Defending devotion to the Saints

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The issue in using that Scripture as a prooftext to not ask the saints in heaven for prayer is the implication that it is a denial of the role of Jesus Christ as being the sole mediator between God and man. If that's true, consistency would demand that asking people on earth for prayer would be problematic in the exact same way.

I knew that this is were we were going; Sure, If one picks and chooses from Scripture; but taking Scripture as a whole there are many examples of persons in this life praying for others: Love your enemies and pray for them. Mt 5:44; Finally Brothers, pray for us 2Th 3:1; I have prayed for you... Lk 22:32; there are lot's more.

I'm glad you agree that those in heaven are offering intercessions before Christ.

Rev. 5:8 ...each holding a harp and a bowl of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

It is certain that they are aware enough of us to 'surround' us (Hebrews 12:1). It is certain than when we approach the throne of grace in prayer in the New Jerusalem, that they are present and we also approach them (Hebrews 12:23). You concede they intercede for us. We know they have no 'ears' but few would profess that means they cannot communicate with each other because of this. Communication for them is certainly not in a physical sense, and therefore not limited by time or space. So how do you profess that it's unlikely they can hear us?

"Profess" is a bit strong. The Bible, the Holy word of God, tells me to pray only to Christ as my intercessor. The Catholic Church tells me I can (should?) ask for the intercessions of the faithful departed. If I'm indeed in error, then I have chosen to err on the side of caution.

There is certainly support in the Jewish tradition of praying at Rachel's tomb which has been deeply imbedded in Jewish culture for centuries before Christ and continues to this day. Jesus and the apostles never condemn this practice; Matthew in all practicality confirms it when he cites Jeremiah and Rachel weaping for her children as he records the massacre of the innocents. There is no condemnation of the practice in Scripture, and there certainly is implicit support in Matthew's reference to Rachel with no condemnation.

This example in Matt. 2:8 does indeed illustrate that the saints do intercede; Rachel died in childbirth, and was weeping for her Children in exile (Jeremiah 31:15). This is cited by St. Matthew in that it anticipates the circumstances of Jesus' birth; the slaughter of the Holy Innocents where again weeping is raised again from Bethlehem to Ramah.

And neither of those Scriptures are ever interpreted to mean that we cannot or should not ask another Christian to pray for you. Unless of course, they're dead. That seems to be the qualifying factor -- if you approach a Christian living on earth to pray for you it in no way contradicts Christ as being the sole mediator between God and man. If you ask a Christian living in heaven to pray for you -- it does. There is no logic in that.

Only if asking the saints on earth to intercede for us is at odds with Scripture. This not an either/or. I know of no one who asks the saints for intercession who does not also approach God directly. It is not a substitute for approaching God anymore than you would see asking someone else to pray for you as such.

So yes, we do indeed know from Scripture that we can and should approach God directly.

Yes, God's Holy word tells us who we must turn to as intercessor (Jesus Christ); we are to pray for others, and others may pray for us. The faithful departed do intercede for us; and it would seem that since there is no mention of requesting their intercessions, that they do so as a matter of free will.

There are not 'two' bodies of Christ. There is one body of Christ, and it consists of those who are in heaven and on earth:

Colossians 1:
18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

And St. Paul is clear in his teaching on this one body of Christ that:

"The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'" (1 Cor 12:21). If we truly believe the one body of Christ consists of those both in heaven and earth, we cannot deny that we have need of those saints in heaven.

And he says "That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer , all the members suffer with it ; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." (1 Cor 25:26)

So do you believe there is only one body of Christ, and it consists of those in heaven and on earth? Are St. Paul's words about the body of Christ true -- do we need them? Is there truly no schism/division in the body? Professing that it's okay to ask members of the body on earth to pray for us but not those in heaven most definitely creates a division, yet St. Paul says there is none. Do you believe they care for us? Suffer with us? Rejoice with us? How -- unless they are aware of our concerns?

Or is the concept of the body, of which Christ is the head and reconciled heaven and earth into this one body merely one of nice poetic imagery but in no way a practical reality?

There are not 'two' bodies of Christ. There is one body of Christ, and it consists of those who are in heaven and on earth:

No dispute here.

My Lutheran roots are showing...

When we Lutherans speak of the two Churches, one visible, one invisible, we are not disputing that there is only one body of Christ. What we are saying is that the visible Church, the one that we see, consists of the various Churches, denominations and sects, their buildings, their institutions; everything that we see. The membership of the "visible Church" consists of both believers and non believers. It is also known as the Church Militant.

The "invisible" Church is made up of the faithful; believers and only believers, regardless of which Church or denomination they belong(ed) to; that is the faithful living here on earth, and the faithful who have died and are now with the Lord. This is also known as the Church Triumphant; this is the Church we confess in the Creeds; the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So yes, there is one true Church, but that Church exists in two realms.

 

[narnia59]

I knew that this is were we were going; Sure, If one picks and chooses from Scripture; but taking Scripture as a whole there are many examples of persons in this life praying for others: Love your enemies and pray for them. Mt 5:44; Finally Brothers, pray for us 2Th 3:1; I have prayed for you... Lk 22:32; there are lot's more.


Rev. 5:8 ...each holding a harp and a bowl of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

"Profess" is a bit strong. The Bible, the Holy word of God, tells me to pray only to Christ as my intercessor. The Catholic Church tells me I can (should?) ask for the intercessions of the faithful departed. If I'm indeed in error, then I have chosen to err on the side of caution.

This example in Matt. 2:8 does indeed illustrate that the saints do intercede; Rachel died in childbirth, and was weeping for her Children in exile (Jeremiah 31:15). This is cited by St. Matthew in that it anticipates the circumstances of Jesus' birth; the slaughter of the Holy Innocents where again weeping is raised again from Bethlehem to Ramah.

Yes, God's Holy word tells us who we must turn to as intercessor (Jesus Christ); we are to pray for others, and others may pray for us. The faithful departed do intercede for us; and it would seem that since there is no mention of requesting their intercessions, that they do so as a matter of free will.



No dispute here.

My Lutheran roots are showing...

When we Lutherans speak of the two Churches, one visible, one invisible, we are not disputing that there is only one body of Christ. What we are saying is that the visible Church, the one that we see, consists of the various Churches, denominations and sects, their buildings, their institutions; everything that we see. The membership of the "visible Church" consists of both believers and non believers. It is also known as the Church Militant.

The "invisible" Church is made up of the faithful; believers and only believers, regardless of which Church or denomination they belong(ed) to; that is the faithful living here on earth, and the faithful who have died and are now with the Lord. This is also known as the Church Triumphant; this is the Church we confess in the Creeds; the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So yes, there is one true Church, but that Church exists in two realms.

Good conversation Mark. I won't be on much today; maybe not at all. The concept of the church militant and triumphant didn't originate with you guys, you know.

So my understanding is you really have a sense that they are at least somewhat aware of us and praying for us; you simply don't think it's appropriate to address them directly?

I guess I'd leave you with 2 thoughts. The first is that I'd contend the church does not really exist in two realms (which to me infers two different realities) but rather two "states" of being. Perhaps just being picky, but I believe it is only because we now see "through a glass darkly" -- it's only our inability to perceive them with our physical senses that limits our knowing their presence more fully and makes us fully dependent upon eyes of faith.

Second, I guess I'd ask you to consider the witness of the faithful for two thousand years. You know, if God really didn't want people praying to the saints, He could simply stop answering prayers in this way. People would catch on pretty quickly, don't you think? But talk to Catholics who practices this, and you'll find countless stories of answered prayers down through the millenia and even to today through the intercession of the saints in heaven. It is unfathomable in my way of thinking that God would reinforce such a practice by actually answering these prayers if He did not approve of the method. In my view it seems much more probable that he answers such prayers because He does approve, and is pleased when we recognize our dependency on them within the body, as He designed His body to be.

Have a blessed day.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Good conversation Mark. I won't be on much today; maybe not at all. The concept of the church militant and triumphant didn't originate with you guys, you know.

I was not on much yesterday either; it's good to be busy. While the doctrine of the "two Churches" has been around for a while, it is something that we continue to hold and teach.

So my understanding is you really have a sense that they are at least somewhat aware of us and praying for us; you simply don't think it's appropriate to address them directly?

We know from Scripture that they do intercede/pray for us. We do not know if they are offering specific intentions, or if they are offering general intentions, much the same way as we do in liturgical usage of the Prayer of the Church or the Great Litany. I think it is safe to say that they are at least aware of humanity, the human condition including how we are affected by sin, death and the devil (they have walked among us); being with the Lord, they understand fully and completely how much we need the Lord than we can with our sinful nature. They have lots to pray about even if they can not hear our thoughts and desires or perceive our immediate physical and/or spiritual needs.

Honestly, it's more that I don't know that it's appropriate to ask the saints for their prayers; I do know that it's appropriate to ask for Christ's intercession.

I guess I'd leave you with 2 thoughts. The first is that I'd contend the church does not really exist in two realms (which to me infers two different realities) but rather two "states" of being. Perhaps just being picky, but I believe it is only because we now see "through a glass darkly" -- it's only our inability to perceive them with our physical senses that limits our knowing their presence more fully and makes us fully dependent upon eyes of faith.

No, I don't think that you are being picky, human words always fall short when discussing the Divine. We do indeed "see through a glass darkly"; we have St. John's Revelation which gives us a glimpse of the joys and glory of Heaven, and a foretaste of our Lord's second coming. We both view the Sacraments and Sacramental Acts as a tangible and real coming together of heaven and earth.

Yet, while we continue to walk in this world, encumbered by our mortal bodies, there is much that "surpasses all understanding".

Second, I guess I'd ask you to consider the witness of the faithful for two thousand years. You know, if God really didn't want people praying to the saints, He could simply stop answering prayers in this way. People would catch on pretty quickly, don't you think? But talk to Catholics who practices this, and you'll find countless stories of answered prayers down through the millenia and even to today through the intercession of the saints in heaven. It is unfathomable in my way of thinking that God would reinforce such a practice by actually answering these prayers if He did not approve of the method. In my view it seems much more probable that he answers such prayers because He does approve, and is pleased when we recognize our dependency on them within the body, as He designed His body to be.

Have a blessed day.

Thank you so much for this great discussion. While I certainly respect the witness of the faithful, the "cloud of witness'" as Scripture puts it; and the traditions of the Church, we Lutherans do employ Scripture as the norm that norms.

Our position on tradition is that all of it must pass the test of God's Holy Word, i.e. the Bible.

Traditions that are not found in Scripture but are supported by Scripture; and traditions which are not found in Scripture, but do not conflict with Scripture are considered Adiaphora and may be held and practised.

As I have previously stated, Scripture does not advise, exhort, or admonish us to seek the intercession of the faithful departed; it does however advise, exhort, admonish, even commands us to seek Christ's intercession. Therefore this is what I do, and this is what Confessional Lutherans continue to do.

I like Philippians 4:7 Paul and Timothy address the the Church at Philippi and remind them (and us) that they (we) are "seeing through a glass darkly":

And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

From Philippians 4:23

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

 

[Zeek]

You are using this Scripture completely out of the context of Scripture. It does not preclude others from also being called holy -- if it does Scritpure is quite contradictory as it refers to the angels, prophets, apostles, children of believing parents, and the 'brethren' -- believers in general as all being holy. Surely you know this?

Hi,

Yes of course I know it Narnia, but the way Jude is addressed in this prayer gives me the strong impression he is being addressed in much the same way the L-rd Himself is adressed.

Is your issue here the 'departed' part, or do you fail to recognize that believers are stewards of God's grace?

I simply ask where does the whole idea originate from?

I am curious -- do you believe the Jews have been in error all of these centuries by seeking the intercession of Rachel? Why do you believe Jesus and the apostles failed to address and correct this practice rooted in Judaism if it should not have been done? And why if it's so contradictory to Scripture does Jeremiah 31 affirm the concept by Rachel successfully interceding for her Jewish descendants before the throne of God, long after she's "dead"?

I believe there are a number of practices in modern Judaism that are not acceptable...including prayers to the dead.

Jesus and the Apostles addressed many issues, but within the Apostles teaching was enough to show that seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted. Sometimes there are explicit instructions, at other times a general overview...and it is from these that we accept of reject certain things...that is what sound teaching is all about.

Regarding the quote from Jeremiah 31:15...it is fanciful to try and use this solitary scripture as evidence that Rachel was praying...

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

The language is prosaic and Rachel is referred to because of the state of Israel at the time...just as she died sorrowfully giving birth to Benjamin, now she mourns on behalf of Israel whose sons have been taken into captivity...it is beautifully evocative imagery that is rooted in historical facts, and in no way is any sort of endorsement to petition the dead.

Where is the condemnation of the apostles and Christ of this practice? Why does Matthew validate it by quoting Jeremiah and indicate Rachel is once more weeping for her children when the innocents in Bethlehem are massacred?

See above. That is a real stretch and no mistake.

"Throughout our history it is to her Tomb that Jews have flocked day and night to pour out their hearts, their pain and their deepest secrets, and to be comforted by Rachel. "

http://www.rachelstomb.org/midnight.html

Rachel's Tomb - - Israel

Thousands at Rachel’s Tomb - Jewish World - News - Israel National News

The Tomb of Rachel

Kever Rachel - When visiting 'Mamma' is dangerous

In many ways there is an element here that gradually formed into Catholic practice...eg praying to the dead (I know who are alive in Heaven)...but originally they would gather on the day a saint was martyred and celebrate his life.....no problemo, but this descended into actually petitioning the departed...big problemo.

Here I think most Jews identify with what Rachel represents, and pray from their heart to G-d. or even identify with her and the suffering she saw and what she represents to Israel.....if some of them are praying to Rachel, it is not a biblical practice and is to be avoided. IMHO.

Why is it necessary? Because "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you". (1 Cor. 12:21). Aside from that, the author of Hebrews is clear that these OT saints are not made perfect "apart from us" (Heb 11:40). We cannot say we do not need them, and they certainly need us, per Scripture.

You are trying to bring scriptures together wrongly like 2+2=5..it doesn't work....1Cor 12:21 is specifically to the Body functioning in every area in the here and now on earth.

Heb 11: 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

But this is talking about those under the Older Covenant who looked forward to Jesus, being joined to those under the Newer Covenant looking back to Jesus...He is the Saviour through faith to all concerned...that is the whole point of the passage, it has nothing whatsoever to do with getting scriptural endorsement to petition the dearly departed....surely you can see this?

 

[narnia59]

Hi,

Yes of course I know it Narnia, but the way Jude is addressed in this prayer gives me the strong impression he is being addressed in much the same way the L-rd Himself is adressed.

If you know that others in Scripture are referred to as holy, then it should be of little concern that addressing Jude as holy is somehow improper.

I understand that the language of such prayers can be a little flowery. However, they are not theology, nor are they liturgical prayers written by the church, for the church. In general they are composed by individuals who are expressing great love and fondness. Should I not tell someone that I love them because I also love God?

I simply ask where does the whole idea originate from?



I believe there are a number of practices in modern Judaism that are not acceptable...including prayers to the dead.

The practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel is not a 'modern' Jewish practice. Historically the Jews date it back to her son Joseph as he's being sold into slavery.

Jesus and the Apostles addressed many issues, but within the Apostles teaching was enough to show that seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted. Sometimes there are explicit instructions, at other times a general overview...and it is from these that we accept of reject certain things...that is what sound teaching is all about.

If seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted, St. Paul would never had told the Corinthians that they must help him by their prayers. Let's be clear -- your objection has nothing to do with seeking help outside of Christ, and everything to do with it's only okay to seek help from those members of the body who are on earth and not those in heaven. I see no explicit or implicit instruction that draws that line anywhere in Scripture.

Regarding the quote from Jeremiah 31:15...it is fanciful to try and use this solitary scripture as evidence that Rachel was praying...

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

The language is prosaic and Rachel is referred to because of the state of Israel at the time...just as she died sorrowfully giving birth to Benjamin, now she mourns on behalf of Israel whose sons have been taken into captivity...it is beautifully evocative imagery that is rooted in historical facts, and in no way is any sort of endorsement to petition the dead.



See above. That is a real stretch and no mistake.

This is more than mere "imagery". Read on. God answers her cries.

"16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country."

Rachel is not merely referred to in a poetic way. According to Scripture, God not only hears but answers her petition.

So we have this example in Scripture of Rachel petitioning God on behalf of her descendants on earth, and God replies to her pleas and grants her request. We have Jewish testimony that this practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel goes back to the time of her son Joseph. And when the innocents in Bethlehem are slaughtered, what reference does Matthew turn to? Once again, Rachel weaping for her children. He not only does not condemn this now centuries-old Jewish practice, he reinforces it by establishing his belief that once again she is being called upon.

In many ways there is an element here that gradually formed into Catholic practice...eg praying to the dead (I know who are alive in Heaven)...but originally they would gather on the day a saint was martyred and celebrate his life.....no problemo, but this descended into actually petitioning the departed...big problemo.

Here I think most Jews identify with what Rachel represents, and pray from their heart to G-d. or even identify with her and the suffering she saw and what she represents to Israel.....if some of them are praying to Rachel, it is not a biblical practice and is to be avoided. IMHO.

Evidently St. Matthew didn't see it that way.

You are trying to bring scriptures together wrongly like 2+2=5..it doesn't work....1Cor 12:21 is specifically to the Body functioning in every area in the here and now on earth.

Heb 11: 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

But this is talking about those under the Older Covenant who looked forward to Jesus, being joined to those under the Newer Covenant looking back to Jesus...He is the Saviour through faith to all concerned...that is the whole point of the passage, it has nothing whatsoever to do with getting scriptural endorsement to petition the dearly departed....surely you can see this?

Please provide your Scriptural evidence that 1 Cor 12:21 is referencing only the body on earth? Because Heb 11 is actually referring to, as you say that joining of those OT saints with the NT believers into ONE body. And there is only ONE body.

And St. Paul is perfectly clear in Colossians 1 that when he refers to this ONE body, the church -- that this is the union of heaven and earth:

18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

There are not two bodies. There is one body, and it consists of those in heaven and on earth. Nowhere in Scripture does it refer to the 'body' as being only those on earth that I am aware of. If you know differently, then please provide the Scripture.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

I simply ask where does the whole idea originate from?
(praying to departed saints)

I believe there are a number of practices in modern Judaism that are not acceptable...including prayers to the dead.
​

The practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel is not a 'modern' Jewish practice. Historically the Jews date it back to her son Joseph as he's being sold into slavery.

You make it out as if the whole thing is acceptable by the Jews to pray
to Rachel...I assure you it isn't, and is very controversial. First and foremost they do not gather there to 'pray to her'...they gather to be with a mother of their nation and to identify with what is recorded of her suffering and loss.

I believe that any that do now pray to Rachel, have crossed the line...whether they practiced this way back or more recently makes no difference, it is not right.



Originally Posted by Zazal

Jesus and the Apostles addressed many issues, but within the Apostles teaching was enough to show that seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted. Sometimes there are explicit instructions, at other times a general overview...and it is from these that we accept of reject certain things...that is what sound teaching is all about.
​

If seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted, St. Paul would never had told the Corinthians that they must help him by their prayers. Let's be clear -- your objection has nothing to do with seeking help outside of Christ, and everything to do with it's only okay to seek help from those members of the body who are on earth and not those in heaven. I see no explicit or implicit instruction that draws that line anywhere in Scripture.

I could have worded that better.

No my objection is twofold.

1. We have one we can petition...our great High Priest, Jesus.
(see the Our Father prayer of Jesus.)

2. There is a vast difference between asking a departed person to grant you this wish this grace and 101 other things only G-d can grant and isn't seen in scripture, and asking a fellow Believer to pray for you or with you...this is seen to be the way a Christian community operates as demonstrated throughout scripture....it's called functioning as part of the Body.



Originally Posted by Zazal

Regarding the quote from Jeremiah 31:15...it is fanciful to try and use this solitary scripture as evidence that Rachel was praying...

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

The language is prosaic and Rachel is referred to because of the state of Israel at the time...just as she died sorrowfully giving birth to Benjamin, now she mourns on behalf of Israel whose sons have been taken into captivity...it is beautifully evocative imagery that is rooted in historical facts, and in no way is any sort of endorsement to petition the dead.


​

This is more than mere "imagery". Read on. God answers her cries.

"16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country."

Rachel is not merely referred to in a poetic way. According to Scripture, God not only hears but answers her petition.

So we have this example in Scripture of Rachel petitioning God on behalf of her descendants on earth, and God replies to her pleas and grants her request. We have Jewish testimony that this practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel goes back to the time of her son Joseph. And when the innocents in Bethlehem are slaughtered, what reference does Matthew turn to? Once again, Rachel weaping for her children. He not only does not condemn this now centuries-old Jewish practice, he reinforces it by establishing his belief that once again she is being called upon.

When you look on the Jewish sites that refer to the Tomb of Rachel, you will notice a mixture of what some say is acceptable and what is not...when I have looked at them (and I checked through all the sites you referenced..thanks)...some of them are into esoteric Jewish philosophy and spirituality, and depart from what is acceptable in main-stream Judaism.

It is interesting that a site I looked at had this to say:-


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Keep in mind, though, since it is forbidden to pray to anyone other than God Himself. We never pray to Mother Rachel nor to Yeshu/Jesus. Praying to dead "saints" is a nornal part of other religions but we pray only to the Holy One, blessed be He and Him alone without intermediary nor will we ever invoke any "son of God".[/SIZE][/FONT]

Prayers

Here is another site that continues in the same flavour....

Chinuch At Home - Jewish education for parents, teachers and homeschoolers - Praying at a gravesite

I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).

Praying at a gravesite

The Jews are famous for praying at the gravesites of deceased relatives, tzadikim and tzikaniyos. However, when praying at a gravesite, one should be very careful to not cross the line to the prohibited --- praying to the dead.
Many years ago, I read an article about Jews praying at the gravesite of Rachel Imeinu (Kever Rachel). The article was very disturbing because it specifically mentioned that Jews were praying to Rachel Imenu. I asked the person who circulated the article what she thought about this trend and she wholeheartedly condone it. I was shocked.
I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).



At the very least the whole idea of praying to Rachel is brought into question and in a way gives a modern day look at how something that was acceptable (eg praying at the tomb of a much loved righteous person) descended into something that went beyond what was acceptable (praying to anyone other than G-d Himself).

Some Jewish people are just as capable and culpable of going beyond the remit of Scripture and what is deemed acceptable traditionally, as some groups of Christians.


cont'd.....................

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

In many ways there is an element here that gradually formed into Catholic practice...eg praying to the dead (I know who are alive in Heaven)...but originally they would gather on the day a saint was martyred and celebrate his life.....no problemo, but this descended into actually petitioning the departed...big problemo.

Here I think most Jews identify with what Rachel represents, and pray from their heart to G-d. or even identify with her and the suffering she saw and what she represents to Israel.....if some of them are praying to Rachel, it is not a biblical practice and is to be avoided. IMHO.
​

Evidently St. Matthew didn't see it that way.

I'm surprised that you have to grasp at straws to try and support an erroneous doctrine...there is no clear indication that praying to departed Believers is acceptable, and certainly no scriptural evidence whatsoever that they have the power and authority to grant our requests....plus that would involve a whole other 'faith' issue...where you believed this saint or that saint could grant these things because....????

Romans 14:23 tells us that what is not of faith is sin, well if no one is evidenced praying to the dead or petitioning them in scripture (which they aren't)...what sort of 'faith' believes such things?





Originally Posted by Zazal

You are trying to bring scriptures together wrongly like 2+2=5..it doesn't work....1Cor 12:21 is specifically to the Body functioning in every area in the here and now on earth.

Heb 11: 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

But this is talking about those under the Older Covenant who looked forward to Jesus, being joined to those under the Newer Covenant looking back to Jesus...He is the Saviour through faith to all concerned...that is the whole point of the passage, it has nothing whatsoever to do with getting scriptural endorsement to petition the dearly departed....surely you can see this?
​

Please provide your Scriptural evidence that 1 Cor 12:21 is referencing only the body on earth?

Do you look at context?

Paul is talking to living menbers of the Body on earth in the here and now, and vs 26says And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

There is no suffering in Heaven...you are stretching credulity by arguing from a position of silence.

Yes we are united with those that have gone before us, but we are not at liberty in any shape or form to seek help from them, or to expect they have the power and authority to answer our prayer requests.


And St. Paul is perfectly clear in Colossians 1 that when he refers to this ONE body, the church -- that this is the union of heaven and earth:

18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

There are not two bodies. There is one body, and it consists of those in heaven and on earth. Nowhere in Scripture does it refer to the 'body' as being only those on earth that I am aware of. If you know differently, then please provide the Scripture.

Yes, but one lot have rested from their labours, and do not have a function that allows them to operate in the physical realm...we are separated by our bodies, but united with them in Jesus.

The Bible deals in reality, not in fanciful doctrines that obscure that reality and superimpose mans speculations over G-ds commands....doesn't matter if it comes from the mouth of a Father of the faith, a beloved martyr, a Pope or any other spiritual dignitary, if it isn't sound doctrine it has to be discarded.

Paul goes even further and states categorically:

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than
the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

The gospel that I received when I came to faith in the Living G-d, did not include instruction and commendations to pray to departed Believers, and I saw no evidence for it myself in the Bible pages I so readily consumed so that I could learn the ways of G-d.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

When you look on the Jewish sites that refer to the Tomb of Rachel, you will notice a mixture of what some say is acceptable and what is not...when I have looked at them (and I checked through all the sites you referenced..thanks)...some of them are into esoteric Jewish philosophy and spirituality, and depart from what is acceptable in main-stream Judaism.

It is interesting that a site I looked at had this to say:-


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Keep in mind, though, since it is forbidden to pray to anyone other than God Himself. We never pray to Mother Rachel nor to Yeshu/Jesus. Praying to dead "saints" is a nornal part of other religions but we pray only to the Holy One, blessed be He and Him alone without intermediary nor will we ever invoke any "son of God".[/SIZE][/FONT]

Prayers

Here is another site that continues in the same flavour....

Chinuch At Home - Jewish education for parents, teachers and homeschoolers - Praying at a gravesite

I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).

Praying at a gravesite

The Jews are famous for praying at the gravesites of deceased relatives, tzadikim and tzikaniyos. However, when praying at a gravesite, one should be very careful to not cross the line to the prohibited --- praying to the dead.
Many years ago, I read an article about Jews praying at the gravesite of Rachel Imeinu (Kever Rachel). The article was very disturbing because it specifically mentioned that Jews were praying to Rachel Imenu. I asked the person who circulated the article what she thought about this trend and she wholeheartedly condone it. I was shocked.
I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).

Zazal, thanks for posting this.

Praying at the grave of Rachel, a loved one, or any "holy" place which inspires us to pray is a good thing. When I visit the Cemetery where all of my ancestors are buried, and where I and my wife will be buried also, I am often inspired to Pray, but not to my ancestors.

BTW, I was also aware of the Jewish prohibition of praying to anyone other than God Himself.

 

[Zeek]

Zazal, thanks for posting this.

Praying at the grave of Rachel, a loved one, or any "holy" place which inspires us to pray is a good thing. When I visit the Cemetery where all of my ancestors are buried, and where I and my wife will be buried also, I am often inspired to Pray, but not to my ancestors.

BTW, I was also aware of the Jewish prohibition of praying to anyone other than God Himself.

Yep I know what you mean bro...I have often wandered in grave yards and got a sense of my own mortality, and been praying as I read the things on some of the tombs.

 

[Kristos]

I will admit that I have never felt compelled toward intercessory prayer in my personal prayer life. I'm not sure why not, I suppose it just never felt necessary. Maybe I'm being too individualistic. But corporate or liturgical prayer is different - in my mind anyway. Liturgical prayer is not really ours at all, but rather our participation in the heavenly. Angels it would seem definitely. Perhaps the saints as well? Could it be that we are not so much asking them to pray "for us", but rather joining them in their continuous prayer for us ALL? I feel that there is perhaps more error in the content of prayers than in to whom they are addressed because they all end in the same place, but the real question is if they are God's will or ours.

 

[Zeek]

I will admit that I have never felt compelled toward intercessory prayer in my personal prayer life. I'm not sure why not, I suppose it just never felt necessary. Maybe I'm being too individualistic. But corporate or liturgical prayer is different - in my mind anyway. Liturgical prayer is not really ours at all, but rather our participation in the heavenly. Angels it would seem definitely. Perhaps the saints as well? Could it be that we are not so much asking them to pray "for us", but rather joining them in their continuous prayer for us ALL? I feel that there is perhaps more error in the content of prayers than in to whom they are addressed because they all end in the same place, but the real question is if they are God's will or ours.

I think you make a fair point....we know that the departed Believers are with G-d as spirits until their bodies are redeemed, and I don't think it is out of order imagining them joined together around the Throne along with the Heavenly Creatures, Angels and Elders. Often when I am in worship I picture the scenario ( sanctified imagination) and think of some departed friends and relatives praising Him even as I do.

But to go beyond this sort of thing and direct prayers to saints and empower them with special abilities just doesn't make biblical sense and doesn't sit right with my Spirit....its almost like believing in super-heroes, each with their own special attribute that they can bestow on you through various graces, just to help you make it in life...which is exactly the way pagan religions developed and they had gods for everything....we don't need this, we have Jesus our all-sufficiency.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I will admit that I have never felt compelled toward intercessory prayer in my personal prayer life. I'm not sure why not, I suppose it just never felt necessary. Maybe I'm being too individualistic. But corporate or liturgical prayer is different - in my mind anyway. Liturgical prayer is not really ours at all, but rather our participation in the heavenly. Angels it would seem definitely. Perhaps the saints as well? Could it be that we are not so much asking them to pray "for us", but rather joining them in their continuous prayer for us ALL? I feel that there is perhaps more error in the content of prayers than in to whom they are addressed because they all end in the same place, but the real question is if they are God's will or ours.

I think you make a fair point....we know that the departed Believers are with G-d as spirits until their bodies are redeemed, and I don't think it is out of order imagining them joined together around the Throne along with the Heavenly Creatures, Angels and Elders. Often when I am in worship I picture the scenario ( sanctified imagination) and think of some departed friends and relatives praising Him even as I do.

But to go beyond this sort of thing and direct prayers to saints and empower them with special abilities just doesn't make biblical sense and doesn't sit right with my Spirit....its almost like believing in super-heroes, each with their own special attribute that they can bestow on you through various graces, just to help you make it in life...which is exactly the way pagan religions developed and they had gods for everything....we don't need this, we have Jesus our all-sufficiency.

Kristos and Zazal; corporate worship, in particular in a traditional historic liturgical format, both east and west, we are indeed joining with the Angels and Saints.

In the Western liturgical tradition (the Mass), in the service of the Sacrament, we begin with the Preface, which is immediately followed by the Sanctus. Since the Church is now in the Season of Epiphany, I will use the one appointed for this season as an example (Taken from "The Lutheran Hymnal" 1941 edition) note the part I have highlighted in green:

And now do we praise Thee that Thou didst send unto us Thine only-begotten Son and that in Him, being found in fashon as a man, thou didst manifest the fullness of Thy Glory. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee and saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth... (The Sanctus from the Revelation of St. John.)

 

[Zeek]

And now do we praise Thee that Thou didst send unto us Thine only-begotten Son and that in Him, being found in fashon as a man, thou didst manifest the fullness of Thy Glory. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee and saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth... (The Sanctus from the Revelation of St. John.)
:

That's good stuff, because we are declaring truth, and can have an assurance through the word of G-d that we are are joining with the Heavenly Host in worship and adoration...we see it through faith, but our faith has substance to it because it was formed through the word of G-d.

The difficulty arises when we go beyond what we recieve full assurance of faith for, and have to build a tradition that counters what is known, and the hand of man can be seen trying to add his own bit to what has been truly revealed. When this sort of thing happens it has a sort of reverse domino effect, where alibi after alibi has to be constructed to cover every eventuality...a type of apologetics that is not disimilar to political spin IMHO.

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by Zazal

In many ways there is an element here that gradually formed into Catholic practice...eg praying to the dead (I know who are alive in Heaven)...but originally they would gather on the day a saint was martyred and celebrate his life.....no problemo, but this descended into actually petitioning the departed...big problemo.

Here I think most Jews identify with what Rachel represents, and pray from their heart to G-d. or even identify with her and the suffering she saw and what she represents to Israel.....if some of them are praying to Rachel, it is not a biblical practice and is to be avoided. IMHO.
​

Evidently St. Matthew didn't see it that way.

I'm surprised that you have to grasp at straws to try and support an erroneous doctrine...there is no clear indication that praying to departed Believers is acceptable, and certainly no scriptural evidence whatsoever that they have the power and authority to grant our requests....plus that would involve a whole other 'faith' issue...where you believed this saint or that saint could grant these things because....????

Romans 14:23 tells us that what is not of faith is sin, well if no one is evidenced praying to the dead or petitioning them in scripture (which they aren't)...what sort of 'faith' believes such things?

The only power and authority the saints in heaven have to grant requests is the same that St. Paul has when Scripture says that he healed the father of Publius in Acts 28, "Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him."

Do you notice how Scripture says that Paul healed him? Do we interpret that to me Paul is the source of power for the healing? Of course not. But he was the instrument of healing, and Scripture finds it perfectly appropriate to say that Paul "healed him".

There is a simple reason God uses people as instruments of his healing and grace -- to build up the body of Christ -- to make us recognize that we truly are dependent upon one another.

What you have failed to show is there was ever a break in the continuity of seeking the intercession of those in heaven. We know the earliest of Christians wrote intercessions to Peter and Paul on the walls of the catacombs requesting their prayers. We know the Jews appealed to Rachel. Where did the apostles address this practice in a negative light?

The Scriptures are not a specific 'how to'. Paul lived with certain groups of Christians for months and years, teaching them how to live the faith. The letters he wrote to these communities deal with specific issues that crop up afterwards -- he addresses those issues and admonishes them to continue to remember all that he told them while he was with them. To claim 'silence' as a condemnation cannot fall into line with Scripture 'alone', especially when the practice is part of the culture.

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by Zazal

You are trying to bring scriptures together wrongly like 2+2=5..it doesn't work....1Cor 12:21 is specifically to the Body functioning in every area in the here and now on earth.

Heb 11: 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

But this is talking about those under the Older Covenant who looked forward to Jesus, being joined to those under the Newer Covenant looking back to Jesus...He is the Saviour through faith to all concerned...that is the whole point of the passage, it has nothing whatsoever to do with getting scriptural endorsement to petition the dearly departed....surely you can see this?
​

Please provide your Scriptural evidence that 1 Cor 12:21 is referencing only the body on earth?

Do you look at context?

Paul is talking to living menbers of the Body on earth in the here and now, and vs 26says And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

There is no suffering in Heaven...you are stretching credulity by arguing from a position of silence.

Yes we are united with those that have gone before us, but we are not at liberty in any shape or form to seek help from them, or to expect they have the power and authority to answer our prayer requests.


And St. Paul is perfectly clear in Colossians 1 that when he refers to this ONE body, the church -- that this is the union of heaven and earth:

18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

There are not two bodies. There is one body, and it consists of those in heaven and on earth. Nowhere in Scripture does it refer to the 'body' as being only those on earth that I am aware of. If you know differently, then please provide the Scripture.

Yes, but one lot have rested from their labours, and do not have a function that allows them to operate in the physical realm...we are separated by our bodies, but united with them in Jesus.

The Bible deals in reality, not in fanciful doctrines that obscure that reality and superimpose mans speculations over G-ds commands....doesn't matter if it comes from the mouth of a Father of the faith, a beloved martyr, a Pope or any other spiritual dignitary, if it isn't sound doctrine it has to be discarded.

Paul goes even further and states categorically:

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than
the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

The gospel that I received when I came to faith in the Living G-d, did not include instruction and commendations to pray to departed Believers, and I saw no evidence for it myself in the Bible pages I so readily consumed so that I could learn the ways of G-d.

I do look at context, most certainly.

You claim that 1 Cor 12 is reference only the body of Christ on earth. It speaks about the body of Christ -- period. The body of Christ that Paul is clear in a couple of different places in Scripture is united in heaven and on earth. Where do you see he makes a distinction that he's only speaking to the body on earth please?

You cite it's not possible, because "There is no suffering in Heaven"

We actually know very little about heaven from Scripture. We know there are great wonders we really can't imagine (1 Cor 2:9). We will indeed rest from our labors, but we will also still be in the service of God (Rev 7:15). The joy of knowing that we completed the race God set before us must be incomparable (Hebrews 12:1). And certainly an absence of physical suffering as we glorify God in spirit and await the resurrection of our physical bodies.

But Christ is in heaven, and we know he feels so very personally when his body on earth suffers that it is no different than his own suffering (Acts 9 ""Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"). Note Jesus doesn't ask Saul why he's persecuting His body on earth -- he is so united to us he views it as persecuting Christ himself.

So the question is -- how united do you think those in heaven are to Christ? As He experiences the suffering of His body on earth, if those in heaven are fully united to Him, how can they not experience the same?

It seems to me that Christians have taken all the promises given in Scripture that the community receives at the end of time, and has applied them to individual Christians at the time of death. They've also constructed a view of Heaven that turns their back on the body on earth (not surround us), and a view that hides them from the reality and truth of what the body on earth is experiencing. In reality, they are supposed to be fully united to Jesus Christ, who IS the truth and supports us in love and compassion, care and concern. How can they not share His concern for His body on earth?

So I respectfully challenge you to prove me wrong. Find a Scripture that supports your view that there is no suffering in heaven to the extent that the body of Christ there is oblivious to our suffering here. Because I've looked, and I can't find anything.

 

[narnia59]

The practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel is not a 'modern' Jewish practice. Historically the Jews date it back to her son Joseph as he's being sold into slavery.

You make it out as if the whole thing is acceptable by the Jews to pray
to Rachel...I assure you it isn't, and is very controversial. First and foremost they do not gather there to 'pray to her'...they gather to be with a mother of their nation and to identify with what is recorded of her suffering and loss.

I believe that any that do now pray to Rachel, have crossed the line...whether they practiced this way back or more recently makes no difference, it is not right.



Originally Posted by Zazal

Jesus and the Apostles addressed many issues, but within the Apostles teaching was enough to show that seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted. Sometimes there are explicit instructions, at other times a general overview...and it is from these that we accept of reject certain things...that is what sound teaching is all about.
​

If seeking help outside of Christ was not to be attempted, St. Paul would never had told the Corinthians that they must help him by their prayers. Let's be clear -- your objection has nothing to do with seeking help outside of Christ, and everything to do with it's only okay to seek help from those members of the body who are on earth and not those in heaven. I see no explicit or implicit instruction that draws that line anywhere in Scripture.

I could have worded that better.

No my objection is twofold.

1. We have one we can petition...our great High Priest, Jesus.
(see the Our Father prayer of Jesus.)

2. There is a vast difference between asking a departed person to grant you this wish this grace and 101 other things only G-d can grant and isn't seen in scripture, and asking a fellow Believer to pray for you or with you...this is seen to be the way a Christian community operates as demonstrated throughout scripture....it's called functioning as part of the Body.



Originally Posted by Zazal

Regarding the quote from Jeremiah 31:15...it is fanciful to try and use this solitary scripture as evidence that Rachel was praying...

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

The language is prosaic and Rachel is referred to because of the state of Israel at the time...just as she died sorrowfully giving birth to Benjamin, now she mourns on behalf of Israel whose sons have been taken into captivity...it is beautifully evocative imagery that is rooted in historical facts, and in no way is any sort of endorsement to petition the dead.


​

This is more than mere "imagery". Read on. God answers her cries.

"16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country."

Rachel is not merely referred to in a poetic way. According to Scripture, God not only hears but answers her petition.

So we have this example in Scripture of Rachel petitioning God on behalf of her descendants on earth, and God replies to her pleas and grants her request. We have Jewish testimony that this practice of seeking the intercession of Rachel goes back to the time of her son Joseph. And when the innocents in Bethlehem are slaughtered, what reference does Matthew turn to? Once again, Rachel weaping for her children. He not only does not condemn this now centuries-old Jewish practice, he reinforces it by establishing his belief that once again she is being called upon.

When you look on the Jewish sites that refer to the Tomb of Rachel, you will notice a mixture of what some say is acceptable and what is not...when I have looked at them (and I checked through all the sites you referenced..thanks)...some of them are into esoteric Jewish philosophy and spirituality, and depart from what is acceptable in main-stream Judaism.

It is interesting that a site I looked at had this to say:-


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+2]Keep in mind, though, since it is forbidden to pray to anyone other than God Himself. We never pray to Mother Rachel nor to Yeshu/Jesus. Praying to dead "saints" is a nornal part of other religions but we pray only to the Holy One, blessed be He and Him alone without intermediary nor will we ever invoke any "son of God".[/SIZE][/FONT]

Prayers

Here is another site that continues in the same flavour....

Chinuch At Home - Jewish education for parents, teachers and homeschoolers - Praying at a gravesite

I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).

Praying at a gravesite

The Jews are famous for praying at the gravesites of deceased relatives, tzadikim and tzikaniyos. However, when praying at a gravesite, one should be very careful to not cross the line to the prohibited --- praying to the dead.
Many years ago, I read an article about Jews praying at the gravesite of Rachel Imeinu (Kever Rachel). The article was very disturbing because it specifically mentioned that Jews were praying to Rachel Imenu. I asked the person who circulated the article what she thought about this trend and she wholeheartedly condone it. I was shocked.
I had the occasion to consult a Halacha book for mourners and came across this excerpt below. I think it is appropriate to learn what's proper to do when praying at a gravesite.
The following is taken from the book, "Mourning in Halacha" by Artscroll.
Correct Intent in Praying at the Grave
When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives, or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh el hameisim).



At the very least the whole idea of praying to Rachel is brought into question and in a way gives a modern day look at how something that was acceptable (eg praying at the tomb of a much loved righteous person) descended into something that went beyond what was acceptable (praying to anyone other than G-d Himself).

Some Jewish people are just as capable and culpable of going beyond the remit of Scripture and what is deemed acceptable traditionally, as some groups of Christians.


cont'd.....................

There are indeed rabbis who teach that while it's okay to pray at Rachel's tomb, that prayer must be directed only to God.

These same rabbis would find fault with Christians for praying to Christ, for similar reasons in their view.

Nonetheless, the tradition dates back to the time of Joseph, and he directly addresses his mother. Regardless of what some rabbis teach, it is evident that the majority of Jews disregard their view.

Which makes it even more puzzling why Scripture over the course of the centuries never condemns the practice.

 

[narnia59]

Here's an interesting one for you Zazal:


This Midrash is one of the earliest sources we have about praying at the grave of a righteous person. Joseph's behavior, however, appears questionable since it is forbidden to speak directly to the dead. However there are two permitted ways to pray by the grave of a tzaddik (a righteous person). The first way is to ask that G-d should answer our prayers in the merit of the tzaddik buried here; and the second way is that the soul of the tzaddik should intercede on our behalf before the Heavenly court. Joseph, in the midst of a great dilemma, was beseeching his mother to intercede for him in Heaven and alter the harsh decree upon him. Thus his act was permitted by Jewish Law. Rachel, from her side, was granted permission to answer his prayers to give him the courage he needed to face the future. As we know, his future in Egypt played a dramatic role in the history of our people.

The Tomb of Rachel

 

[Zeek]

What you have failed to show is there was ever a break in the continuity of seeking the intercession of those in heaven. We know the earliest of Christians wrote intercessions to Peter and Paul on the walls of the catacombs requesting their prayers. We know the Jews appealed to Rachel. Where did the apostles address this practice in a negative light?

I haven't failed to show it because there has never been any need to try and teach against something that was never an excepted practice in the history of Scripture or the Jewish community.

The Scriptures are not a specific 'how to'.

I understand that....they are painted with broad brush strokes, which is why the whole Law can be summed up in loving G-d with your whole being and loving your neighbour like yourself.

Paul lived with certain groups of Christians for months and years, teaching them how to live the faith. The letters he wrote to these communities deal with specific issues that crop up afterwards -- he addresses those issues and admonishes them to continue to remember all that he told them while he was with them.

Yep, I know that.

To claim 'silence' as a condemnation cannot fall into line with Scripture 'alone', especially when the practice is part of the culture.

I have never claimed that silence on the subject is the only reason for not seeking help from departed Believers and the Heavenly Host...the Bible is actually rather specific indetainling what is and what isn't acceptable prractice concerning these things.

1. John 14:6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This goes beyond initial salvation and Jesus being the 'only way'...but is also true in every aspect of the way we approach the Father...you don't do so through Saints, Mary or Angels, only through Jesus.

2. Our Father who art in Heaven....we only go to G-d in Heaven, nobody else...Jesus was emphatic in the way this was taught.

3. The instructions for the Tabernacle and Temple were very specific, everything had to be done in accordance with what G-d revealed...now Jesus is our High-Priest in the Heavenly Tabernacle, and we can approach Him boldly and make our petitions known to Him. The Israelites couldn't go behind the backs of the levitical priesthood and try to access G-d on their own terms....similarly G-d has given us His Son...no one else, through whom we can have access to the throne.

 

[Zeek]

I do look at context, most certainly.

You claim that 1 Cor 12 is reference only the body of Christ on earth. It speaks about the body of Christ -- period. The body of Christ that Paul is clear in a couple of different places in Scripture is united in heaven and on earth. Where do you see he makes a distinction that he's only speaking to the body on earth please?

It is blatantly obvious from the context...He is specifically talking to the living members of the Corinthian congregation.

You cite it's not possible, because "There is no suffering in Heaven"

We actually know very little about heaven from Scripture. We know there are great wonders we really can't imagine (1 Cor 2:9). We will indeed rest from our labors, but we will also still be in the service of God (Rev 7:15). The joy of knowing that we completed the race God set before us must be incomparable (Hebrews 12:1). And certainly an absence of physical suffering as we glorify God in spirit and await the resurrection of our physical bodies.

Agreed.

But Christ is in heaven, and we know he feels so very personally when his body on earth suffers that it is no different than his own suffering (Acts 9 ""Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"). Note Jesus doesn't ask Saul why he's persecuting His body on earth -- he is so united to us he views it as persecuting Christ himself.

Good point.

So the question is -- how united do you think those in heaven are to Christ? As He experiences the suffering of His body on earth, if those in heaven are fully united to Him, how can they not experience the same?

Never thought of it quite like that....I get your point.

It seems to me that Christians have taken all the promises given in Scripture that the community receives at the end of time, and has applied them to individual Christians at the time of death. They've also constructed a view of Heaven that turns their back on the body on earth (not surround us), and a view that hides them from the reality and truth of what the body on earth is experiencing. In reality, they are supposed to be fully united to Jesus Christ, who IS the truth and supports us in love and compassion, care and concern. How can they not share His concern for His body on earth?

Ok I see this possibility.

So I respectfully challenge you to prove me wrong. Find a Scripture that supports your view that there is no suffering in heaven to the extent that the body of Christ there is oblivious to our suffering here. Because I've looked, and I can't find anything.

Do you think a Believer departs this life to enter sorrows in Heaven because of the state of the world...do you think this is indicated as part of the inheritance in Heaven, leaving a physical world of pain and sorrows, to then enter a Heaven full of pain and sorrow because of mans sinfulness? Is there any indication of such a thing?

Rev 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

 

[Kristos]

I'm not sure that framing it as "accessing God on our own terms" is really accurate. It seems to me that God still sets the terms and our "access" is contingent on our trust in Him and His providence. I also don't think that the tearing of the curtain was a reduction of God's relationship with "His people" to a purely one-on-one situation. It was the end of temple worship and the begin of worship in spirit and in truth, but I think scripture shows that this worship continued to be communal, not individual, it just no longer had a place nor time. I only bring this up because I feel that individualism has done so much damage to our culture and our faith and it's so easy to overlook in the name of personal freedom.