DO We Have Free Will?

[bling]

It always stuns me a little how people don't seem to realize when they are giving themselves full credit for a salvation God must've only made possible for them to achieve themselves by an act of will.

The prodigal son made a free will choice to return to his father seeking a job, which allowed the Father to shower blessings on the son, but can any of the sons action be to his credit toward these blessings?

This assumes God cannot save everyone instead of dealing with the fact that even tho He could, He chose not to.
It ignores the explicitly stated objective in Rom9:22-23 for why God chose not to save everyone.
What is it about everyone that makes you think God owes them anything?

God owes everyone: justice, fairness, consistency, Love and truth, since that is the way He is said to be. God cannot turn and be unjust, since He said He is just and does not lie.

As far as Romans 9: 22-23 I have explained that before:

Ro. 9: 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?


Paul just got through talking about God (the potter) making vessels with a special purposes (represent the Jewish race) and vessels made for a common purpose (representing the gentiles). From both these groups; some will wind up being destroyed (fitted for destruction by the choices they made) and the others will wind up accepting God’s mercy and thus be glorified (both Jewish and gentile Christians).

Bottom line it does not matter how you were made to begin with (in Ro. That means Jewish made for a special purpose or Gentile made for a common purpose).

No matter how you look at Romans 9 it does not tell us why God chose not give everyone saving faith if they do not have free will. If they have free will then it does not matter in the final analysis if they were made for a special purpose or common purpose their salvation is still up to their free will.

 

[4LivingCreations]

The issue is very simple.
There are physical biblical and real life examples of the spiritual things all around us.

The spiritual concept of "no free will" is reflected in the physical example of rape.

For God to take a bride without her consent and, in the case that she is drunk, without her knowledge.

Since God is righteous, He will not do such a thing. Otherwise He could have stopped with monkeys, robots that are unaware of Him and thus unable to choose.

 

[bling]

I don't assert there ever was free will. "Free" is relative. One needs to SPECIFY "free of WHAT".

You are making a different argument against free will then Shiloh is making. So I will address your take on it. The only “free will” choice a mature adult has to make is accepting or rejecting the creator’s help.

We are talking about the specific will to make a spiritual choice & I already told you 1Cor2:14 tells us explicitly that we are unawarw & thus uninterested in anything spiritual until we have a living spirit ourselves.

1 Cor. 2: 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

The nonbeliever is without the Spirit and is not seeking Spiritual things, but the nonbeliever for selfish reasons can seek and accept help from his enemy, the same as the prodigal son (selfishly) can return home looking for a job.

My point with the Mark 4 reference was to point out we still deal with doubt, even after being saved by grace - saved from spiritual death by being given spiritual life, the only way to have faith (belief).
To those spiritualy born again, (saved)it is the power of God,
Your will is not free to make a spiritual decision because it has no living spirit to direct it,
There is more to a person than will.

I fully agree the nonbeliever without the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot make spiritual choices.

It tells us why He chose not to save everyone.

That fact alone prohibts freedom of everyone's will. No matter what we will, not all will be saved.

When we say the reason for destroying the wicked was: “to show his wrath and make his power known” that does not answer why He needed to do that?

If the reason is: “To help others that are willing, to make the free will decision to allow God to help them, sooner than later” then it is logical and Loving.

If the reason is: “To fill some personal issue God is having” that is not logical or Loving.

 

[bling]

Does this guy look like he had free will?

Luke 8:
27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.


How about Mary M?

2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

These types of accounts are written throughout the N.T.

This is why I keep the discussion to mature adults (those mentally capable of making a free will choice) and not the mentally impaired, small children, unborn babies, and others. The Bible does not address these individuals and we usually just leave it up to God’s loving mercy. I would say a demon possessed person is not mature and thus responsible for his/her actions (similar to a baby).

It shows in every case that mankind is not alone in flesh or mind in these cases.

Never suggested he was. Man is only held accountable for his free will decisions and not the decisions that were made for him by demons or the servants of satan.

For those who just can not seem to get the picture, that means an entirely different entity that is not the man or the woman is also 'within' the bodies of those people. Those entities also have a mind/will that is their own.

Are all nonbelievers demon possessed and Jesus just removed some demons from a few people?

Mankind's will can not be free period in the light of these kinds of facts. It's a ridiculous premise to begin with.

Satan is around influencing our decisions through temptations like satan did with Eve, but like with Eve it is still man’s decision.

Who made devils? Who gave them access to mankind's mind/body?

God made satan and demons and allowed them to sin. After they these spiritual beings sinned, God utilizes them to bring about opportunities for willing individuals to choose his help and grow their Love.

Demons and satan are limited by God to what they can do to man, but like the blind man in John 9:1-7, those individuals that are possessed provide wonderful opportunities for Christians to show God’s Love to others.

Who gave mankind a will that can't read and perceive this simple fact?

What fact are you talking about?

I might suggest not:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned,

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If you as a believer can't think your way through the above facts I can conclude some matters.

Not every seed that sprouted up fell to satan.

There are those that continue to refuse to place their trust in God (believe not) and those will be lost to the god of this world.

The condition is universal to all men. It's Gods choice who hears and who doesn't.

“Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth?”

“It's Gods choice who hears and who doesn't” so how is that fair and just if there is no difference between those that are made to hear and those that are not made to hear? Where is the Love for those not chosen?

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Free will does not mean you are neutral, that is not the same thing, God has free will and God is not what we might call neutral?

Bling, I'm not sure I know how to say the same thing in a different way. I'll try. After the fall God said of Adam, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". Which means they did not 'know it' before. But unlike God, who 'knows' good and evil but has that Holy nature that cannot sin, the ramifications for man were greater than simply the knowing...with the disobedience (sin), came also a change in his nature and that same verse goes on to say that "lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" God sent him forth from the garden. See, a change in 'knowledge' only would not have required that, but a change in nature did.

Adam had increased knowledge not decreased free will, there is a huge difference.
Before the bite Adam 'knew' what God had said about the tree of life (not to eat of it) and he also 'knew' what it was that Eve was offering to him (otherwise the bite could not be classed as disobedience). But at that very moment his choice was 'free' (not free from outside influences such as the serpent, the woman, etc.) but 'free' in the sense that ther was as yet 'no flaw' in the nature of the creature fresh from the Potter's hand. There was no 'inner tendency' to yield one way or the other. The vessel became marred as soon as he disobeyed. After that, as a marred vessel, his choices were not 'free' as before.
Let me illustrate with a poor example. You have a pure liquid, water, which is 'free', we'll say of any contaminants. Like Adam before sin. Now introduce arsenic. The water's very nature has changed. Now everything it touches (into which it is introduced) becomes tainted with that which tainted the water. All of us descendents from Adam have become tainted with that which tainted him, and so, in that sense, we are not as 'free' as he before the bite. You and I are, by inherited nature, skewed as to sin. And every unregenerate person has this nature, and this nature only, and therefore everything that person does, in that state, is tainted with sin. That is the only way that we can understand that "the plowing of the wicked is sin".


Jude talks about being "twice dead". Do you have any thought how being that works into our discussion?

 

[squint]

This is why I keep the discussion to mature adults (those mentally capable of making a free will choice) and not the mentally impaired, small children, unborn babies, and others. The Bible does not address these individuals and we usually just leave it up to God’s loving mercy. I would say a demon possessed person is not mature and thus responsible for his/her actions (similar to a baby).

That had zero to do with the scriptures I cited showing people are not alone in their flesh/minds.

Never suggested he was. Man is only held accountable for his free will decisions and not the decisions that were made for him by demons or the servants of satan.

So you can see that there are in fact another or 'other' wills transpiring in such?

You might also see that it is quite pointless to 'gauge' the fact of that other will activity solely on external actions?

Are all nonbelievers demon possessed and Jesus just removed some demons from a few people?

All unbelievers minds are blinded by the 'god of this world,' yes. That is by an entity in their minds that is not them. 2 Cor. 4:4 for example, or Mark 4:15 amongst others.

And God even wills for them not to see. Romans 11:8 for example.

Satan is around influencing our decisions through temptations like satan did with Eve, but like with Eve it is still man’s decision.

And Satan also stops people from seeing the obvious logical fallacies in their constructs too when they can't see the obvious other party in the will, even while simultaneously admitting it happens WITHIN the mind by temptation of the tempter.

The tempter tempts in mind. Hmmm? I wonder where the tempter is? Hmmm? Let me see? Hmmm? Nah, not in mind? Surely not?

uh, yeah, in mind.

Pardon me for having some fun with you.

God made satan and demons and allowed them to sin. After they these spiritual beings sinned, God utilizes them to bring about opportunities for willing individuals to choose his help and grow their Love.

Well, that's a nice little tale and I'm sure there are some shards of truism's therein, but the fact remains that these entities operate in man and are in fact linked to every sin. 1 John 3:8 for example.

Demons and satan are limited by God to what they can do to man, but like the blind man in John 9:1-7, those individuals that are possessed provide wonderful opportunities for Christians to show God’s Love to others.

If you recognize it's not just the person operating in mind loving a devil is quite pointless.

s

 

[Rick Otto]

The issue is very simple.
There are physical biblical and real life examples of the spiritual things all around us.

The spiritual concept of "no free will" is reflected in the physical example of rape.

For God to take a bride without her consent and, in the case that she is drunk, without her knowledge.

Since God is righteous, He will not do such a thing. Otherwise He could have stopped with monkeys, robots that are unaware of Him and thus unable to choose.

The point is that we ARE just monkeys & robots UNTIL He gives us a living spirit. 1Cor2:14 read it & weep... for joy, because your salvation is in His loving hands, not our sinning hands.

 

[Rick Otto]

The nonbeliever is without the Spirit and is not seeking Spiritual things, but the nonbeliever for selfish reasons can seek and accept help from his enemy, the same as the prodigal son (selfishly) can return home looking for a job.

You might figuratively say he was looking for his spiritual inheritance, what he forgot to take with him out into the world with his financial inheritance. The prodigal was a son the whole time, he just got lost & hung up in the 'briars' of the world. The point is, lost sheep get found, they don't turn into goats. How many times can a believer fall away? How many times can an unbeliever come back & get a job? Those are complications that result from a loss of perspective, not a loss of salvation.

When we say the reason for destroying the wicked was: “to show his wrath and make his power known” that does not answer why He needed to do that?

There's different ways of approaching that. One might be to see it in terms of our need for Him to do that... & then can you think why the world might need to know of His power & wrath?

If the reason is: “To help others that are willing, to make the free will decision to allow God to help them, sooner than later” then it is logical and Loving.

That would be one of probably several good reasons.
But here you frame the will as not being free of the need for help, so I'm suddenly less impressed with your criteria for freedom. (But that said, I do have to admit I'm a workin' slave for "the man", lol)

If the reason is: “To fill some personal issue God is having” that is not logical or Loving.

LOL!, sorry, no disrespect, I love being able to talk theology like that. The idea of God being neurotic is great premise for a ton of jokes.
Seriously tho bro, that would be a definition of someone less than God, wouldn't it? I mean, my understanding is that 'all things work for the good of those who love Him".
What are you're thoughts? Have I missed an issue?

 

[simonthezealot]

The nonbeliever is without the Spirit and is not seeking Spiritual things, but the nonbeliever for selfish reasons can seek and accept help from his enemy, the same as the prodigal son (selfishly) can return home looking for a job.

U suggesting the prodigals father was his enemy? I think not.

 

[simonthezealot]

The sovereignty attached to man by the arminian crowd astounds me...
God alone is sovereign, if not how would or could we trust the penners of scripture?

 

[bling]

U suggesting the prodigals father was his enemy? I think not.

“The younger one said to his father, “Father, give me my share of the estate.” From what I have studied about this time and place: the prodigal son was saying to the father: “I wish you were dead so I could have my inheritance”.

 

[bling]

The sovereignty attached to man by the arminian crowd astounds me...
God alone is sovereign, if not how would or could we trust the penners of scripture?

How is the Holy Spirit’s protection and preservation of what all He wanted in scripture damaged by man’s free will? Are you suggesting a human with free will could over power the Holy Spirit?

 

[simonthezealot]

Its that if man has the power to choose or deny Gods breathing life into him then to be consistent wouldnt he also be able to ignore His breathing words of scriipture into himself? Ya think Lazarus could have said no? Lol

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

BUT if you believe man does not have free will then why is God’s love not great enough to save everyone?

Now that I have a moment I'd like to address this vital issue. There are some crucial points to ponder if we really want to understand what is meant by "free will" and "God's gift of faith".

Scripture, I think you would agree, holds the following as true:
a. God is not willing that any should perish.
b. God commands all men to repent.
c. God says that whosoever will may come.
d. God says that he who comes will not be cast out.
e. God says that He is no respecter of persons.

Would you not say then, given the above truths, that the problem lies with man and not with God? I think we are all agreed that the problem lies with us.

Would you not also agree that the way to God has been opened (by God Himself) so that all might come? But man, left to himself, according to Romans 3, will not come..there is none that seeketh after God.

A common belief based upon some very well-known and oft-quoted scriptures is thus put forward: Since none will come, God "gives faith" to some that they may/must come.

If that is so then these questions may be raised:
1. Would doing so make God a respecter of persons. He would be choosing some over others would He not?
2. How could He say that He is "not willing that any should perish" if He has the ability to give the gift of faith to all?
3. If the saving of some brings glory to God would not the saving of all be rather more glorious?

And yet I ask another question...Is it possible that that common belief might just be based on a wrong interpretation? I personally believe it is. I believe that God has done and is doing everything in His power to save every soul from a lost eternity...He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. God's love IS great enough to save everyone...but not everyone will be saved.

Enough for now. I'm just wondering if there's one person out there who'd like to hear more on this.

 

[simonthezealot]

“The younger one said to his father, “Father, give me my share of the estate.” From what I have studied about this time and place: the prodigal son was saying to the father: “I wish you were dead so I could have my inheritance”.

Abandoning for a season does not make that person an enemy.

 

[bling]

[
Bling, I'm not sure I know how to say the same thing in a different way. I'll try. After the fall God said of Adam, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". Which means they did not 'know it' before. But unlike God, who 'knows' good and evil but has that Holy nature that cannot sin, the ramifications for man were greater than simply the knowing...with the disobedience (sin), came also a change in his nature and that same verse goes on to say that "lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" God sent him forth from the garden. See, a change in 'knowledge' only would not have required that, but a change in nature did.

I do not see you reason for pointing out Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before yet God did. You say God has a “Holy nature” which I assume includes free will and does not sin, so do Adam and Eve have this “holy nature” including free will before sinning? Why did God withhold his Holy Nature from Adam and Eve?

The Bible does not say they were driven from the Garden because of their added knowledge or their change in nature (nor does not say their nature even changed). Life outside the Garden included: death, limited resources, hardship, hurting people, pains, more sinning and even living away from God, all helped man to become like the prodigal son and seek the Father’s help. All this did not need to happen if Adam and Eve’s free will was lost.

Before the bite Adam 'knew' what God had said about the tree of life (not to eat of it) and he also 'knew' what it was that Eve was offering to him (otherwise the bite could not be classed as disobedience). But at that very moment his choice was 'free' (not free from outside influences such as the serpent, the woman, etc.) but 'free' in the sense that ther was as yet 'no flaw' in the nature of the creature fresh from the Potter's hand. There was no 'inner tendency' to yield one way or the other. The vessel became marred as soon as he disobeyed. After that, as a marred vessel, his choices were not 'free' as before.

“As a marred vessel, his choices were not 'free' as before” is an unsupported hypothesis and is not logical. Just because a being makes one wrong free will choice, why would it mean he cannot make any more free will choices? Can we learn from our mistakes? There are all kinds of influences on our choices (past results being just a small portion of those influences), but there is our choice given all these other factors and that we can be held accountable for making.

Let me illustrate with a poor example. You have a pure liquid, water, which is 'free', we'll say of any contaminants. Like Adam before sin. Now introduce arsenic. The water's very nature has changed. Now everything it touches (into which it is introduced) becomes tainted with that which tainted the water. All of us descendents from Adam have become tainted with that which tainted him, and so, in that sense, we are not as 'free' as he before the bite. You and I are, by inherited nature, skewed as to sin. And every unregenerate person has this nature, and this nature only, and therefore everything that person does, in that state, is tainted with sin. That is the only way that we can understand that "the plowing of the wicked is sin".

Actually the water molecules have not change and their nature is fully intact, but arsenic atoms have been added.

The reason everything the nonbeliever does is of no value, is because he does not have Godly type Love motivating him, so as Paul tells us (1 Cor 13: 1-4) everything he does is worthless. That Love comes only after he gives up, surrenders and allows God to forgive him.

Jude talks about being "twice dead". Do you have any thought how being that works into our discussion?

Not really.

 

[bling]

Its that if man has the power to choose or deny Gods breathing life into him then to be consistent wouldnt he also be able to ignore His breathing words of scriipture into himself? Ya think Lazarus could have said no? Lol

Just because we cannot make one type of decision does not mean we cannot make other free will decisions.

 

[bling]

Abandoning for a season does not make that person an enemy.

I said:
“The younger one said to his father, “Father, give me my share of the estate.” From what I have studied about this time and place: the prodigal son was saying to the father: “I wish you were dead so I could have my inheritance”.
The young man wanted his Father dead, like people wish of their enemies.

 

[bling]

That had zero to do with the scriptures I cited showing people are not alone in their flesh/minds.

You gave example of people that were not acting like mature adults, but controlled by other forces so they were not responsible for their actions (like a small child is not responsible).

Free will does not mean you are uninfluenced by internal and outside influences it just means there are some parts of some decision you can be held accountable for making. Those part where when you did exercise your free will.

So you can see that there are in fact another or 'other' wills transpiring in such?

There can be lots of decisions that were not made of our free will or only certain parts were made of our free will.

You might also see that it is quite pointless to 'gauge' the fact of that other will activity solely on external actions?

All unbelievers minds are blinded by the 'god of this world,' yes. That is by an entity in their minds that is not them. 2 Cor. 4:4 for example, or Mark 4:15 amongst others.

So why did Christ only drive out the demons from people that were obviously possessed by demons?

Can people come to their senses?

In the parable of the sower the seed goes out to everyone lot of different groups, but only those with a soft heart accept and multiply that word, but the parable does not address what and how hearts are softened and if a hard heart today could not be softened tomorrow somehow.

And God even wills for them not to see. Romans 11:8 for example.

It is God’s will that those that continue to refuse His charity will have their hearts hardened.

And Satan also stops people from seeing the obvious logical fallacies in their constructs too when they can't see the obvious other party in the will, even while simultaneously admitting it happens WITHIN the mind by temptation of the tempter.

Satan did a job on the prodigal son and drove him to the bottom, but the son could still come to his senses in a “dead” state, by Christ use of the word “dead”.

Well, that's a nice little tale and I'm sure there are some shards of truism's therein, but the fact remains that these entities operate in man and are in fact linked to every sin. 1 John 3:8 for example.

There are mentally disturbed people that will never have the opportunity to accept God’s help, that we can serve as Christians. There are also those that allow demons to control themselves and can at some point in their lives come to their senses and accept God’s Love.

If you recognize it's not just the person operating in mind loving a devil is quite pointless.

What are you saying?

 

[simonthezealot]

Just because we cannot make one type of decision does not mean we cannot make other free will decisions.

God is sovereign, either you believe our actions are in His plan our you dont.Cant have it both ways, our decisions are compatible with His will, thats the God of scripture.