Defending devotion to the Saints

[Zeek]

Hello Zazal. Unfortunately I think you are misinterpreting the words in the prayers and the things that people are doing when they venerate teh saints. It may look like worship on the outside but believe me, it is definitely not worship. Now, if any Catholic does worship the saints then they are unorthodox and are not in good standing with the Church. A faithful and orthodox Catholic would never worship the saints. May I ask what prayers in particular you have trouble with?

Hello AM,

I could quote any one of numerous prayers, but lets take this one to Jude:

O Holy St Jude!
Apostle and Martyr,
great in virtue and rich in miracles,
near kinsman of Jesus Christ,
faithful intercessor for all who invoke you,
special patron in time of need;
to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart,
and humbly beg you,
to whom God has given such great power,
to come to my assistance;
help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition.
I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me
and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you.Amen.

Jude is called holy...but only G-d is holy.

Rev 15:4-“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU,
FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.”

It ends by talking of getting graces and favors from a departed saint....where in the world does one get such a notion?

Then the finale talks about spreading devotion to Jude....it is alien to Scripture....we might honour his memory or something, but to try and communicate with the departed in such a way is just wrong ....our prayers should be directed to the L-rd alone.

Please show me the authority that enables you to undertake such a thing, and where the faith comes to believe this departed soul has the ear of the L-rd and can get Him to help you have graces and favours....and why would this be necessary when we can go directly to the L-rd in the first place?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The position of our Confessional Lutheran Churches is found in the Augsburg Confession, Article XXI, Worship of the Saints (http://bookofconcord.org/):

Article XXI: Of the Worship of the Saints.

1] Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. 2] For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. 3] He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1: 4] If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc.

 

[narnia59]

Hello AM,

I could quote any one of numerous prayers, but lets take this one to Jude:

O Holy St Jude!
Apostle and Martyr,
great in virtue and rich in miracles,
near kinsman of Jesus Christ,
faithful intercessor for all who invoke you,
special patron in time of need;
to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart,
and humbly beg you,
to whom God has given such great power,
to come to my assistance;
help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition.
I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me
and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you.Amen.

Jude is called holy...but only G-d is holy.

Rev 15:4-“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU,
FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.”

You are using this Scripture completely out of the context of Scripture. It does not preclude others from also being called holy -- if it does Scritpure is quite contradictory as it refers to the angels, prophets, apostles, children of believing parents, and the 'brethren' -- believers in general as all being holy. Surely you know this?

Rather we should understand God alone as being in holy in the context of Romans 11 -- "16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches." We are only holy because of our union with God.

So yes, it is perfectly appropriate within the context of Scripture to refer to St. Jude as being holy.

It ends by talking of getting graces and favors from a departed saint....where in the world does one get such a notion?

Is your issue here the 'departed' part, or do you fail to recognize that believers are stewards of God's grace?

Then the finale talks about spreading devotion to Jude....it is alien to Scripture....we might honour his memory or something, but to try and communicate with the departed in such a way is just wrong ....our prayers should be directed to the L-rd alone.

Please show me the authority that enables you to undertake such a thing, and where the faith comes to believe this departed soul has the ear of the L-rd and can get Him to help you have graces and favours....and why would this be necessary when we can go directly to the L-rd in the first place?

I am curious -- do you believe the Jews have been in error all of these centuries by seeking the intercession of Rachel? Why do you believe Jesus and the apostles failed to address and correct this practice rooted in Judaism if it should not have been done? And why if it's so contradictory to Scripture does Jeremiah 31 affirm the concept by Rachel successfully interceding for her Jewish descendants before the throne of God, long after she's "dead"?

Where is the condemnation of the apostles and Christ of this practice? Why does Matthew validate it by quoting Jeremiah and indicate Rachel is once more weeping for her children when the innocents in Bethlehem are massacred?

"Throughout our history it is to her Tomb that Jews have flocked day and night to pour out their hearts, their pain and their deepest secrets, and to be comforted by Rachel. "

http://www.rachelstomb.org/midnight.html

Rachel's Tomb - - Israel

Thousands at Rachel’s Tomb - Jewish World - News - Israel National News

The Tomb of Rachel

Kever Rachel - When visiting 'Mamma' is dangerous



Why is it necessary? Because "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you". (1 Cor. 12:21). Aside from that, the author of Hebrews is clear that these OT saints are not made perfect "apart from us" (Heb 11:40). We cannot say we do not need them, and they certainly need us, per Scripture.

 

[narnia59]

The position of our Confessional Lutheran Churches is found in the Augsburg Confession, Article XXI, Worship of the Saints (http://bookofconcord.org/):

Yet there would be no problem in seeking the intercession of those living I suppose. So is the issue here from a Lutheran perspective really about asking others to intercede for you, or only in particular about asking those saints in heaven to intercede for you?

 

[narnia59]

Like I said, there's scriptural support for honoring certain of the deceased, but there's not a sense of attempting to communicate with them.

Scripture says we already are in communication with them -- they surround us (Heb 12:1 -- which frankly is impossible for them to do if they have no awareness of us), and we come into their presence every time we approach the throne of grace (Heb 12:22-24).

The concept that we can come into the presense of Christ without coming into the presence of his heavenly saints is what is quite unscriptural.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Scripture says we already are in communication with them -- they surround us (Heb 12:1 -- which frankly is impossible for them to do if they have no awareness of us), and we come into their presence every time we approach the throne of grace (Heb 12:22-24).

The concept that we can come into the presense of Christ without coming into the presence of his heavenly saints is what is quite unscriptural.

In Isaiah 8:19, it is written, why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

In Deuteronomy 18:11-12, it is written that anyone who consults with the dead is detestable to the Lord.

Isaiah 8:19 "When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
Furthermore, it is written that there is only one Mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Let us not forget what happened to Saul when he consulted Samuel, after Samuel had died. This account of what happened to Saul is written in 1 Samuel 28:3-19.

 

[Adaephon]

Let us not forget what happened to Saul when he consulted Samuel, after Samuel had died. This account of what happened to Saul is written in 1 Samuel 28:3-19.

I'm confused. That isn't relevant to this topic.

 

[narnia59]

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
Furthermore, it is written that there is only one Mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

And right before St. Paul tells Timothy that there is only one Mediator between God and man, he tells him that he urges that "intercessions" be made for all men -- by each other. Intercessory prayer whereby Christians pray for each other and intercede each other does not contradict Christ's role as the only mediator between God and man. In fact, it is because of Christ's mediation that we are able to intercede for one other.

And indeed no one comes to the Father but through Christ. Intercessory prayer by others for us is not going to someone else instead of Christ to the Father. Never has been, and never will be.

 

[narnia59]

In Isaiah 8:19, it is written, why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

In Deuteronomy 18:11-12, it is written that anyone who consults with the dead is detestable to the Lord.

Isaiah 8:19 "When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.

Consulting the dead is indeed wrong. If we are trying to elicit information from them about the future -- that would indeed be destable. The Catholic faith forbids any attempts to consult the dead to obtain information -- seances, tarot cards, ouija boards, mediums -- even horoscopes.

Requesting their prayers and intercession is not 'consulting' them to try to obtain information about the future. It's petitioning them as members of the body of Christ to pray for us. And the Scriptures I provided show they are aware of us, and whether we know it or not, we are in contact with them. Therefore, it's not wrong to 'contact' them. It would simply be wrong to try to 'consult' them to gain knowledge that we are not supposed to have at this point in time.

Please go back and read the links I posted about the Jewish practice of asking their matriarch Rachel for intercession. Why does Matthew affirm this practice by quoting Jeremiah when the innocents are massacred instead of taking the opportunity to condemn it?

 

[narnia59]

Let us not forget what happened to Saul when he consulted Samuel, after Samuel had died. This account of what happened to Saul is written in 1 Samuel 28:3-19.

Yes, he had a medium conjure up Samuel from the dead trying to learn the future. Foolish indeed. By all means if you can't discern the difference between that and asking a saint to pray for you, then by all means you shouldn't do so.

 

[narnia59]

I'm confused. That isn't relevant to this topic.

Ironically the story somewhat supports the truth that the saints are (or can be by God's allowance) aware of what's going on here on earth. Samuel did come forth (and Scripture is quite clear that it really is Samuel, not an apparition or demon). It's Saul's purpose in doing so (to find out information about the future) and the use of a medium that's destastable to God. But God allows Samuel to be aware of the request and come forward to speak the truth to Saul nonetheless.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I'm confused. That isn't relevant to this topic.

It is written that consulting the dead is detestable to the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:11-12). And as I wrote in my previous post, as it is written in Isaiah 8:19, why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17) is it written that Christians who have died in Christ (Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Hebrews 9:27) have the omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence necessary for them to hear and answer all the countless prayers of people, from all over the world, who pray to them. However, Scripture is clear that God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17; Revelation 19:6) and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-13; Jeremiah 23:23), and therefore He is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). Likewise, Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). Jesus alone is our Mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5) and we can come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need (Hebrews 4:16).

 

[Tzaousios]

Let us not forget what happened to Saul when he consulted Samuel, after Samuel had died. This account of what happened to Saul is written in 1 Samuel 28:3-19.

In order for this to apply, one would have to show that intercession of the saints is the same thing as engaging in witchcraft or consulting mediums in the same way that Saul did.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Let us not forget what happened to Saul when he consulted Samuel, after Samuel had died. This account of what happened to Saul is written in 1 Samuel 28:3-19.

In order for this to apply, one would have to show that intercession of the saints is the same thing as engaging in witchcraft or consulting mediums in the same way that Saul did.

That is true. I concede that I made a mistake using this passage as an example. And I humbly apologize for my mistake.

 

[narnia59]

That is true. I concede that I made a mistake using this passage as an example. And I humbly apologize for my mistake.

It's easy to misapply Scripture, and you are not the first to use that example. I'm glad you understand now that it's not really applicable to the practice of asking the saints in heaven to pray for us. Something learned is always a good thing.

 

[narnia59]

It is written that consulting the dead is detestable to the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:11-12). And as I wrote in my previous post, as it is written in Isaiah 8:19, why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17) is it written that Christians who have died in Christ (Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Hebrews 9:27) have the omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence necessary for them to hear and answer all the countless prayers of people, from all over the world, who pray to them. However, Scripture is clear that God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17; Revelation 19:6) and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-13; Jeremiah 23:23), and therefore He is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). Likewise, Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). Jesus alone is our Mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5) and we can come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need (Hebrews 4:16).

The idea that in order to hear our prayers one in heaven has to be omnipresent or omniscient is false.

Scripture tells us the angels in heaven are aware and rejoice every time a sinner repents, and nobody professes that means they are omnipresent or omniscient. But if we profess the saints are aware of our prayers, immediately people conclude that means we think the saints have to be omniscient and/or omnipresent, which are indeed attributes only God possesses. But there's really no difference in the angels being aware enough of what's happening all over the world to know when any sinner, anywhere repents, and the saints being aware when people are requesting their help.

How exactly do the angels and saints know these things? We don't profess to know, but since they are in the full presence of God who is all knowing, I'm sure that has everything to do with it.

And Hebrews 4:16 does indeed profess we can boldly come to the throne of grace. And Hebrews 12:22-23 tells us we're going to find the angels and saints there too. People can choose to ignore their presence if they wish, but that doesn't change the fact that per Scripture, they are there.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Yet there would be no problem in seeking the intercession of those living I suppose. So is the issue here from a Lutheran perspective really about asking others to intercede for you, or only in particular about asking those saints in heaven to intercede for you?

I know where you are going with this; no, there is no issue with asking anyone in this life, a friend, family member or our Pastor to pray for us. In doing so, it is my hope that they would bring my request to Jesus Christ, not one or more of the Saints, as I know that Jesus Christ hears the prayers of all the faithful.

From Revelation, it seems that those who have gone before us do offer praise and intercessions before Christ; just as we do in our Churches here on earth, for we do model our worship on the examples set before us in Scripture.

What we are not certain of is that those who have gone before us can hear us. It's likely that they, having lived their earthly lives, are aware of the needs of mankind and that the intercessions that they offer are of a general nature. It's possible (but not certain) that they may be able to look down upon us from heaven and see what we need, and offer intercessions for us. It is even possible (but in light of Scripture, unlikely) that they can hear us, and will intercede for us, based on our requests to do so.

All that we know for certain is that this practice is based on tradition only; there is no support for this practice in Scripture. DiligentlySeeingGod provided these quotes; and there are many others:

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
Furthermore, it is written that there is only one Mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

Seeing how God's Holy Word directs us to approach God, one can only conclude that asking the saints to intercede for us is at odds with Scripture.

We do know from God's Holy Word, without any doubt, that we can and should ask Jesus Christ to take our prayers to God the Father.

Now, I doubt that God would punish faithful Christians for asking a saint(s) to pray for for them; but it's entirly possible that such requests may be falling on deaf ears, and that such a request may be unfulfilled.

Narnia, you also posted this:

And right before St. Paul tells Timothy that there is only one Mediator between God and man, he tells him that he urges that "intercessions" be made for all men -- by each other. Intercessory prayer whereby Christians pray for each other and intercede each other does not contradict Christ's role as the only mediator between God and man. In fact, it is because of Christ's mediation that we are able to intercede for one other.

And indeed no one comes to the Father but through Christ. Intercessory prayer by others for us is not going to someone else instead of Christ to the Father. Never has been, and never will be.

No argument here, except that when we look at the context, it seems most apparent that St. Paul is talking about the Church on Earth; nowhere does it lead us to believe that St. Paul is speaking of the faithful departed saints as well.

Pax Domini

 

[narnia59]

I know where you are going with this; no, there is no issue with asking anyone in this life, a friend, family member or our Pastor to pray for us. In doing so, it is my hope that they would bring my request to Jesus Christ, not one or more of the Saints, as I know that Jesus Christ hears the prayers of all the faithful.

From Revelation, it seems that those who have gone before us do offer praise and intercessions before Christ; just as we do in our Churches here on earth, for we do model our worship on the examples set before us in Scripture.

The issue in using that Scripture as a prooftext to not ask the saints in heaven for prayer is the implication that it is a denial of the role of Jesus Christ as being the sole mediator between God and man. If that's true, consistency would demand that asking people on earth for prayer would be problematic in the exact same way.

I'm glad you agree that those in heaven are offering intercessions before Christ.

What we are not certain of is that those who have gone before us can hear us. It's likely that they, having lived their earthly lives, are aware of the needs of mankind and that the intercessions that they offer are of a general nature. It's possible (but not certain) that they may be able to look down upon us from heaven and see what we need, and offer intercessions for us. It is even possible (but in light of Scripture, unlikely) that they can hear us, and will intercede for us, based on our requests to do so.

It is certain that they are aware enough of us to 'surround' us (Hebrews 12:1). It is certain than when we approach the throne of grace in prayer in the New Jerusalem, that they are present and we also approach them (Hebrews 12:23). You concede they intercede for us. We know they have no 'ears' but few would profess that means they cannot communicate with each other because of this. Communication for them is certainly not in a physical sense, and therefore not limited by time or space. So how do you profess that it's unlikely they can hear us?

All that we know for certain is that this practice is based on tradition only; there is no support for this practice in Scripture. DiligentlySeeingGod provided these quotes; and there are many others:

There is certainly support in the Jewish tradition of praying at Rachel's tomb which has been deeply imbedded in Jewish culture for centuries before Christ and continues to this day. Jesus and the apostles never condemn this practice; Matthew in all practicality confirms it when he cites Jeremiah and Rachel weaping for her children as he records the massacre of the innocents. There is no condemnation of the practice in Scripture, and there certainly is implicit support in Matthew's reference to Rachel with no condemnation.

And neither of those Scriptures are ever interpreted to mean that we cannot or should not ask another Christian to pray for you. Unless of course, they're dead. That seems to be the qualifying factor -- if you approach a Christian living on earth to pray for you it in no way contradicts Christ as being the sole mediator between God and man. If you ask a Christian living in heaven to pray for you -- it does. There is no logic in that.

Seeing how God's Holy Word directs us to approach God, one can only conclude that asking the saints to intercede for us is at odds with Scripture.

We do know from God's Holy Word, without any doubt, that we can and should ask Jesus Christ to take our prayers to God the Father.

Only if asking the saints on earth to intercede for us is at odds with Scripture. This not an either/or. I know of no one who asks the saints for intercession who does not also approach God directly. It is not a substitute for approaching God anymore than you would see asking someone else to pray for you as such.

So yes, we do indeed know from Scripture that we can and should approach God directly.

Now, I doubt that God would punish faithful Christians for asking a saint(s) to pray for for them; but it's entirly possible that such requests may be falling on deaf ears, and that such a request may be unfulfilled.

Narnia, you also posted this:


No argument here, except that when we look at the context, it seems most apparent that St. Paul is talking about the Church on Earth; nowhere does it lead us to believe that St. Paul is speaking of the faithful departed saints as well.

Pax Domini

There are not 'two' bodies of Christ. There is one body of Christ, and it consists of those who are in heaven and on earth:

Colossians 1:
18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

And St. Paul is clear in his teaching on this one body of Christ that:

"The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'" (1 Cor 12:21). If we truly believe the one body of Christ consists of those both in heaven and earth, we cannot deny that we have need of those saints in heaven.

And he says "That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer , all the members suffer with it ; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." (1 Cor 25:26)

So do you believe there is only one body of Christ, and it consists of those in heaven and on earth? Are St. Paul's words about the body of Christ true -- do we need them? Is there truly no schism/division in the body? Professing that it's okay to ask members of the body on earth to pray for us but not those in heaven most definitely creates a division, yet St. Paul says there is none. Do you believe they care for us? Suffer with us? Rejoice with us? How -- unless they are aware of our concerns?

Or is the concept of the body, of which Christ is the head and reconciled heaven and earth into this one body merely one of nice poetic imagery but in no way a practical reality?