Commandments for Gentiles?

[macher]

And christians are not to be separated? I think anyone who calls themselves by the name of the God of Israel should obey the laws of the God of Israel.

Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

 

[yedida]

Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

There are laws regarding unintentional, unknown sin which I'm sure you're well aware of so I won't go into them. Now, does ignorance equal rebellion?

In other words: Your 17 year old son has learned how important it is to set aside time each day to devote that little bit of extra study time for the subject that is not exactly on his "favorites" list so he can achieve not just a passing grade but a really good grade because you desire this of him and he loves you. Your little 6 year old doesn't have the maturity yet to understand the importance of good grades or what's required to achieve them even though he, too, loves you dearly. They have both heard all of their lives about being good students and studying hard. One has incorporated this into his life, one has not - but they both love you more than anything. Is it enough for right now? Do you love the one more? Or do you understand that because the little one does love you with his whole heart, he will learn as he grows because he wants his love for you to reflect in what he does in life?

 

[pat34lee]

Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

I hope so. We are all ignorant of some things. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is lying to themselves. The question is not what do we know, it is what are we doing with what we know?

 

[mishkan]

Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

That's not quite an even-handed question.

There is a difference between ignorance, which can be easily cured, and a theological posture that declares Torah to be abrogated.

When we say someone is "committed to him", what we are really saying is that they follow the version of Yeshua that has been presented to them. If they are taught to follow a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian fellow who is so universalistic that he has no relationship to israel or the Torah... then they might as well not bother.

(That is only an illustration, BTW. The same is true, no matter how we imagine him--if he isn't a Torah observant Jewish sage, then the image is false.)

 

[Yahudim]

That's not quite an even-handed question.

There is a difference between ignorance, which can be easily cured, and a theological posture that declares Torah to be abrogated.

When we say someone is "committed to him", what we are really saying is that they follow the version of Yeshua that has been presented to them. If they are taught to follow a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian fellow who is so universalistic that he has no relationship to israel or the Torah... then they might as well not bother.

(That is only an illustration, BTW. The same is true, no matter how we imagine him--if he isn't a Torah observant Jewish sage, then the image is false.)

Excellent point. As I wrote in response to Toby Janicki's article: That’s a Clown Question, Bro!;

Y'shua IS Torah. He was the epitome of Torah observant. That is what He taught His talmidim to be - correctly observant. So explain to me why would He instruct His talmidim to instruct 'all nations' (goyim) to observe 'all things' that He commanded (Torah)? Because Torah was optional for goyim (as so many of you seem to think) or because all those that believe on Him and follow Torah become adopted into His family and grafted into Israel?

 

[macher]

That's not quite an even-handed question.

There is a difference between ignorance, which can be easily cured, and a theological posture that declares Torah to be abrogated.

When we say someone is "committed to him", what we are really saying is that they follow the version of Yeshua that has been presented to them. If they are taught to follow a blue-eyed, blond-haired Scandinavian fellow who is so universalistic that he has no relationship to israel or the Torah... then they might as well not bother.

(That is only an illustration, BTW. The same is true, no matter how we imagine him--if he isn't a Torah observant Jewish sage, then the image is false.)

So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....

 

[visionary]

So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....

it is progressive... keep up with the light... This is a movement not a denomination... We are a people called by God to move forward in the light of the feasts, the sabbath, the lifestyle of Him, and have a love for His people... it is all good news.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Does Yeshua accept those who might be ignorant of a lot of things but are committed to Him?

That's a good question to consider - and on the issue, it is something that impacts everyone since the reality is that all are ignorant of something, on one level or another. It's why the scriptures note repeatedly the danger of judging - as in "I do more than you do!!!" and procedding to claim others are insufficient followers of Messiah because they are not on a level you approve of...despite the fact that you may have areas where you either are unaware of what you do being off - or are inconsistent with some.

You may keep Kosher from what you understand in Levitcus 11 - thinking it was about DIETARY reasons when much of Judaism has noted it was about seperation - and yet you have a poor prayer life, something that was deemed to be sin in the Tanak since Prayerlessness does those around us a disservice (1 Samuel 12:23, 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:17, Luke 18:1, Matthew 6:6)...and yet the person you judge because they did something you felt was UnKosher actually prays actively for others/intercedes faithfully before the Lord in a manner pleasing in His sight. You may claim you love the Lord/Honor Torah because you keep Shabbat - and yet in the process of railing against others that they "hate God's Torah" because of meeting on Sunday rather than Saturday, you may not realize you're corrupt in God's sight because you have a serious problem with attitudes/back-bitting and gossip on others you disagree with ( Psalm 12:3-4, Proverbs 18:8 , Proverbs 18:13, Col. 4:6 )

James 1:26
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
James 1:25-27

James 3:8-10/ James 3
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.
​

Someone may claim to keep the Laws on purity - and yet in their hearts, they have serious struggles with forgiveness - genuine forgiveness of others - and thus, they decieve themselves since Yeshua made plain in Matthew 6:13 that " if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 , Colossians 3:7-9, etc. )...something Yeshua noted directly in the parable of the Unmerciful Servant and how the Lord responded to him for his treatment of others in Matthew 18:21-35

God also looks at the motives of the heart ( Proverbs 16:2 ) - and thus, it doesn't matter whether or not a person thinks they are observing more than another or doing more - as people can do things for selfish motives such as pride, self-satisfaction or appearing good - all of that being a matter of boasting and a worldly attitude ( 1 John 2:15-17 /1 John 2 )...whereas those who know they struggle/are incomplete are justified in God's sights

The same dynamics occurred in Luke 18:8-14 the same as what occurred with the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, the former continually recognizing his lack while the former continually prided himself on all the things he did according to the law and compared himself to others as the basis of why he was pleasing to God. In God's kingdom there is no allowance for pride or judging others in saying "I'm Torah Observant because I do X, Y and Z and have more concern for it than others" - as the same people doing so already have areas others look at them and say "You need to be doing this...."..and in the event someone says "Well, it just can't be done the same and I do as much as I think is necessary/I'm able to do", they end up placing themselves in the same category as others whom they've deemed as not being concerned with God's law because they equally feel certain things cannot be done or weren't meant to continue. It simply differs on the area.

As is the case with all systems of law, observance will be imperfect, and therefore that should be set aside when establishing what a true. Observance is more about how well a person is walking the Torah path. In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance- eg. a nominal modern Orthodox who is deeply involved in charity can be a good Jew whereas a Hasid who cheats on his taxes but never misses a minyan or a shiur may not be. From what I've studied in the scriptures, it does not seem to have ever been the case that Gentiles needed to keep all 613 laws - nor was it ever the case that those often denoucning Gentiles for not doing so come remotely close to keeping half of them. There has been some excellent discussion from a Messianic perspective over at H4C (as seen here, here, , here , here and Torah Observance - Should Christians Follow the Law?. Also, Joel Chernoff, who was one of the Pioneers of the Messianic Jewish movement, spoke on the issues raised by Ariel ministries back in 2008 when discussing the reality of the ways the Messianic Jewish movement developed and how the Law is seen....as seen here. Television - Programs - Transcript - Messianic 1: The Messianic Jewish Movement..." / Television - Programs - Transcript - Messianic 2: Messianic Jewish ..and he also shared way back in 2006 as well:

Joel Chernoff: Birth Of A Messianic Jew - YouTube​

There are literally hundreds of commandments that aren't kept by anyone, due to lack of a Temple and a functioning priesthood. And all "Torah Observant" people, including the most Orthodox in Judaism, have modified understandings of what it means to keep Torah. Not every law was for every person and all should know that basic reality. For many of the laws are specific one group to the next- Levites, Men, Women, Gentiles etc. It is because of this that many choose to avoid categorically making blanket statements about the Torah and Gentiles since it does not truly deal with the Torah on it's own terms - and as other Messianic Jews have noted, in honoring the Lord, the question scripture raises is never "do Gentiles have to keep Torah" but rather "what parts of the Torah must they keep etc". For others, they tend to go with the Rabbis like Hililel - the one whom most of Yeshua's teachings reflect and who advocated that Gentiles were saved/sanctified by living out what the Lord gave to Noah ....and that acceptance before God never required them to live the same as the Hebrews did.

But ultimately, as said before, the scriptures are clear that we are not to judge the observance of others. And personally, apart from the moral law (the core of it all - specifically hose laws which are summarzied by Yeshua and Hillel etc "do unto others" etc), I don't see where we've been given much room to judge people's observance and be acceptable before the Lord.

Matthew 7
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Luke 6:37
[ Judging Others ] “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Luke 6:36-38



1 Corinthians 4:4-6 Corinthians 4
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

​

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “Do not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
​

James 4:11-13 /James 4
11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

1 Peter 4:8-10/ Peter 4
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms.
​

 

[Yahudim]

So are you saying that Messianic Judaism is the real deal denomination and everyone else is....

Was that your take away? Really? 'Cause that's not what I read.

I think that what Mishkan is saying is that Messiah Y'shua of scripture is about as Orthodox and Torah observant a Jewish Rabbi as you will ever find and that He sent His talmidim to 'all nations' (goyim) with the message of Torah observance.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

I'm pretty sure that all He taught was Torah. So my take away would be - if anyone's doctrine does not accurately reflect who Y'shua was (and is) and what He commanded, then they might just be deceiving themselves.

 

[Yahudim]

In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance- eg. a nominal modern Orthodox who is deeply involved in charity can be a good Jew whereas a Hasid who cheats on his taxes but never misses a minyan or a shiur may not be. From what I've studied in the scriptures, it does not seem to have ever been the case that Gentiles needed to keep all 613 laws - nor was it ever the case that those often denoucning Gentiles for not doing so come remotely close to keeping half of them.

Well this seems a little misleading.
"In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance" might or might not be accurate, but this certainly wasn't and isn't the case for Y'shua's disciples. Y'shua taught correct Torah observance. So how is this relevant?

BTW, no one is required to keep all 613. Might want to edit that statement. And, "those often denoucning Gentiles for not doing so"; who would that be? Did you have anyone special in mind?

The tone of your post suggest that Torah cannot be kept properly, so why try? Is this what you are trying to convey?

 

[Avodat]

Was that your take away? Really? 'Cause that's not what I read.

I think that what Mishkan is saying is that Messiah Y'shua of scripture is about as Orthodox and Torah observant a Jewish Rabbi as you will ever find and that He sent His talmidim to 'all nations' (goyim) with the message of Torah observance.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

I'm pretty sure that all He taught was Torah. So my take away would be - if anyone's doctrine does not accurately reflect who Y'shua was (and is) and what He commanded, then they might just be deceiving themselves.

Of course! That is all they had in those days!

 

[Lulav]

There are laws regarding unintentional, unknown sin which I'm sure you're well aware of so I won't go into them. Now, does ignorance equal rebellion?

In other words: Your 17 year old son has learned how important it is to set aside time each day to devote that little bit of extra study time for the subject that is not exactly on his "favorites" list so he can achieve not just a passing grade but a really good grade because you desire this of him and he loves you. Your little 6 year old doesn't have the maturity yet to understand the importance of good grades or what's required to achieve them even though he, too, loves you dearly. They have both heard all of their lives about being good students and studying hard. One has incorporated this into his life, one has not - but they both love you more than anything. Is it enough for right now? Do you love the one more? Or do you understand that because the little one does love you with his whole heart, he will learn as he grows because he wants his love for you to reflect in what he does in life?

excellent analogy!

I hope so. We are all ignorant of some things. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is lying to themselves. The question is not what do we know, it is what are we doing with what we know?

No question about it, that is what counts.

Did Yeshua not say that the one who did what deserves a beating, but didn't know, will receive few lashes. From him who has been given much, much will be demanded -- from someone to whom people entrust much, they ask still more.

 

[visionary]

Of course! That is all they had in those days!

That is all we have today too....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well this seems a little misleading.
"In Judaism, one can be a good Jew and not adopt the most obvious forms of observance" might or might not be accurate, but this certainly wasn't and isn't the case for Y'shua's disciples. Y'shua taught correct Torah observance.

His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.

And in observance, for anyone to honestly study it, one must also address the many ways Yeshua went counter to things that others expected. From his touching those who were unclean (rather than leaving them alone) and making them clean - to His associations with Jewish tax-collectors/'sinners' many felt were highly UnKosher and that being with one would make them such - and the same with a host of other things (more shared here in #62, #63 , #69 #551 #552 ).

who would that be? Did you have anyone special in mind?

Already shared before - some of that referenced in the thread/referenced for other occassions. Not going to share again if it cannot be looked up first.

tone of your post suggest that Torah cannot be kept properly, so why try? Is this what you are trying to convey?

Already clarified earlier as it was acknowledged by several - for it has never been said that Torah was not to be kept and it is simplistic to assume such when it is noted that not all aspects of it were ever applicable to all groups or that no one claiming to be more "observant" than others (and thus judging) has any right to do so since the scriptures note repeatedly we're not to judge/not one is perfect at any point.....and as said in the post, we're given explict commands not to judge our neighbors/where they're at in observance.

In the event that what I've said/taken time to share isn't clear enough, as one prominent Messianic Jewish synagouge (Congregation Shema Yisrael) :

• The covenant upon which much of the Torah is based is a broken covenant (there is no Temple and therefore no sacrifices by which we may draw near to God and obtain eternal life). It is impossible to keep all the laws of the Mosaic Covenant today. In addition, most Jews live outside of Israel, and many of the laws only apply to life within Israel.

• The laws that are part of the covenant mediated by Moses are still extremely valuable and relevant. The Torah continues to inform and guide the life of the Jewish people. It teaches us the right things to do and gives us a good way to live. It helps us live an authentic Jewish lifestyle. It helps us remain part of the Holy People. The issue of assimilation is a major problem for Messianic Jews. Historically, Messianic Jewish families that make no effort to live a Jewish lifestyle or to be involved in Jewish evangelism will almost always assimilate and lose their Jewish identity within a couple of generations. The issue of assimilation is something that is addressed in the New Testament. Rabbi Paul commands Messianic Jews to not become uncircumcised (1 Corinthians 7:18), which means not to seek assimilation into the prevailing Gentile culture, but to continue their Jewish way of life.

• The Torah is more than the Mosaic Covenant. All of the Word of God, including the New Covenant, is “Torah” (literally, “teaching” or “instruction&#8221.

• The early Messianic Jews had a favorable view of the Torah, and many were zealous to live in accordance with it (see Acts 21:20 26). History documents that Messianic Jews continued to live a distinctly Jewish, Torah based lifestyle for centuries after the arrival of Messiah Yeshua. There is no incompatibility with being “zealous for the Torah” and being a Messianic Jew.

Therefore: I am pro Torah, while recognizing that the Covenant made at Sinai is a broken covenant. I am pro-Torah, valuing the great wisdom that is found in the Torah. I am pro Torah, recognizing that all Believers are in some sense to fulfill the Law (Romans 8:4), but that not all of us are obligated to fulfill the same requirements of the Law (for example, Gentiles need not be circumcised). I am pro-Torah, recognizing that nobody (Jewish or otherwise) can be saved by the works of the Law. I am pro Torah, recognizing that Messiah’s teaching helps return us to the Torah’s original intent regarding issues such as a man being married to only one woman. I am pro-Torah, understanding that one of the main purposes of the Torah is to point us to Messiah. I am pro Torah, accepting the fact that Messianic Jews who choose not to keep every aspect of the Law, particularly the ceremonial laws, do not lose their salvation. My personal experience is that I have become more observant over time, but it was a process that took years. Therefore I encourage Messianic Jews to identify with and embrace their Jewish heritage, which in large part is based on the Torah; and I encourage Messianic Jews to be gracious to each other regarding others’ level of Torah observance.

As Messianic Jews work out their salvation with fear and trembling, we need to be gracious to each other in the area of practice. Those Messianic Jews who want to live a life that is more Torah-observant have the freedom to do so, but they can’t demand that others live the same way. Those Messianic Jews who want to keep the customs and traditions of our people are free to do so, provided those customs and traditions do not contradict the teaching of the Word of God. Many rabbinic customs and traditions are profound and a blessing to Jewish life.


​

Many of the 613 commandments do not apply to everyone, but Christ and John in Rev 22 specified the "Big Ten" - the "Ten Things" - the Ten Commandments - do apply to everyone. And ultimately, what the focus comes down to is love for one another as fulfilling all things. The Messianic Jewish Brothers/Sisters over at the Rosh Pina Project noted it best before in their series on Love and the Law. That said, again, I've noted this on a number of occassions since our first couple of convos we had ( #93 #138 , #182 and #183 ) - in agreement with others (such as Contra, SHimshon, Qnts2, etc.) - and you've already made plain repeatedly you disagree with it. Thus, there's nothing new to discuss as if there was any misunderstanding when questions come up since you have already made plain what you think. I'd rather not engage in pretense - as you are already aware of what you've said of myself and several others - and have been unwilling to either change or address those things which are falsehoods. I asked before for you not to contact me until you're able to actually repent on the issue/deal accurately with what others said ...but thus far, that has not happened.

no one is required to keep all 613.

Not according to God's law, T. Judaism has identified 613 commandments in the Torah or first five books of the Bible. They are called mitzvoth or good deeds. 365 of them, the number of days in the solar year, are prohibitive in nature. That is, they describe actions we are not to take. The other 248, the number of organs and limbs in a human body according to the Rabbis, are performative in nature. That is, they describe actions we are to take. These two numbers are interpreted to mean that man should be practicing these commands every day of the year. A good example of each type of commandment can be found in Lev 19:35 and 36. Lev 19 has many of the 613 commands in its verses

It was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “Do not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
​

 

[Yahudim]

His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.

I agree. Just as it is misleading to suggest that goyim (non-believers) remain goyim when they came to be believers - are not adopted into the covenant (Torah) of Israel. Or to suggest that because Torah isn't easy enough, then the parts that apply to them can be ignored or only kept in part.

Not according to God's law, T - as it was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.

Well this is misleading too. Did women keep command written for the Levitical priesthood? Did men have to keep commands intended for women? Were merchants commanded to keep the instructions to farmers? No. See for yourself:

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[visionary]

His disciples also taught Torah as it was to be interpreted. There is no getting around the bottom line fact that Yeshua championed a Samaritan as keeping the Spirit of Torah by helping their neighbors in need in contrast to the most observant people ever such as the Priest and Levite (Luke 10:25-39) - something the rabbis often noted of Him and Hillel as a matter of making God's commands universal in simplicity...and echoed by the Apostles repeatedly when noting love fulfills the Law. It is misleading to talk on Observance and avoid where Yeshua never did have a mindset of Gentiles keeping all things asked of the Hebrews - be it with the Samaritan, or the Samaritan Woman/her community when it came to Evangelism (John 4), or the Demonized man in Mark 5 ...the Roman Centurion who had greater faith than all in Israel and a host of others.

Not according to God's law, T - as it was a TOTAL covenant...where if one breaks one part of it, ALL are broken. There's no escaping that in scripture.

Find me someone on this earth who does it all both the girl and boy's part, and that of the levite's service work in the temple, etc.. What all people can do is that which God requires them to do... and in doing that it is a total committment to His Covenant.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just as it is misleading to suggest that goyim (non-believers) remain goyim when they came to be believers - are not adopted into the covenant (Torah) of Israel. Or to suggest that because Torah isn't easy enough, then the parts that apply to them can be ignored or only kept in part.

Gentiles never ceased being Gentiles - nor were they deemed Jews when they came to believers. That was repeatedly expressed in early Judaic thought - and goes to the issue of distinction which the apostles/early body of believers worked out. The hardest thing to do is to actually love someone - and that is why Yeshua often pointed it out and emphasized it when others tried to confront Him on what the GREATEST of commandments were. The same goes for the issue of noting where God - in multiple versions of what Torah was for people (from the time of Adam to the time of Noah to the time of Moses and Post-Moses since it didn't end there) - had the right to say what He did or didn't wish of others. He always had it in His plan to sanctify believers by faith (as Abraham was justified before circumcision - Romans 4) - and His Spirit was what made the difference...given to all believers.

The person in India rescuing girls caught in human trafficking/child brides is far more observant than someone claiming Observance due to keeping what they deem to be kosher - and yet not loving others as the scriptures repeatedly commanded - and the Lord warned on that on several occassions

Well this is misleading too


Did women keep command written for the Levitical priesthood? Did men have to keep commands intended for women? Were merchants commanded to keep the instructions to farmers? No. See for yourself

Only "misleading" when one intentionally divorces what was said from the context. For it was already made plain earlier and in multiple discussions for years where not all laws were made for other people....and yet anyone claiming "I keep ALL the Law more than others'" lies to themselves.


Again, context. That said, as said before, I've already covered thus before with you since the first couple of convos we had ( #93 #138 , #182 and #183 ) - and Contra and others already corrected that argument years ago since it's not what anyone advocats for those paying attention - and thus, one can drop that as if it is not noticeable. Mainstream Messianic Judaism has long discussed the reality of sub-laws for differing groups under the umbrella of the Law/Torah and the ways that following God means following what He asked of others in specific eras. This is what Hiliel taught when it came to the Gentiles being noted as saved/sanctified specifically by living out what the Lord gave to Noah - as they were never given overall what was given to the Hebrews in the Mosaic.

Find me someone on this earth who does it all both the girl and boy's part, and that of the levite's service work in the temple, etc.. What all people can do is that which God requires them to do... .

and in doing that it is a total committment to His Covenant

And what He required - based EXPLICLTY on what Yeshua noted and the apostles - is to love one another. That is what He gave us, in agreement with what the Lord was seeking to bring into focus many times with His Covenant. And His covenant is with other elements now that we have HIS Spirit.

1 John 3:13-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
1 John 4
​

1 John 3
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Love One Another

11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
​

Also, as Messianic Jew Asher Intrater said best - as seen in Revive Israel: Torah and New Covenant

The rabbi asked a question about how to receive eternal life. Yeshua did not tell the rabbi to believe that He (Yeshua) was the Messiah. Rather, He asked him to explain what was written in the Law. It was the rabbi who gave the answer. (His answer is similar to the position credited to the school of Rabbi Hillel of the first century.)

Luke 10:27 - The teacher of the Law replied, "And you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and all your mind, and you will love your neighbor as yourself."

Yeshua affirmed that the rabbi answered correctly as to the meaning of the Torah, and that the dual "love" commandment would lead to eternal life. Ah, but then comes the application. It's easy to see the Pharisees of Yeshua's day as hypocrites. But the same problems face us. Yeshua wasn't just talking about them; He was talking about us.

These two basic laws - loving God and loving our neighbor, are so simple. How is it that we so easily mess it up? Yeshua gives two examples: one mistake about loving God and one mistake about loving our neighbor. The examples apply to everyone; and particularly to people serving in "ministry", especially ministry "leaders".

The first example - the Good Samaritan, shows how a leader in ministry can miss the principle of loving his neighbor. The ministry leaders (priest and Levite) are so focused on their ministry and the importance of their priestly calling, that for the sake of their "service to God," they can't waste time and effort to help this "low priority" person who is hurting and in need.

The second example - that of Martha, shows how a person with much ministry responsibility can miss the principle of loving God. Martha is one of Yeshua's closest disciples, and one of the most responsible and hard-working. She became so involved in her responsibilities that she missed the opportunity to love the Lord. She also became offended at her sister. Her serving replaced her loving (Revelation 2:4).

Let's learn from Martha and the Samaritan so that we can keep loving God and loving our neighbor as our first priorities.
​

If one isn't committed to doing love for neighbors, they're really not commited to doing things in the interpretation of Covenant that Yeshua required. It is what it is.


Apostle John was very direct on it and spoke in no uncertain terms

John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
John 13:33-36 /John 13

John 15:8-18 /John 15
This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.


Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day Is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:7-9/Romans 13
​

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:5-7

James 2:8 Lev
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right.9
​

 

[Yahudim]

In Torah, goyim are ALWAYS non-believers, gerim are proselytes (converts if you like) but the adopted are Israel. Show me scripture that demonstrates this is wrong.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In Torah, goyim are ALWAYS non-believers, gerim are proselytes (converts if you like).

Incorrect - and that has been noted by several repeatedly. You are are Gentile whether you like it or not

but the adopted are Israel.

Yep - and that was covered in several discussions in-depth.

Show me scripture that demonstrates this is wrong

One can deal with what was already given rather than asking for more while avoiding what's given. Until then, there is no discussion since you have already been told on the matter and simply don't like what you get (Proverbs 14:6). No one really cares to deal with that - and as said before, this was already addressed on a couple of occassions...the most recent being discussion on the Body of Israel/Church as well as other discussions ( here, #31 , #44, #69 , #71 , #70 #84 , #117 , #130 , #142 ,#144 , #252 , etc. ).

 

[visionary]

Gentiles never ceased being Gentiles - nor were they deemed Jews when they came to believers. That was repeatedly expressed in early Judaic thought - and goes to the issue of distinction which the apostles/early body of believers worked out. The hardest thing to do is to actually love someone - and that is why Yeshua often pointed it out and emphasized it when others tried to confront Him on what the GREATEST of commandments were. The same goes for the issue of noting where God - in multiple versions of what Torah was for people (from the time of Adam to the time of Noah to the time of Moses and Post-Moses since it didn't end there) - had the right to say what He did or didn't wish of others. He always had it in His plan to sanctify believers by faith (as Abraham was justified before circumcision - Romans 4) - and His Spirit was what made the difference...given to all believers.

The person in India rescuing girls caught in human trafficking/child brides is far more observant than someone claiming Observance due to keeping what they deem to be kosher - and yet not loving others as the scriptures repeatedly commanded - and the Lord warned on that on several occassions

of course... the person who is doing the loving part of neighbors is doing right... but that still does not dismiss this same person from hearing the word and being obedient too it. If this same person who does a great work rescuing girls, but turns a deaf ear to obedience to God commands when he is presented with it, might make it into the kingdom, not because of these righteous deeds but because of the loving motive in his heart.. but alas will still be classified "least" in the kingdom.. for not observing the weightier matters of the law that were brought to his attention. God can wink at the parts of this person's life when he didn't know. But when it came to his attention of what God required of him, and he rebelled against His Kingdom's Laws.. he will face the consequences of those actions... in spite of his good deeds with the rescue work.