DO We Have Free Will?

[narnia59]

Oops, I should have named it, "Is it God's Will for me to sin"
I had a conversation on another board where folks were certain
that God DOES will us to sin sometimes in order to bring
about His Will.

God's will has two aspects -- his active will, i.e. that which he 'causes', and his permitted will, i.e. -- that which he allows.

So, for example:
The creation of the world -- God's active will
The fall of man -- God's permitted will
The Incarnation -- God's active will
The crucifixion -- God's permitted will
The Resurrection -- God's active will

It is never God's active will that we sin. That would be contrary to His nature.

It is God's permitted will that he allows us to sin if we so choose (our free will). He does this in order to bring forth an even greater good. That is a mystery.

 

[Rick Otto]

Maybe it's part of our identifyng with our body & thinking instead of realizing those are not us, but our responsibilities to "tend" like Adam did The Garden?
That's how we become subject to stray thoughts & incessant instincts.

Thanks for stoppin' in, squint.

 

[Rick Otto]

God's will has two aspects -- his active will, i.e. that which he 'causes', and his permitted will, i.e. -- that which he allows.

So, for example:
The creation of the world -- God's active will
The fall of man -- God's permitted will
The Incarnation -- God's active will
The crucifixion -- God's permitted will
The Resurrection -- God's active will

It is never God's active will that we sin. That would be contrary to His nature.

It is God's permitted will that he allows us to sin if we so choose (our free will). He does this in order to bring forth an even greater good. That is a mystery.

I think you've explained it well, except I don't see it as a mystery. I think Romans 9:22-23 pretty well explains His motivation in a little more detail than to simply say "God is good" & to say "All things work for the good of those that love Him."

 

[Rick Otto]

Personally it seems to me stupid that people are willing to believe some on born fifteen hundred, and nine years after Jesus, could come up with an understanding of Jesus’ teaching that differed from all those Christians that came before Calvin.

Sir, with all due respect, it seems equaly so not to see & expect God's timing in large scale for example, The time between Adam & Noah, Noah & Moses, Moses & Jesus,...

How can one believe that Jesus waited all those years to set his people on the right road?

Again, by looking at how long He kept them under the Egyptians, and then under Levitical Law, for example.

I believe one has to be looking for an easy way to be a Christian, a way that does not mean one has to totally give up the world, to believe what Calvin preached.

We all seem to project our own faults on others because we believe them not to be so different from ourselves.

People trying to figure out God, what nonsense that is, trying to figure out a God who created all things with a human mind that has trouble figuring out how to stop a virus.

Being ignorant is our natural state. Willfully remaining in that state won't be approved of.

 

[squint]

Hi Squint.
Great to see you as always

Thanks.

I agree that not every thought is our own.

Most may not 'perceive' this matter, but the operations of the tempter, scripturally speaking, is a fact and is internal in origination. To me this is rather basic to christian teaching. Christianity 'sources' that matter to an entity or entities that are not man, but who operate within man, that is, in mind.

If this is the case, which case is easily shown in the text, then mankind's will is not alone nor is the person.

Freewill in that structure is a basic impossibility.

Why this matter can not be grasped is another subject 'because' it does not involve just the person. The 'other party(s)' resist this information and reject same. That is what they were made to do. To resist Gods Truth and Ways.

And I believe that it's our responsibility to take captive
every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

There is certainly a reason for having to do that, but you might also understand that none of us 'change' what the other parties do. We are to 'reign' over that other working/worker continually. Most believers don't even perceive this matter.

Because we deserved it.

If you understand the fact of mankinds condition, then that fact has to be factored into all understandings inclusive of judgment.

For example, I might say that as Gods children you and I and any other believer is completely justified, but that would not be the case for the other workers would it?

Paul for example showed us openly his condition here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Now, we know that a messenger of Satan is EVIL do we not?

Here Paul points to this matter again:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is not hard to see that Paul in the above facts was not alone in the flesh and that evil was present with him. It doesn't take a genius to see that the messenger of Satan was both evil and not Paul.

Freewill is pretty lame when the facts are applied. Paul was saved. That devil within his flesh not.

It is quite pointless to see just Paul is it not???

And we have not even discussed Gods Own Will in anything yet. But we know that Christ, that is His Spirit, you know, that Spirit that speaks TRUTHFULLY can speak of these matters truthfully to us and within us.

It's much more interesting than what many are able to see or perceive.

enjoy!

s







Always enjoy your posts.
[/quote]

 

[Rick Otto]

I FEEL ya, bro! (lol)

 

[narnia59]

I think you've explained it well, except I don't see it as a mystery. I think Romans 9:22-23 pretty well explains His motivation in a little more detail than to simply say "God is good" & to say "All things work for the good of those that love Him."

Probably just a difference in terminology. I use the term 'mystery' because we rarely are aware of how God is working those things for the good (even our sin if when we repent). Sometimes we can look back and be amazed, but rarely are we aware during the present of how God's working -- we simply must trust that he is.

 

[Rick Otto]

Probably just a difference in terminology. I use the term 'mystery' because we rarely are aware of how God is working those things for the good (even our sin if when we repent). Sometimes we can look back and be amazed, but rarely are we aware during the present of how God's working -- we simply must trust that he is.

Good point.

 

[sunlover1]

Awesome posts.
Thanks for all of the answers.
Seems we're all agreed that God desires that we don't sin,
and in fact sent Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
And anyone born of God won't continue in sin..

1 John 5:18

 

[Nanopants]

DO We Have Free Will?

No! And please stop forcing me to say that.

 

[sunlover1]

No! And please stop forcing me to say that.

Surely you jest.

 

[Nanopants]

Surely you jest.

I do jest, and don't call me surely

 

[Rick Otto]

Frankly, he's sure, man.

 

[sunlover1]

I do jest, and don't call me surely

Oops, I meant Shirly, and forgive me.

Frankly, he's sure, man.

 

[seeking Christ]

Ok, so where's Earnest, and does he have free will? (Notice how again those two words have been assigned yet another distinct meaning?)

 

[Rick Otto]

Earnest is with Shurman & I think they both headed over the cliff.
Oh wait, that was last week. Earnest & Shurman are over at Cliff's.
What Will is doing over there has been caused, but he's still being held for questioning as there is some grounds for suspicion that he is an accessory after the fact. That may be good if it's about fashion. Fashionistas like to accessorize.

 

[simonthezealot]

The Christian Church up until Calvin never preached such nonsense. In fact the largest Christian Church has never taught anything nearly as wrong as what Calvin taught.

You speak nonsense, Augustine spoke often on dual truth and pre-destination, just like Paul!

 

[simonthezealot]

God's will has two aspects -- his active will, i.e. that which he 'causes', and his permitted will, i.e. -- that which he allows.

Me thinks ya missed a couple...
What about the secret will and expressed/revealed will?

Deuteronomy 29:29

New International Version (NIV)

29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

 

[Hawisher]

I was talking to Earnest Lee just the other day, and he said I may be Frank, but only if he can be Shirley.

 

[Giver]

You speak nonsense, Augustine spoke often on dual truth and pre-destination, just like Paul!

By the time Augustine got to share his errors the Church was so far off from the Word of God that very little was in order any more.

(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”