truth of the "rapture"

[thereselittleflower]

Spritual things are spritually discerned. Forgive me but I don't put much stock into the words of men when they seek to take away from the Word of God.

Yet you put a great deal of stock in the words of Ellen White so you contradict your own claim.

You don't put much stock into the words of men, but yet you say you know the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book. How would you even know this if it were not for the words of men?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't recall stating that I didn't know the difference between the two. What's really sad is that I've yet to hear how any of your Popes received Revelation from God. It's sad really. I'd think they'd be the first ones to get a vision every now and then.

Why do you think our Popes received revelation from God?

 

[thereselittleflower]

How would you know I'm mistaken if you don't know what the bible says on the matter?

How do you know I don't know what the Bible says on the matter?

 

[Stryder06]

Now you're making wholly unjustified conclusions. Since our discussion is about papal infallibility we (Catholics) speak in terms of the assurance of truth that infallibility gives. There is no revelation implied in an assurance of truth. But you make the erroneous conclusion a pope never received a vision, or other communication from God or from the angels and saints. Such communications, not being inspired revelation from God, are considered to be private revelation and not to be binding upon anybody who does not receive them. Sacred scripture is, of course, public revelation and binding upon the consciences of all who profess faith in Christ.

My statements aren't unjustified conclusions. They're based off of what I've been told by Catholics. Although now that I think about it, I do remember that Pope John Paul had visions of Mary quite frequently. So in that regard I was wrong. Of course I'm more concerned with them getting visions from Christ. Is there such a record. If I've been misinformed, I'd be more than happy to take back what was said.

 

[Stryder06]

How do you know I don't know what the Bible says on the matter?

Twas a statement directed at your churches stance as a whole, not you personally.

If I'm not mistaken, your view is in agreeance with your churhces view correct?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Actually MoreCoffee, I have a clear understanding of the two thanks to my time on this board, and made no such statement here that indicated anything to the contrary. I am not responsible for what you assume I mean when I said that your Popes should receive a vision every now and then. I do find it strage however that they NEVER received inspiration.

You have not demonstrated you have the understanding you claim above.

You do not demonstrate understanding that INSPIRATION is closed. . . done .. there is no more inspried divine revelation from God.

You do not demonstrate undertanding that INSPIRATION refers to the giving of Divine Revelation.

Divine Revelation is finished. It was finished with the Apostles whom Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead into the ALL Truth . not some truth . . . ALL truth.

If Jesus is not a llar, then the Apostles were led into ALL truth and Divine Revelation to man is COMPLETE lacking nothing at the time of the Apostles.

There is therefore no more need for inspiration for divine revelation and such inspiration has ceased.

So no .. our Popes are not inspired to give divine revelation today.

Anyone who claims to be inspired to give divine revelation after the apostles is deceiving you for there is nothing to be added to the divine revelation given to the apostles for they received ALL truth.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Twas a statement directed at your churches stance as a whole, not you personally.

If I'm not mistaken, your view is in agreeance with your churhces view correct?

How do you know my Church does not know what the bible says on the matter?

 

[thereselittleflower]

My statements aren't unjustified conclusions. They're based off of what I've been told by Catholics. Although now that I think about it, I do remember that Pope John Paul had visions of Mary quite frequently. So in that regard I was wrong. Of course I'm more concerned with them getting visions from Christ. Is there such a record. If I've been misinformed, I'd be more than happy to take back what was said.

Any such visions are not inspired divine revelation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Forgive me but I didn't join in on this discussion to discuss EGW, and something tells me there's nothing I can't tell you that you haven't already heard.

haven't heard much . which is why i asked . just not sure the difference . the principle of an extra prophet seems identical .

 

[Stryder06]

Yet you put a great deal of stock in the words of Ellen White so you contradict your own claim.

You don't put much stock into the words of men, but yet you say you know the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book. How would you even know this if it were not for the words of men?

I said I don't put much stock in the words of men when they take away from the Words of God.

Why do you think our Popes received revelation from God?

I don't know if they have. I was saying, based off of what I've been told by other Catholic's, that they've never received inspiration from God. That strikes me as odd.

 

[Stryder06]

haven't heard much . which is why i asked . just not sure the difference . the principle of an extra prophet seems identical .

I don't know much about Joseph Smith so I can't make the comparison. Suffice it to say that Ellen was a young woman who received a number of visions and instructions from God that helped in the development of the SDA church. Some people like her, some people don't, but it doesn't change who she was or what she accomplished. If you'd like to know more feel free to PM me, or drop by the SDA sub-forum. A few guys who know a lot more than I do would be able to give you better answers.

 

[Stryder06]

You do not demonstrate understanding that INSPIRATION is closed. . . done .. there is no more inspried divine revelation from God.

Your church keeps saying that, but it doesn't make it true.

You do not demonstrate undertanding that INSPIRATION refers to the giving of Divine Revelation.

MoreCoffe explained that quite well, and I do very much understand what's being said.

Divine Revelation is finished. It was finished with the Apostles whom Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead into the ALL Truth . not some truth . . . ALL truth.

Again, just cause you say it's finished doesn't mean it's finished. And I believe the "lead into ALL truth" statement was inclusive of all believers. Not just the Apostles. If it's not the Holy Spirit leading you, than who is?

If Jesus is not a llar, then the Apostles were led into ALL truth and Divine Revelation to man is COMPLETE lacking nothing at the time of the Apostles.

How do you even come to that conclusion? Didn't Paul say that among all of God's gifts, His people ought to desire prophecy? Doesn't Revelation say that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy?

There is therefore no more need for inspiration for divine revelation and such inspiration has ceased.

So no .. our Popes are not inspired to give divine revelation today.

Tis a shame really that you'd even be ok thinking that.

Anyone who claims to be inspired to give divine revelation after the apostles is deceiving you for there is nothing to be added to the divine revelation given to the apostles for they received ALL truth.

At least I know understand why you feel as you do. Thank you for explaining that.

How do you know my Church does not know what the bible says on the matter?

They have no offical stance on Revelation correct? You don't find that to be odd in the least bit?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I said I don't put much stock in the words of men when they take away from the Words of God.

Where have the words of men taken away from the words of God?

It is pretty apparent you are adding to the words of God.

I don't know if they have. I was saying, based off of what I've been told by other Catholic's, that they've never received inspiration from God. That strikes me as odd.

That's because you don't undertand yet that inspiriation from God no longer happens and hasn't since the Apostles left this earth.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Your church keeps saying that, but it doesn't make it true.

Did Jesus lie when He said the ALL truth would be given to the apostles?

 

[Stryder06]

Where have the words of men taken away from the words of God?

In trying to make the 1000 years an "unknown long time"

It is pretty apparent you are adding to the words of God.

Where have I done this?

That's because you don't undertand yet that inspiriation from God no longer happens and hasn't since the Apostles left this earth.

You're right, I don't understand that, nor will I given that the bible says no such thing. I'd have to take the word of your church on that matter, and as I said earlier "Because we say so" just doesn't work well for me.

 

[Stryder06]

Did Jesus lie when He said the ALL truth would be given to the apostles?

Jesus didn't say that. He said:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Again I'll ask you, if you're not being lead by the Holy Spirit into truth, who is leading you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Any such visions are not inspired divine revelation.

Seventh Day Adventists believe that Ellen White wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so they implicitly believe her writings to be as true and as binding on them as scripture is.

Here are their beliefs:
8. Great Controversy:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

 

[Stryder06]

Seventh Day Adventists believe that Ellen White wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so they implicitly believe her writings to be as true and as binding on them as scripture is.

You treat your Catechism the same way

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seventh Day Adventists believe that Ellen White wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so they implicitly believe her writings to be as true and as binding on them as scripture is.

You treat your Catechism the same way

No, we do not even think that the Catechism is infallible, never mind inspired by God. You folk, from the Seventh Adventists are the ones saddled with a claim to inspiration for your prophet's writings.

 

[thereselittleflower]

In trying to make the 1000 years an "unknown long time"

That's not taking away from scriptures in any way. I'm not going to continue to argue this point with you. I have presented the evidence of how apocalyptic books use numbers symbolically, and what the number 1000 in paricular signifies. If wishful thinking is more important than facts and ignoring facts rules the day then so be it.

But wishful, magical thinking does not make facts disappear or change. The facts are facts.

The number 1000 in Revelation is symbolic and not literal. No amount of magical thinking will change that.

Where have I done this?

Well for starters, by claiming that the 1000 years is literal time frame.

You're right, I don't understand that, nor will I given that the bible says no such thing. I'd have to take the word of your church on that matter, and as I said earlier "Because we say so" just doesn't work well for me.

The bible does say so.

Jesus promised only the apostles they would be led into ALL truth.

The word ALL means ALL. . so the divine revelation was completely given to them. If it was completely given to them, then there is nothing remaining to be added.

So, there is no more need for divine inspiration today . . for that would mean adding to the ALL truth already given the aposltes.

If there is still something to be added, then they didn't receive ALL truth and then Jesus lied.

Did Jesus lie?