Yes, and this shows me that you don´t even read my posts. I have brought laws up a few posts earlier.
2. You are still not telling me what I can´t do.
They are things you break and are punished for...you know like rape, murder etc. etc.
Yes, they are made by humans. How is it impossible for humans to make rules and laws without there being an objective morality?

But in your fantasy world where everyone determines for themselves what is, then the very idea or concept of law enforcement would not exist.
Why not?
For law enforcement carries with it inherently the idea of what is right behavior and wrong behavior. Of what ought to be done or thought and what ought not to be done or thought.
Yes, sure. Except that there needn´t be an explicit or implicit "objectively" added to this "right/wrong".
Humans have a tendency to make laws (just like OTOH they have a tendency to break them), and in the absence of objective morality they do, and different people, cultures, societies, groups, families have different rules and laws. That describes the existing world to a T.
Police exist to make sure people conduct their lives accordingly. But in your fantasy world, there would be no objective basis for determining what laws should be enforced.
No "objective" basis (not even the concept of such) is needed for humans to create laws, rules, agreements and to enforce them, in the first place.

In fact, the idea of right and wrong behavior would be non-existent.
The idea of "objectively" right/wrong behaviour wouldn´t exist.
Remember: The question you were trying to answer was: What is it a moral subjectivist can not do, what he can´t live without being inconsistent?
By simply repeating the definition of moral subjectivism over and over you aren´t making any progress.
You would only have men's unbridled lusts and passions and preferences and desires. This is the world that Dostoyevksy and Nietzsche envisioned without an objective basis for morality.
You would have to discuss their ideas with them.

If there is no objective basis for morality, everything is permitted.
So there´d be nothing that I could not do as a moral subjectivst.
With that little bumper sticker phrase you have just said the opposite of what you were actually out to demonstrate.


We should judge an ethical system by the character it produces in its adherents. What kind of man would a man be who had no one or nothing to hold him accountable except his own will?
That may be an interesting question but it is not relevant for the point you have been asked to substantiate.
Again you merely shift the goalposts. Try to be a bit more focussed.

(In the interest of a focussed discussions I omitted the part where you digressed into insults and personal reproaches.)

Bottom line: You still haven´t substantiated your idea that there is no way to live consistently as a subjectivist.

Try again, or better yet, already retract the statement that you have proven to be unable to substantiate in dozens of posts.
 
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KCfromNC

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So... which view do you proclaim is true?

I don't remember proclaiming any of them as true. Why do you ask?

I still don't see any actual evidence for objective morality here. Did you copy and paste the wrong passage from reasonablefaith.org?

If you have to be convinced, or need someone to prove to you that sexually molesting a woman for pleasure at the expense of her dignity, honor, emotional and physical welfare and respect is wrong independent of people's opinions, then you either:
Again, posting an example which provokes strong feelings and opinions is hardly a good argument for the objective truth of morality outside human opinion. When are you going to get around to the objective evidence for this alleged objective morality?
 
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KCfromNC

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They are wrong even if they think God told them to do it.

So you're saying that we shouldn't accept statements from random people telling us that they know objective morality comes from God? That seems to be an abrupt about-face on your part.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I don't remember proclaiming any of them as true. Why do you ask?

I still don't see any actual evidence for objective morality here. Did you copy and paste the wrong passage from reasonablefaith.org?

Again, posting an example which provokes strong feelings and opinions is hardly a good argument for the objective truth of morality outside human opinion. When are you going to get around to the objective evidence for this alleged objective morality?

I think that is an interesting, and perhaps answerable, question. Is there any evidence for some sort of morality that might be called objective? I don't think the question is answerable by religion though, which is where Elioenai26 is at a stumbling block. Religion may provide the feel of an objective morality, but it must be taken on faith, which is problematic because it prevents us from critically examining conflicting religiously based moral claims. Sometimes even the very notion of critically examining these claims is rebuked as a sinful lapse of faith. This is not good because it means that thinking deeply about moral problems can sometimes be viewed as a flaw in a person's moral character. "The answers are all in the back of The Book, so why are you thinking about them!"
 
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