truth of the "rapture"

[thereselittleflower]

Does rapture mean "caught up in the air (clouds)"?

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~I Thessalonians 4:17

The Greek word for "caught up" is translated into the Latin "rapturo" which is where the english word rapture comes from..

The word is in scripture in the Greek - but Darby's teaching of the 'rapture' is not.

 

[CityOfGod]

See that's my point. . there is no 3.5 years of tribulation, no 7 years of tribulation, no millenial reigh of Christ on earth for 1000 years.

This was all made up by Darby and dispensationalists that came after him. When Christ comes back and snatches us up in the air, that is the end. right there .. there is nothing more on earth that happens.

You are correct.

 

[AV1611VET]

See that's my point. . there is no 3.5 years of tribulation, no 7 years of tribulation, no millenial reigh of Christ on earth for 1000 years.

This was all made up by Darby and dispensationalists that came after him. When Christ comes back and snatches us up in the air, that is the end. right there .. there is nothing more on earth that happens.

When you peel back the layers of thet dispensational teachings, you are left with nothing.

The book of Revelation is full of prophecies; when are those prophecies going to be fulfilled then?

For example, the sealing of the 144,000 Jews, the taking of the Mark, the battle of Armageddon, etc.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The book of Revelation is full of prophecies; when are those prophecies going to be fulfilled then?

For example, the sealing of the 144,000 Jews, the taking of the Mark, the battle or Armageddon, etc.

The book of Revelation is full of symbolic language - numbers are especially symbolic. They are not literal. The book is not written to be read literally.

Are you aware that at the time John wrote this, it was entitled "The Apocalypse of John" and that apocalyptic works are a genre popular at the time, and there were many others written as well?

This is not a book about specific prophecies of the end times. This is a book written in a genre that engages in the high use of symbolism to tell of the ultimate victory of good over evil, and in christiain apocalyptic writing, of God and the Church over satan and evil.

This is not a prophetic book in the traditional sense of the word. It is apocalyptic and highly symbolic.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is not a prophetic book in the traditional sense of the word. It is apocalyptic and highly symbolic.

Then we have a serious problem.

There are 333 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ (according to John Hagee).

Jesus fulfilled 109 of them in His first advent; that leaves 224 left unfulfilled.

When is He going to fulfill them?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Then we have a serious problem.

There are 333 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ (according to John Hagee).

Jesus fulfilled 109 of them in His first advent; that leaves 224 left unfulfilled.

When is He going to fulfill them?

John Hagee is wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

John Hagee is wrong.

How many are there, then?

 

[thereselittleflower]

How many are there, then?

One . that he is coming back to get His Church and usher in the judgement.

 

[AV1611VET]

One . that he is coming back to get His Church and usher in the judgement.

Alrighty then.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine, eh?

 

[Koakku]

The book of Revelation is full of symbolic language - numbers are especially symbolic. They are not literal. The book is not written to be read literally.

Are you aware that at the time John wrote this, it was entitled "The Apocalypse of John" and that apocalyptic works are a genre popular at the time, and there were many others written as well?

This is not a book about specific prophecies of the end times. This is a book written in a genre that engages in the high use of symbolism to tell of the ultimate victory of good over evil, and in christiain apocalyptic writing, of God and the Church over satan and evil.

This is not a prophetic book in the traditional sense of the word. It is apocalyptic and highly symbolic.

The end times and the Anti-Christ and great tribulation was spoken about multiple times before the book of revelations though.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Alrighty then.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine, eh?

sure you are I would never deny you that.

But don't you want truth more than an opinion?

 

[thereselittleflower]

The end times and the Anti-Christ and great tribulation was spoken about multiple times before the book of revelations though.

Would you like to go over those refernces? Just because they are spoken of doesn't make Darby's teaching right. Personally, I have gone over every single reference in my search for the truth of the matter that was my . . oh my goodness.. that was 9 years ago! Wow. It's been that long? It feels like yesterday!

 

[AV1611VET]

Would you like to go over those refernces?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Koakku]

Would you like to go over those refernces? Just because they are spoken of doesn't make Darby's teaching right. Personally, I have gone over every single reference in my search for the truth of the matter that was my . . oh my goodness.. that was 9 years ago! Wow. It's been that long? It feels like yesterday!

Sure.
1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Daniel's Vision.
Daniel Chapter 7

Christ talking about the end times in the gospels and the end of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 "But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies."

and probably many more if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Ave Maria]

No, there is no great tribulation. The tribulation Jesus fortold already happened. See my post above. It is a myth, created by Darby. Why run after myths and fables?

I am not sure if you and I mean the same thing by tribulation but the Church does teach that there will be a period of intense persecution and trial that the Church must go through before the final return of Jesus Christ. Here is the teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

574 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
575 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
576 Cf. 2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22.
577 Cf. DS 3839.
578 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
579 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
580 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
581 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pet 3:12-13.

SOURCE: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 7

 

[Tangible]

As one who was brought up in a Millennialist environment, I can understand how difficult it is to separate Millennial Dispensationalism from your Evangelical Christian religion. When you are taught to read the bible through the lens of Dispensationalism, it seems as though that is indeed an integral part of the Christian faith.

I would encourage you to consider the fact that the historical church never taught anything like Dispensationalism. It was invented out of whole cloth in the late 1800s.

 

[CityOfGod]

Sure.
1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Daniel's Vision.
Daniel Chapter 7

Christ talking about the end times in the gospels and the end of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 "But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies."

and probably many more if i'm not mistaken.

I don't think that she is denying that Anti-Christ will come or that these things take place at the last trumpet.

 

[Koakku]

I don't think that she is denying that Anti-Christ will come or that these things take place at the last trumpet.

She stated that there is no great tribulation so if the Anti-Christ was to come such as these things mentioned, what would that be?

 

[CityOfGod]

She stated that there is no great tribulation so if the Anti-Christ was to come such as these things mentioned, what would that be?

Some people like myself don't believe in a 7 year great tribulation. It's not necessarily that we don't believe in tribulation per say. Or that Anti-Christ will come. We believe in those things.

 

[AV1611VET]

Some people like myself don't believe in a 7 year great tribulation.

What about a 3½ year Great Tribulation then?