DO We Have Free Will?

[granpa]

you dont need freewill to make rational decisions
so the only possible use of freewill would be to make irrational decisions

 

[Giver]

OUCH!! Well, I guess they're warned now!

Sorry, Giver. I was speaking with tongue in cheek. Didn't mean to give offence. I agree with every quote you make above.

Here's what I could have said. We're all sinners..."All have sinned"...you know the verse. Saved sinners will dwell eternally in God's presence; lost sinners will spend eternity elsewhere. The only difference in the two groups of 'sinners' is that the former has their sins washed in the blood of the Lamb; the latter does not.

1 Cor. 6:11. "And such [fornicators, idolaters, effeminate,abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners] were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God".

I posted this post on another thread, but though it would do you some good also.
Let me share something with you. Before Jesus came and died for our sin, and gave us his Holy Spirit to keep us from sinning, people could not defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

Read the following verse and see that the reason we are held to such total obedience to our Lord and God is because we do have the Holy Spirit. The Word tells us that when a spiritual Christian deliberately sin they are insulting the Holy Spirit, and in my understanding that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for that.

I also will quote a verse that says Satan controls a sinner.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”
Jesus personally asked me to give him my life. Jesus let it up to me to say yes or no. It was my will to say yes. Jesus did not just tell me what he wanted me to do.

 

[squint]

- people could not defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

-

I also will quote a verse that says Satan controls a sinner.

And of course you do not see the blatant disconnect in your own head on how blaming only one party above, the person, to the extent of damning them to hell forever for sinning coupled with conveniently letting yourself ENTIRELY off the hook for ANY SUCH INFLUENCES upon your own non-influenced by Satan Holy Self could ever ever ever even be even the remotest possibility. Nay Lord. Nay not I.

Yet alone also show NO FREE WILL because there are factually TWO PARTIES in your own equation both in operation in the SAME LUMP of flesh.

go figure.

Some people don't even get their own picture.

s

 

[bling]

you dont need freewill to make rational decisions
so the only possible use of freewill would be to make irrational decisions

So we all need to be computers?

 

[simonthezealot]

Thanks Tangible.
I agree with much of this except for the duo nature part.
We have one nature now, because we're a new creation.
But we DO sometimes act outside OF our nature perhaps...

But we have one nature.
(Obviously that's my view)

Maybe nature is the wrong word, sarx is more properly translated flesh but this verse shows depending on which side of the proverbial tracks you come from where your disposition leans, it sure seems to indicate we have both but with the spirit we're able to move toward the spiritual...
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit

AND how bout this?
Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

 

[nestoj]

I haven't read the entire topic and, maybe, some of these were already mentioned, but, anyway:

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God gives the choice, we know how it ended.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Moses says - you have a choice, it would be wise if you'd choose life.

Matthew 16:24 - Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Lord teaches of the man's proper mindset if they decide to follow Him.

Matthew 19:17 - "Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

"If you want - do this", implies choice.



But most of all, I think that Luke 7:30 clearly shows the freedom of will in opposition to the God's intentions:
Luke 7:30 - But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.



So, yes - I believe we have a free will.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Jesus personally asked me to give him my life. Jesus let it up to me to say yes or no. It was my will to say yes. Jesus did not just tell me what he wanted me to do.

Thanks Giver. It did me good. I agree with everything you said and all the verses you quoted.

I would just like to add a little to what you say above. All three Persons of the Godhead I believe work to bring you and me to a saving faith, so I agree with your first statement. And yes, I tend to go along with the second also for Heb.10 tells us some come so far and then "draw back unto perdition"...God forces no one in. But without the 'drawing' of the Holy Spirit none would come. Christ Himself said that none would come to Him (of their own will I take it). He also said that none can come unto Him unless the Father draw him. My belief is that God would have all come, and works faithfully towards that end, but for reasons I do not quite understand some refuse to come (reject) while others procrastinate (neglect) and still others have tasted but draw back unto perdition. As you indicate, the Devil plays a far greater role in all this than what he is given credit for.

 

[Rick Otto]

you dont need freewill to make rational decisions
so the only possible use of freewill would be to make irrational decisions

Amen to that.
Next time don't let your grandkids pick out your forum avatar.

 

[sunlover1]

DO We Have Free Will?

Hi sunny.

Sadly, I am not knowledgable on that subject so I don't post much on it.

However, I did find an older thread on this topic and am quoting 1 post from it that appears interesting

[link courtesy of "Lamblinks"]Man there are some CF Old Timers on there!

http://www.christianforums.com/t4997203-2/#post32866858
Scriptural support for "free will"

That's cool!
Thanks Lamblinks lol..

Why can’t people see that letting man teach him or her about God only confuses him or her?

Hi Giver,
To answer your question. I let men teach me because sometimes
God gives a teacher .. God speaks to us in many ways and one is
"through" men. (prophecy, teaching, preaching...)
That's why it says in Eph 4 that GOD set teachers in the church.
But one needs discernment (also mentioned in the Bible) so that
one isn't tricked by men.
I only listen to men that GOD leads me to.

He wants us to have interaction .. to love each other,
to encourage each other, to pray for each other, to
heal each other, to bless each other.. He didn't create us
to only have fellowship with Him alone.

Jesus said that He desired that we all become one.
Hope things are going well!

you dont need freewill to make rational decisions
so the only possible use of freewill would be to make irrational decisions

I let my kids make their own decisions and they make rational ones.

Maybe nature is the wrong word, sarx is more properly translated flesh but this verse shows depending on which side of the proverbial tracks you come from where your disposition leans, it sure seems to indicate we have both but with the spirit we're able to move toward the spiritual...
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit

AND how bout this?
Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

This is good Simon.
I think I want to make a "nature" thread.
Can I use this post?
I don't have to put your name on it if that's
not cool to you.
Or if you don't want me to use it that's fine.
Please advise

 

[Rick Otto]

While I am not aware of any verse in Scripture that proclaims that God gives us free will, it is heavily suggested in many, many verses. For instance, in John 3:15, we find, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.", which suggests that some will choose to believe in Him while others will either not choose to believe or will not respond in any way. And Paul tells us in Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." "Whosoever" denotes that some will choose to call upon Jesus while others will not.

Actually there are an incredible number of verses that seem to denote or suggest free will on the part of men. And, while others (Calvinists mostly) will declare that everything is predestined by God and therefore not any act of free will, such a postion is fraught with problems. Just look at the two verses quoted above. Does it sound like Jesus or Paul is even slightly suggesting that anything (much less everything) is predestined? Or, are they saying that men must make a choice? Besides, if there is only predestination, then why would Jesus tell us that we must do the "work" of God? (John 6:28-29) If God has already done that work, how can we do anything?

The real trouble with predestination is that it requires God to cause sinful actions as well as righteous ones. If God predestines some men for eternal salvation, then He also logically predestines others for eternal destruction. For instance Jesus tells us, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:" Does God cause someone to kill, and someone else not to kill? And why will there even be a "judgement" if everyone is already predestined for either heaven or perdition?

God's omniscience (all-knowing quality) does not in any way declare or require His pre-ordination of certain events.

Of course it does. Every event in HIS knowingly determined creation. God did not create in an uncontrolled spasm.

That fact is well defined in the following to verses (matthew 10:32-33) "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Certainly God already knows who will confess Him before men, and who will not. But, if that activity is already predestined by God, then isn't Jesus' declaration here wasted breath on His part?

Could He have not said that certain individuals would confess Him, and other specific individuals would not?

Instead He said "whosoever", which I personally interpret as leaving it as a matter of our free will whether or not we confess Him.
-Matthan

LLOJ, look at this. First he says about "whosoever":
"...which suggests that some will choose to believe in Him while others will either not choose to believe or will not respond in any way
And then he says:
Could He have not said that certain individuals would confess Him, and other specific individuals would not?

First Matthan argues for free will because (insert first quote) & he concludes by arguing (insert 2nd quote). Which is absurd because the 2nd quote describes the first one. The first statement interprets the scripture & the second statement asks why didn't He just say, exactly what he first interpreted Him as saying.
Do you see that?
This guy has accepted a premise about what Jesus meant &/ or inferred & then asked why didn't Jesus deliver the very words of the premise he interprets Jesus' words to mean.
LLOJ, I respect your service & am grateful for your courage & devotion, but if we are ever to go into these trenches together, I have to be able to rely upon you being able to see thru this kind of hazy thinking.
He has made the common mistake of thinking that in order for a choice to be a choice, it can't be predetermined, along with the error of thinking that determination is authorization. Unauthorized sin is sovereignly allowed to work for the good of those that love Him in that it shows power His longsuffering & the riches of His glory.
Acts 2:23 is a verse displays the personal responsibility of those allowed to sin in God's plan to save His elect remnant:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

​

 

[Hawisher]

you dont need freewill to make rational decisions
so the only possible use of freewill would be to make irrational decisions

Please tell me you're not serious.

 

[Giver]

Thanks Giver. It did me good. I agree with everything you said and all the verses you quoted.

I would just like to add a little to what you say above. All three Persons of the Godhead I believe work to bring you and me to a saving faith, so I agree with your first statement. And yes, I tend to go along with the second also for Heb.10 tells us some come so far and then "draw back unto perdition"...God forces no one in. But without the 'drawing' of the Holy Spirit none would come. Christ Himself said that none would come to Him (of their own will I take it). He also said that none can come unto Him unless the Father draw him. My belief is that God would have all come, and works faithfully towards that end, but for reasons I do not quite understand some refuse to come (reject) while others procrastinate (neglect) and still others have tasted but draw back unto perdition. As you indicate, the Devil plays a far greater role in all this than what he is given credit for.

Jesus over the last few months has given me much insight, and understanding of the power Satan has.

God made promises to Satan that he will not break. Because of these promises Satan can, and does do much hurt.

 

[simonthezealot]

Sunlover srart a thread on that. Good idea.

 

[Rick Otto]

So we all need to be computers?

In a sense. we already are: "Garbage in = garbage out."

 

[Tangible]

Sunlover srart a thread on that. Good idea.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

I haven't read the entire topic and, maybe, some of these were already mentioned, but, anyway:

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God gives the choice, we know how it ended.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Moses says - you have a choice, it would be wise if you'd choose life.

Matthew 16:24 - Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Lord teaches of the man's proper mindset if they decide to follow Him.

Matthew 19:17 - "Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

"If you want - do this", implies choice.



But most of all, I think that Luke 7:30 clearly shows the freedom of will in opposition to the God's intentions:
Luke 7:30 - But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.



So, yes - I believe we have a free will.

Just wondered what you would say about John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".

And this one from Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God".

 

[nestoj]

Just wondered what you would say about John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".

And this one from Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God".

That we're nothing and all our efforts are futile without God? We've always understood that man makes only the first step alone, all other come with God's help. And, indeed, God helps!

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

If Adam and Eve had continued to live in the Garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and with the help the tree of life provides they would have lived forever, but let’s assume what you say is true: Is eternal life as a spiritual being not even better than what Adam and Eve had in the Garden?

If our heavenly home is better than the Garden then living forever in the Garden would keep Adam and Eve from a heavenly home?

Did Adam and Eve’s curse of death eliminate them from an eternal home in heaven?

I think part of the problem for our not seeing eye to eye on this is a difference in how we see the purposes of God in it all. I'm guessing you believe in what others call determinism (I think)...the A,B,C,D that God has marked out so that A leads to B, B to C and so on until His primary objective is reached. I don't subscribe to that (namely because to do so would put God as the author of sin coming into the world), although that is not to say that God will not 'win out' in the end. I see God's plan for man as A. But man does something that spoils that so, rather than toss in the towel, so to speak, God moves to plan B. The spoiling of B results in the introduction of C, and so on till last of all...
For example, I believe what Scripture intimates in Genesis...that God created man, prepared a world for him to operate in, and put him in dominion over it, and he was to remain in that position forever as far as God was concerned. I just yesterday read a little article on this so I will quote it below because I can not put it better.

"Adam as head over creation was to represent God in all - ruling in glory and dominion over God's creation. Man was made in the image (representation) of God. Man/Adam was also to bear moral likeness to his creator in all his ways - man in headship as God's representative and man displaying moral similarity to God in all his ways.
"How quickly, completely and fearfully Adam failed in his responsibility! A careful reading of Romans 1 cannot fail to solemnize the sober reader's mind as, in divine, unsparing clarity, it describes the moral fall and willing alienation of man from his God. What a terrible dishonour to God he so quickly became in the actions of his lost, sinful condition! No longer able to properly represent God as head over creation - exercise dominion or bear moral likeness to God in the world ruined by his own disobedience".

In this view, which I believe to be correct, Adam is not 'programmed' to fail so God could bring in something better. The fact that he did fail speaks to his own disobedience and lack of entrusted responsibility; the fact that God goes one better speaks to the kind of God we have...that where sin abounded grace did much more abound. But that's a totally different thing from God 'determining' that Adam must fail...a horrible doctrine that makes God the author of disobedience and sin.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

That we're nothing and all our efforts are futile without God? We've always understood that man makes only the first step alone, all other come with God's help. And, indeed, God helps!

I've understood that it is God who makes the first step, and many more thereafter...that not one soul would come unless he were drawn by God Himself..."Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life...and ye will not come to me, that ye might have life", John5:39-40. I take it he is referring to the obstinate will of man.

 

[bling]

I think part of the problem for our not seeing eye to eye on this is a difference in how we see the purposes of God in it all. I'm guessing you believe in what others call determinism (I think)...the A,B,C,D that God has marked out so that A leads to B, B to C and so on until His primary objective is reached. I don't subscribe to that (namely because to do so would put God as the author of sin coming into the world), although that is not to say that God will not 'win out' in the end. I see God's plan for man as A. But man does something that spoils that so, rather than toss in the towel, so to speak, God moves to plan B. The spoiling of B results in the introduction of C, and so on till last of all...
For example, I believe what Scripture intimates in Genesis...that God created man, prepared a world for him to operate in, and put him in dominion over it, and he was to remain in that position forever as far as God was concerned. I just yesterday read a little article on this so I will quote it below because I can not put it better.

"Adam as head over creation was to represent God in all - ruling in glory and dominion over God's creation. Man was made in the image (representation) of God. Man/Adam was also to bear moral likeness to his creator in all his ways - man in headship as God's representative and man displaying moral similarity to God in all his ways.
"How quickly, completely and fearfully Adam failed in his responsibility! A careful reading of Romans 1 cannot fail to solemnize the sober reader's mind as, in divine, unsparing clarity, it describes the moral fall and willing alienation of man from his God. What a terrible dishonour to God he so quickly became in the actions of his lost, sinful condition! No longer able to properly represent God as head over creation - exercise dominion or bear moral likeness to God in the world ruined by his own disobedience".

In this view, which I believe to be correct, Adam is not 'programmed' to fail so God could bring in something better. The fact that he did fail speaks to his own disobedience and lack of entrusted responsibility; the fact that God goes one better speaks to the kind of God we have...that where sin abounded grace did much more abound. But that's a totally different thing from God 'determining' that Adam must fail...a horrible doctrine that makes God the author of disobedience and sin.

First off: God goes way beyond human understanding of man and can easily figure out all the options man can do under any situation and the most likely alternatives.

God has only one plan A which is the best plan.

The idea of “Adam was to represent God” is not supported by scripture and to whom would Adam be making this pitifully representation to?

We do need to discuss the objectives since everything can be explained by the objectives, so what is God’s objective in all this?

God is said to be “Love” itself, but let’s just consider what the greatest possible “Love” would be like and what would be its objective. True “Love” can be measured by the amount one is willing to sacrifice for another or saying it another way “the amount of unselfishness one has for another”.

God being the ultimate “Love” would be totally unselfish toward those He Loved and thus willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything for those He Loves. Do you see God willing to make the greatest of sacrifices for humans?

So what would be the ultimate unselfish reason for creating man? Would it be to get something from man or to give something to man?

This totally unselfish being would want to give the greatest possible gift He could give to others, so what would that be?

Would the greatest possible gift not be this same Love He has since it is the most powerful force in all universes compelling God to do all He does?

Can this unique “Love” be placed in a being, by being an instinctive type of love, or could it be programmed into a being a robotic type of love?

Would it be Loving on God’s part to force this “Love” on a being against the being’s will (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and would the love received in such a way be Godly type Love?

God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction, but is a decision on His part, it is not because the person is lovable, but is because God is Love and choses to “Love” the person for the sake of the person. So for us to Love like God Loves it has to be the result of a free will decision to accept that Love with true likely alternatives (so it is not being forced on us). While on earth those likely alternatives are the perceived pleasures of sin, but once we obtain this Love we no longer need the sin alternatives.

So God will quench His own desires to do all He can to help willing humans fulfill their objective and that “all” includes: allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even sin.