DO We Have Free Will?

[bling]

Just wondered what you would say about John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".

And this one from Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God".

Jesus is talking to the 12 in John 15: 16 which He did chose, but does that mean they could not have left at any time since in John 6 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

In Romans 3:11 Paul is quoting a very poetic section of Psalms and you have to give some poetic licence and not take it all literal.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

First off: God goes way beyond human understanding of man and can easily figure out all the options man can do under any situation and the most likely alternatives.
I would agree. God already knew 'before the foundations of the earth' what the result would be...but that did not preclude His creating man and allowing him to obey/disobey...true freedom for man could not be exercised otherwise.


God has only one plan A which is the best plan.
I could agree with you in that...Plan A being that God is going to bless man in spite of himself, for instance. But that doesn't mean that the plan will carry out smoothly...which it necessarily would if 'God only' had a say...but He gave man a say, and that say led him into a sidetrack (actually several, in turn). Take for example, Gen 6. Is it facetiousness that which is declared there? "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart". Then he goes on to say, "I will destroy man whom I have created", and then, a little further, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord". Would you not call that glitches caused by man, God ruminating over them,but then God over-ruling?
And what about that which God said unto Moses after 'stiffnecked' Israel failed Him yet again In Deut.9, "Let me alone that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven", and then proceeds to tell faithful Moses, "and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they"? We know Moses intercedes for God's people and the Lord does not blot them out but do these actions speak of an all-knowing God orchestrating rebellion against Himself or does it speak of a wayward people unwilling to be led of an all-loving God to a place of rest, peace, and safety and openly rebelling against Him? Another glitch I should think, in which God once more overrules.

The idea of “Adam was to represent God” is not supported by scripture and to whom would Adam be making this pitifully representation to?
That would be the thought in "creating man in our image" and giving him "dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth", I should think.
Maybe represent this responsibility to a potentially rebellious higher creation (who too had the ability to 'disobey' as Lucifer already did, that others would do by Gen. 6, and still others would do so openly as described in Rev.12) who are beholding what man is doing on the earth?...for which reason Paul tells women in 1 Cor.11 that they ought to wear a covering "because of the angels".

Sufficient for here. Will pen a little more in another post.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

We do need to discuss the objectives since everything can be explained by the objectives, so what is God’s objective in all this?

Bling, I think everything you wrote following the above I can agree with so I will respond only to the above...what is the objective?

Put simply it is, and has always been, that God is LOVE and truly wants nothing but the blessing of man. Because of sin we distrust God (in answer it seems to the seed planted by Satan, "Yea, hath God said?") and in every situation in which God places man he rebels and goes his own way. Yet God will not give him up and where sin abounds, grace does much more so and God goes further each time than He went before. When Paul (we believe) wrote to the Hebrews in his day he told them God at sundry times and divers manners spake in times past by the prophets but had in these last days spoken by His Son. Of course, they crucified Him. But did that end it? No, for God then told them to preach the gospel...and begin at the most responsible place, Jerusalem...that now whosoever receives Him by faith will be brought into blessing. That's for us now. But is that the end? No, for there is still one more thing that God can and will do. His Son will yet reign Himself over this world, all will be again Edenic, justice and equity (long proclaimed as the thing man desires) will be the norm...but in the end man will rebel even in that Utopia and march up to Jerusalem to surround the camp of the saints led by that same one who planted the seed of doubt, and will bring down the final destruction upon himself and this world. Then will follow a New Earth and a New heaven...for God will have both an earthly people and a heavenly people and 'sin will be no more'.
That's the objective and it will be achieved...but the road has been and will be far from straight...and that because God has given us a say...and our say always vers us off the King's Highway. To God be the Glory!! He brings us back to the road again (although not the same individuals who left it). He will not quit. His love will win out all will sing the glad Alleluia in that day!!

 

[bling]

I could agree with you in that...Plan A being that God is going to bless man in spite of himself, for instance. But that doesn't mean that the plan will carry out smoothly...which it necessarily would if 'God only' had a say...but He gave man a say, and that say led him into a sidetrack (actually several, in turn). Take for example, Gen 6. Is it facetiousness that which is declared there? "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart". Then he goes on to say, "I will destroy man whom I have created", and then, a little further, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord". Would you not call that glitches caused by man, God ruminating over them,but then God over-ruling?

The scripture writers often gave human characteristics to God, because it is written to communicate to humans. (Different translations may not have repent)

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

So is the Bible contradicting itself or does repenting when it relates to God mean something else then when it relates to man? Man can never go back and redo what he has done, but repenting conveys that idea of what man would do if he could, but man changes boldly what he has been doing, so that is the idea I see God conveying with His repenting.

God is doing the best thing that can be done given the situation, but as man changes God changes in response. God does not take pleasure or joy in the destruction of wicked men, but that is His will and there destruction can help other willing humans in the future. God is not making man follow some tragic plan, but has a plan that takes man’s free will into consideration.

And what about that which God said unto Moses after 'stiffnecked' Israel failed Him yet again In Deut.9, "Let me alone that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven", and then proceeds to tell faithful Moses, "and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they"? We know Moses intercedes for God's people and the Lord does not blot them out but do these actions speak of an all-knowing God orchestrating rebellion against Himself or does it speak of a wayward people unwilling to be led of an all-loving God to a place of rest, peace, and safety and openly rebelling against Him? Another glitch I should think, in which God once more overrules.

These “people” have not really changed and their actions do not surprise me. First off you have to keep in mind how thinks work with God, Jeremiah writes it down for us but this is the way God has operated from the beginning and the people seem to be aware of it even though Jeremiah will not give a written record until later: Jer. 18: 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; 8 if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

There is a very logical reason why God has to give a warning as a statement of future negative actions, for God knows the future, but cannot say as a warning: “You will all repent in 40days (which is the truth, but not a warning for them) and God cannot say: “If you do not straighten up in 40 days I will destroy you” because the “if” would say God does not know what they will do (a lie), since God does know.

That would be the thought in "creating man in our image" and giving him "dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth", I should think.

The “image of God”, seems to be the ability to obtain and grow Godly type Love (which includes free will). It is being contrasted to animals and that ability to Love is the big contrast between humans and animals.

Maybe represent this responsibility to a potentially rebellious higher creation (who too had the ability to 'disobey' as Lucifer already did, that others would do by Gen. 6, and still others would do so openly as described in Rev.12) who are beholding what man is doing on the earth?...for which reason Paul tells women in 1 Cor.11 that they ought to wear a covering "because of the angels".

Does man have more than just a “purpose” for existing (a tree has a purpose for being here)? Does man have an objective, something to fulfill or not fulfill? If man has an objective then would God as our loving father not do what He could to help us fulfill that objective if we will allow God to help?

You talk about God allowing man to “obey or disobey”, but does man not have to Love (with a Godly type Love) before he can obey?

So how does man obtain this “Love” that far exceeds man’s instinct or ability to develop?

 

[bling]

Bling, I think everything you wrote following the above I can agree with so I will respond only to the above...what is the objective?

Put simply it is, and has always been, that God is LOVE and truly wants nothing but the blessing of man. Because of sin we distrust God (in answer it seems to the seed planted by Satan, "Yea, hath God said?") and in every situation in which God places man he rebels and goes his own way. Yet God will not give him up and where sin abounds, grace does much more so and God goes further each time than He went before. When Paul (we believe) wrote to the Hebrews in his day he told them God at sundry times and divers manners spake in times past by the prophets but had in these last days spoken by His Son. Of course, they crucified Him. But did that end it? No, for God then told them to preach the gospel...and begin at the most responsible place, Jerusalem...that now whosoever receives Him by faith will be brought into blessing. That's for us now. But is that the end? No, for there is still one more thing that God can and will do. His Son will yet reign Himself over this world, all will be again Edenic, justice and equity (long proclaimed as the thing man desires) will be the norm...but in the end man will rebel even in that Utopia and march up to Jerusalem to surround the camp of the saints led by that same one who planted the seed of doubt, and will bring down the final destruction upon himself and this world. Then will follow a New Earth and a New heaven...for God will have both an earthly people and a heavenly people and 'sin will be no more'.
That's the objective and it will be achieved...but the road has been and will be far from straight...and that because God has given us a say...and our say always vers us off the King's Highway. To God be the Glory!! He brings us back to the road again (although not the same individuals who left it). He will not quit. His love will win out all will sing the glad Alleluia in that day!!

A seemingly little difference but very significant, you say: “God is LOVE and truly wants nothing but the blessing of man” and I would say: “and truly wants to bless man”. I do not see God needing anything from man, but wanting only to give to man. The problem is with man not wanting to humbly accept the pure charity that he desperately needs. If man will just allow God to pour out his mercy upon him God will do it freely, but that requires of man the humility enough to accept charity (this is all the prodigal son did, which was nothing really).

I do not know if God is going any “further” then what He went with King David? (Is God changing or is man getting worse?)

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']We are already in the last days. [/FONT]

 

[cavell]

Yers We Do

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']God Must Not Exist[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']
By: Mark R. Spencer

With all the sorrow in the world,
And horrors that persist.
The fact that God ignores it all,
Says God must not exist.

I see planes flown into buildings,
And bombs on crowded trains,
I see children raped and murdered,
Not finding their remains.

There are crooked politicians
Vying to take control,
There are priests who serve the body
And do not feed the soul.

There are people who are starving,
Who suffer on our streets.
The environment is dying,
A cycle that repeats.

So I climbed the highest building,
Screamed at God above,
I asked, why won’t you do something
If you’re a God of love?

Then the skies began to darken,
Lightning bolts crashing down,
As I looked I saw an Angel
With a sword and a crown.

He bade that I cease my groaning,
My complaints had been heard.
God had charged him with the task of
Delivering His word.

The Angel continued speaking,
His voice was so serene,
As he shared with me the reason
Why God won’t intervene.

He said, the evils in this world,
Result from our free will.
It is we who make the choices,
To steal, deceive or kill.

For if God were to intervene,
We wouldn’t have a choice.
No more freedom to make mistakes,
No questions, and no voice.

The only choices we would make,
Would come from God above.
You’d have no say in what you do,
Or even who you love.

Like fish in an aquarium
Unable to be free.
For they’ve never had the option,
To gaze upon the sea.

Is this what you are longing for?
Shall He grant it for you?
Would you like God to choose for you,
The things you say and do?

I pondered what the Angel said,
Until I understood.
There’s a price to pay for freedom,
Knowing evil and good.

It’s our responsibility,
Our range of choice is broad.
But if you choose the darker path,
You must stop blaming God!

He would not make that choice for you,
He grieves each time you lose.
But He allows your destiny,
To be the one you choose.

With that, the thunder faded and
The skies began to clear.
The Angel’s final words to me,
Rang loudly in my ear.

“You can heed these words I’ve spoken,
Choose to ignore my voice.
Proof of God is found within
The fact you have that choice.” [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']


[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

So is the Bible contradicting itself or does repenting when it relates to God mean something else then when it relates to man?
To repent, in its simplicity, is to have a change of heart about a given thing. When God saw the wickedness He 'had a change of heart' about having created man. Again we're on Holy Ground here. Could even God have a full sense, if you would, of what wickedness of this kind would be like if it had never existed in His universe before? Just thinking. Maybe the abhorance of what this unbridled sin had wrought brought forth such a spontaneous cry from One who was apart from it all.

The “image of God”, seems to be the ability to obtain and grow Godly type Love (which includes free will). It is being contrasted to animals and that ability to Love is the big contrast between humans and animals.
My turn to ask where you get such a thought? Nothing of that sort is brought out in the Genesis saga...man in God's image...to have dominion over all in the earth...that speaks to man being God's representative, all else under him, and he holding to his godly responsibility.


Does man have more than just a “purpose” for existing (a tree has a purpose for being here)? Does man have an objective, something to fulfill or not fulfill? If man has an objective then would God as our loving father not do what He could to help us fulfill that objective if we will allow God to help?
The purpose is already stated above. Man in dominion/God in association; both having fellowship and communion in it. But man fell and failed in his responsibility. Man driven out. Now the objective is for God to bring man back into a right association with Himself again. The only way is for man to trust God...but, except for individuals, man has failed to trust Him no matter what He does..in the current age He asks us to receive by faith His Son from heaven. And what, by and large, is our answer?


You talk about God allowing man to “obey or disobey”, but does man not have to Love (with a Godly type Love) before he can obey?

So how does man obtain this “Love” that far exceeds man’s instinct or ability to develop?
John says, "we love because He first loved us". Man cannot even speak about loving his neighbour before he first learns to love God. And he truly cannot love God until he comes into a realization of how much God loves him. This is the secret...it's not how much I love God, but how much He loves me. Being occupied with His love is the only motivating factor in my Christian life...it's the only way I can love my brother...and the only way I can turn the other cheek as well. I don't say I have learned it well.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

A seemingly little difference but very significant, you say: “God is LOVE and truly wants nothing but the blessing of man” and I would say: “and truly wants to bless man”. I do not see God needing anything from man, but wanting only to give to man. The problem is with man not wanting to humbly accept the pure charity that he desperately needs. If man will just allow God to pour out his mercy upon him God will do it freely, but that requires of man the humility enough to accept charity (this is all the prodigal son did, which was nothing really).

"To bless man" is what I mean by "the blessing of man". There is only one thing God needs from man and that is for man, as individuals, to 'own up' to his failure. 'Repent' is a key word. Don't make the mistake of preaching a social gospel whereby we are told that all you need is to accept Christ into your life and you will be wealthy and healthy and happy beyond measure. Bieng 'open to receive charity' is a far cry from acknowledging I am a lost sinner and I need my sins washed away in order to come into the presence of a Holy God. My Sins put me out of His presence; only the confession of them and accepting His forgiveness of them by way of the atoning blood can bring me back in. That's the message. But that requires me to bow the need and confess with my mouth...and this I am not so willing to do. But do I must or there is no charity to receive.

I do not know if God is going any “further” then what He went with King David? (Is God changing or is man getting worse?)
God changes not but, yes, I would say man is getting worse. How, you say? Because in every period or age God has done more than He did before. Compare for example the law to grace. Every age has the benefit of all that went before...you and I are told for example that the law was our school teacher leading us to Christ. Christ, the very Son from heaven, was given and we sent HIm back. David never celebrated Christmas...he couldn't. But we can for we know more. Hebrews is filled with that which is "better"...but does all that make us 'better'. No way. More responsible, yes, but not one iota better. But you know there's 1000 years yet to come in which Christ Himself shall reign...the whole earth regenerated...Satan in the abyss...justice, equity reigns...but will all that make a difference in the end? No. Rebellion follows the release of Satan. Unless the 'nature' is changed (natural to spiritual/Adam to Christ/first man to Second Man/ first Adam to Last Adam) the flesh will produce nothing for Christ...the flesh profited nothing...and under the best of conditions the flesh proves to be the worst. that's why I think man is getting worse...not in his fallen nature, but in his rebellion in it to God.

 

[bling]

[To repent, in its simplicity, is to have a change of heart about a given thing. When God saw the wickedness He 'had a change of heart' about having created man. Again we're on Holy Ground here. Could even God have a full sense, if you would, of what wickedness of this kind would be like if it had never existed in His universe before? Just thinking. Maybe the abhorance of what this unbridled sin had wrought brought forth such a spontaneous cry from One who was apart from it all.

What happened with man before the flood does not surprise me at all (and I know very little about man), so would it really “surprise” God?

God does not speak without thinking it through.

When humans are truly grieved about the results their actions have rout they repent, so if God wants to express to humans that same grief he might say he repented, but that does not mean God would do it differently if God could have another chance. What I see in scripture being expressed is, God does everything as good as it can be done (so He cannot change), but that does not mean it does not grief God since man‘s free will is involved.

My turn to ask where you get such a thought? Nothing of that sort is brought out in the Genesis saga...man in God's image...to have dominion over all in the earth...that speaks to man being God's representative, all else under him, and he holding to his godly responsibility.

Good question.

Gen 1: 25 God made all kinds of wild animals. He made all kinds of livestock. He made all kinds of creatures that move along the ground. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our likeness. Let them rule over the fish in the waters and the birds of the air. Let them rule over the livestock and over the whole earth. Let them rule over all of the creatures that move along the ground.”

The “in our likeness” comes in the middle of talking about all the other animals and is a contrast to the other animals.

Animals can have some wonderful types of instinctive love, but they cannot have an illogical type of Love that would allow them to Love their enemies, while man can have this Love.

It really all goes back to what I consider the earthly objective of humans given as a command yet really our mission statement “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy” (something animals just cannot do.). The Godly ability to Love like that is really the only ability man needs to fulfill his objective, so that is why I feel that is the likeness we have since that is the only likeness we need. That ability to have this Godly type Love does not mean we are born with this Love since it is not instinctive, but we can obtain it through humbly accepting it as a gift of pure charity from God.

The purpose is already stated above. Man in dominion/God in association; both having fellowship and communion in it. But man fell and failed in his responsibility. Man driven out. Now the objective is for God to bring man back into a right association with Himself again. The only way is for man to trust God...but, except for individuals, man has failed to trust Him no matter what He does..in the current age He asks us to receive by faith His Son from heaven. And what, by and large, is our answer?

You said you agreed with that last part of what I stated back in post 280 which stated:


God is said to be “Love” itself, but let’s just consider what the greatest possible “Love” would be like and what would be its objective. True “Love” can be measured by the amount one is willing to sacrifice for another or saying it another way “the amount of unselfishness one has for another”.


God being the ultimate “Love” would be totally unselfish toward those He Loved and thus willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything for those He Loves. Do you see God willing to make the greatest of sacrifices for humans?


So what would be the ultimate unselfish reason for creating man? Would it be to get something from man or to give something to man?


This totally unselfish being would want to give the greatest possible gift He could give to others, so what would that be?


Would the greatest possible gift not be this same Love He has since it is the most powerful force in all universes compelling God to do all He does?


Can this unique “Love” be placed in a being, by being an instinctive type of love, or could it be programmed into a being a robotic type of love?


Would it be Loving on God’s part to force this “Love” on a being against the being’s will (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and would the love received in such a way be Godly type Love?


God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction, but is a decision on His part, it is not because the person is lovable, but is because God is Love and choses to “Love” the person for the sake of the person. So for us to Love like God Loves it has to be the result of a free will decision to accept that Love with true likely alternatives (so it is not being forced on us). While on earth those likely alternatives are the perceived pleasures of sin, but once we obtain this Love we no longer need the sin alternatives.



So God will quench His own desires to do all He can to help willing humans fulfill their objective and that “all” includes: allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even sin.

As I stated above: I consider the earthly objective of humans given as a command yet really our mission statement “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy” (something animals just cannot do.). The Godly ability to Love like that is really the only ability man needs to fulfill his objective, so that is why I feel that is the likeness we have since that is the only likeness we need. That ability to have this Godly type Love does not mean we are born with this Love since it is not instinctive, but we can obtain it through humbly accepting it as a gift of pure charity from God.

John says, "we love because He first loved us". Man cannot even speak about loving his neighbour before he first learns to love God. And he truly cannot love God until he comes into a realization of how much God loves him. This is the secret...it's not how much I love God, but how much He loves me. Being occupied with His love is the only motivating factor in my Christian life...it's the only way I can love my brother...and the only way I can turn the other cheek as well. I don't say I have learned it well.

You keep talking about: “…learns to love” when Godly type Love is a free undeserving unconditional gift from God way beyond anything humans can “learn” to do.

Yes!!! We have to accept God’s Love for us before we Love and that is the huge problem (it may not sound like it should be a problem). Humans will almost do anything before humbling themselves to accept pure charity and yet that is what God’s Love is. The easiest (and really only way) to accept God’s Love is in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness (which means we have to sin first). Once we come to realize how unbelievably huge the debt sin creates and we accept God’s forgiveness of that debt; we then automatically obtain this unbelievable huge Love (that is a Godly type Love). Now once we have a Godly type Love it can grow with use, but obtaining it is the hard part.

 

[bling]

"To bless man" is what I mean by "the blessing of man". There is only one thing God needs from man and that is for man, as individuals, to 'own up' to his failure. 'Repent' is a key word. Don't make the mistake of preaching a social gospel whereby we are told that all you need is to accept Christ into your life and you will be wealthy and healthy and happy beyond measure. Bieng 'open to receive charity' is a far cry from acknowledging I am a lost sinner and I need my sins washed away in order to come into the presence of a Holy God. My Sins put me out of His presence; only the confession of them and accepting His forgiveness of them by way of the atoning blood can bring me back in. That's the message. But that requires me to bow the need and confess with my mouth...and this I am not so willing to do. But do I must or there is no charity to receive.

But do you also see in what you said: “…acknowledging I am a lost sinner and I need my sins washed away in order to come into the presence of a Holy God.” That you have to sin first?

God changes not but, yes, I would say man is getting worse. How, you say? Because in every period or age God has done more than He did before. Compare for example the law to grace. Every age has the benefit of all that went before...you and I are told for example that the law was our school teacher leading us to Christ. Christ, the very Son from heaven, was given and we sent HIm back. David never celebrated Christmas...he couldn't. But we can for we know more. Hebrews is filled with that which is "better"...but does all that make us 'better'. No way. More responsible, yes, but not one iota better. But you know there's 1000 years yet to come in which Christ Himself shall reign...the whole earth regenerated...Satan in the abyss...justice, equity reigns...but will all that make a difference in the end? No. Rebellion follows the release of Satan. Unless the 'nature' is changed (natural to spiritual/Adam to Christ/first man to Second Man/ first Adam to Last Adam) the flesh will produce nothing for Christ...the flesh profited nothing...and under the best of conditions the flesh proves to be the worst. that's why I think man is getting worse...not in his fallen nature, but in his rebellion in it to God.

I am not a premillennialist so much of what you say does not apply to my thinking.

I am not so pessimistic, because Christ is victorious in the end and good can come out of persecution.

Where you are and what you have experienced maybe bringing you down and I agree this world has lots of problems, but are problems just opportunities for us?

I am pleased with what I do see and know about the Christians in Africa and Communist China.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=bling;...Would the greatest possible gift not be this same Love He has since it is the most powerful force in all universes compelling God to do all He does?

Can this unique “Love” be placed in a being, by being an instinctive type of love, or could it be programmed into a being a robotic type of love?

As God, can He not "program" or "create" a being capable of love? Of course He can. He created us & we can love.

Would it be Loving on God’s part to force this “Love” on a being against the being’s will (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and would the love received in such a way be Godly type Love?

Love is a healing, nurturing force and it is always in opposition to forces of destruction. Would it be like God to let His toddler Son run out into traffic simply out of fear of "forcing love" on Him? It is absurd to consider. So it is absurd to consider the force of God's love to be like a shotgun. Rather the shotgun is judgement which we bring upon ourselves, not love.

God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction, but is a decision on His part, it is not because the person is lovable, but is because God is Love and choses to “Love” the person for the sake of the person.

Right. In fact the person is UNlovable,... damned in fact, & an enemy of God, completely spiritualy depraved because he is in fact, spiritualy dead.

So for us to Love like God Loves it has to be the result of a free will decision to accept that Love with true likely alternatives (so it is not being forced on us).

The will is spiritualy dead & has no knowlege or desire of spiritual things until made spiritualy alive. (1Cor2:14)

While on earth those likely alternatives are the perceived pleasures of sin, but once we obtain this Love we no longer need the sin alternatives.

But the 'body of corruption', - our flesh still has its appetites. So it becomes a struggle to not identify with those appetites.

So God will quench His own desires to do all He can to help willing humans fulfill their objective and that “all” includes: allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even sin.

Imagine the regret & Self-loathing that would ensue, knowing You could've saved them, knowing their will was not spiritualy alive, free of imperfection, mature, & strong.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I posted this post on another thread, but though it would do you some good also.
Let me share something with you. Before Jesus came and died for our sin, and gave us his Holy Spirit to keep us from sinning, people could not defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

Read the following verse and see that the reason we are held to such total obedience to our Lord and God is because we do have the Holy Spirit. The Word tells us that when a spiritual Christian deliberately sin they are insulting the Holy Spirit, and in my understanding that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for that.

I also will quote a verse that says Satan controls a sinner.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”
Jesus personally asked me to give him my life. Jesus let it up to me to say yes or no. It was my will to say yes. Jesus did not just tell me what he wanted me to do.

Then what you're saying is that as soon as a believer sins, they are doomed to hell.

That is not in keeping with the rest of God's words where believers are told that if they do sin, there is forgiveness.


Now, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is spoken of in conjunction with something .. the Jewish leaders accused Jesus of being empowered by satan to do the miracles He did. Jesus warned them then they were in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is when we wrongly and maliciously impute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan that we embark on this path, and at the end is this sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

Then what you're saying is that as soon as a believer sins, they are doomed to hell.

That is not in keeping with the rest of God's words where believers are told that if they do sin, there is forgiveness.


Now, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is spoken of in conjunction with something .. the Jewish leaders accused Jesus of being empowered by satan to do the miracles He did. Jesus warned them then they were in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is when we wrongly and maliciously impute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan that we embark on this path, and at the end is this sin.

Good points, Theresa.

 

[seeking Christ]

Then what you're saying is that as soon as a believer sins, they are doomed to hell.

That is not in keeping with the rest of God's words where believers are told that if they do sin, there is forgiveness.

Doesn't this sound like the type of thinking that caused Constantine not to be Baptized until as late in life as possible? It sure is easy to comprehend the Gospel in black and white terms, such that there is no more forgiveness of sin once we have accepted Jesus initially. Yet, Scripture challenges us to enlarge our hearts, make more room for His unspeakable gift of Grace, and to draw near, even though our God is a consuming fire ...

 

[thereselittleflower]

Doesn't this sound like the type of thinking that caused Constantine not to be Baptized until as late in life as possible?

No.

 

[SolomonVII]

Is it God's will for me to sin?
Do I sin.

I'm looking for Scripture., but more than that, I'm looking for the Scripture
to be "rightly divided" as well.


I do sometimes sin, much as I hate to, much as it makes me sad.
It makes me sad because I don't believe my Father is blessed or glorified when I sin...

Without some extent of free will, the idea of morality is essentially a meaningless illusion. Much of modern secular science works from that premise of hard determinism, where everything that we say and do is merely a function of our brains, and the environmental forces that work upon it at a neuronal and evolutionary level.

There would be no theme nor verse in the Bible that would validate that point of view, for the concept of being able to choose good and reject evil permeates almost every theme and verse.

There is however the idea that God destroyed the world corrupted by the perpetually evil desires of mankind, and conversely promises not to destroy it for the exact same reason.

5 When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil,
6
he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved.
7
So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."​

. and then,

When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, he said to himself: "Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the desires of man's heart are evil from the start; nor will I ever again strike down all living beings, as I have done.​

He learned to accept that this is part of our nature, and he chooses to live with us in spite of that.

There is such a thing as human nature then, and at least from our youth, we are not born good. We have too creators in fact, the earth and God, and like all of the animal kingdom, our human nature inclines toward fulfilling our desires.
We are not simply slaves to our evil inclinations and animal desires either, for the voice of God still commands us, in a way that not even the most magnificent of beasts is compelled to obey.

This is to say that free will is not absolute, for our very bodies conspire against us, and the source of many of our impulses come from the body outside of conscious will even.
Nevertheless, even as evil beckons us through our desires, and lurks always just outside our door, like a snake in the grass even, we have the ability to prevail against those baser desires.

Our minds are a battlefield. God accepts the fact that our inclinations are from evil from the break of day to the setting of the sun. That is something we need to accept about ourselves too, not in order to succumb, but to apply our will to prevailing against those inclinations.
We do have the tools to influence these evil inclinations. Sages have described the evil inclination, the beast within, as the meat, and the bible as the spice for that meat, the sweet odor of the above offering to God.

Rules, rituals, prayers and meditation, etc, are the means to train the will and apply the spice that give the meat of our desires direction, and character.

Perfection however takes a lifetime. It is a ceaseless kind of prayer that allows for mind to prevail over matter.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Free" is a VERY relative term.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And so, if we go with the undestanding of those who deny free will to choose salvation, God is powerless to ensure we have free will with which to choose him.

God is powerless to do so . .


God. . . is powerless . . . .to ensure our free will . . . . .


Does that even remotely make any sense - that God is so POWERLESS?

 

[Rick Otto]

And so, if we go with the undestanding of those who deny free will to choose salvation, God is powerless to ensure we have free will with which to choose him.God is powerless to do so . .God. . . is powerless . . . .to ensure our free will . . . . .Does that even remotely make any sense - that God is so POWERLESS?

That sensless conclusion is your own, sister.
The will is as dead as the spirit that owns it until God has mecy & IN HIS INFINITE POWER regenerates that person, giving them eternal (spiritual) life.
As you have been told before, 1Cor2:14 explains that the natural man has no spiritual knowlege or desire, so the idea that our will is capable of making a spiritual decision, or even wanting to, is absurd,
Pelagius was declared heretic for asserting the will is free in this regard.

 

[thereselittleflower]

That sensless conclusion is your own, sister.
The will is as dead as the spirit that owns it until God has mecy & IN HIS INFINITE POWER regenerates that person, giving them eternal (spiritual) life.
As you have been told before, 1Cor2:14 explains that the natural man has no spiritual knowlege or desire, so the idea that our will is capable of making a spiritual decision, or even wanting to, is absurd,
Pelagius was declared heretic for asserting the will is free in this regard.

It is neither senseless and neither am I alone in my conclusion.

The teaching that man lacks free will to choose God denies God's power to overcome any hinderances to man's free exercise of his will and permit him to exercise his will freely.

The absurdness lies only at the feet of those who would say that to have free will must come from man alone, and that God cannot overcome man's ignorance of spiritual things, that God's grace is insufficient to ensure man can choose God freely.

An analogy I have used in the past is a man in a darkened room which represents the prison of sin and life separted from God.

The man is in a room that is so dark he cannot see even the walls.

God pours out his grace - a candle appears, giving some illumination. It is up to the man whether or not he accepts this illumination and uses it. When he does, more grace is given - the light grows brighter - the man is free to use this light to see his way more clearly. If he does, more grace is given, and the illumination grows, till he sees there is light switch on a wall. He now is given what he needs to be able to turn on the lightswitch . .but it is his choice whether he does so or not. . God has overcome hinderances to his ability to see and know the choice before him, to allow him to excercise his will to turn on the light. If he turns on the light, the room is brightly illumined, the darkness removed, he clearly sees the door and way of deliverance from this prison. He is empowered to act freely, but he still must exercise his will and cooperate with God to leave the room.

Those who deny free will deny the power of God's grace to overcome any hinderances to man's free will and deny the power of God to enable man to choose Him freely.