Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Existence and death don't go hand and hand. You can't exist and be dead simultaneously. Alas that will take us off topic so I digress.

Luke 16 disagrees with you

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham [NC] vs Moses [OC]

LUKE 16:22
"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

 

[Stryder06]

Luke 16 disagrees with you

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham vs Moses

Luke 16 is a parable.

If Hell is a place where people will be weeping and gnashing thier teeth, I doubt they'll have the presence of mind to articulate such a request as displayed here. I also doubt water to drink would do him any good or bring him any comfort while his flesh was on fire.

 

[fhansen]

Existence and death don't go hand and hand. You can't exist and be dead simultaneously. Alas that will take us off topic so I digress.

The church has long held that existence, for men and angels, is eternal from the point of their creation, because existence is an undeniable good, an act of God for us according to His perfect wisdom, and as such nothing He's ever intended to undo. The question is, how will we exist, with or without God? Theologians have called the initial separation of God and man at the Fall, resulting from man's disobedience, spiritual death, or death of the soul. That's the condition we're born into in this world, and the reason we need to be "born again", or "born from above". Otherwise we stay dead.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke 16 is a parable.

If Hell is a place where people will be weeping and gnashing thier teeth, I doubt they'll have the presence of mind to articulate such a request as displayed here. I also doubt water to drink would do him any good or bring him any comfort while his flesh was on fire.

Unlike other parables of Jesus, it also shows actual names: Moses, Abraham and Lazarus

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306.../#post49298833
Rich-man and Lazarus- True story or Parable

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:30
"And he said, "No, father Abraham!
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rise from the dead.' "

Yeshua uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead.
The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.

.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Luke 16 is a parable.

True enough, but Christ is not in the habbit of using false things to teach a truth.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Tiredknight]

Luke 16 is a parable.

If Hell is a place where people will be weeping and gnashing thier teeth, I doubt they'll have the presence of mind to articulate such a request as displayed here. I also doubt water to drink would do him any good or bring him any comfort while his flesh was on fire.

I do not see any biblical evidence that it is a parable.

Jesus had an MO when it came to parables. He talked and gave the parable, people were confused every single time(so this is not one of the ones that they just got, because no one got them) And then he explains it, even the ones they somewhat got.

This is not a parable. It does not follow his MO for parables.

 

[Stryder06]

The church has long held that existence, for men and angels, is eternal from the point of their creation, because existence is an undeniable good, an act of God for us according to His perfect wisdom, and as such nothing He's ever intended to undo. The question is, how will we exist, with or without God? Theologians have called the initial separation of God and man at the Fall, resulting from man's disobedience, spiritual death, or death of the soul. That's the condition we're born into in this world, and the reason we need to be "born again", or "born from above". Otherwise we stay dead.

I see. I disagree, but I see.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Unlike other parables of Jesus, it also shows actual names: Moses, Abraham and Lazarus

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306.../#post49298833
Rich-man and Lazarus- True story or Parable

LUKE 16:30
"And he said, "No, father Abraham! but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rise from the dead.'

Yeshua uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead.
The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.
.

Originally Posted by Stryder06 Luke 16 is a parable.

True enough, but Christ is not in the habbit of using false things to teach a truth.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Luke and John are the only 2 places in the NT where Lazarus is mentioned.

I would think that John 12 aptly identifies who is symbolizing the "rich man":

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Jhn 12:10
But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also,
17 Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

 

[Stryder06]

I do not see any biblical evidence that it is a parable.

Jesus had an MO when it came to parables. He talked and gave the parable, people were confused every single time(so this is not one of the ones that they just got, because no one got them) And then he explains it, even the ones they somewhat got.

This is not a parable. It does not follow his MO for parables.

Thank you for your response. However this thread isn't about that. Let's all try to stay on topic.

 

[Stryder06]

True enough, but Christ is not in the habbit of using false things to teach a truth.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

An example is just that, an example. The truth that was being taught was that if you won't believe the word of God, you won't believe anything.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA True enough, but Christ is not in the habbit of using false things to teach a truth.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I do not see any biblical evidence that it is a parable.

Jesus had an MO when it came to parables. He talked and gave the parable, people were confused every single time(so this is not one of the ones that they just got, because no one got them) And then he explains it, even the ones they somewhat got.

This is not a parable. It does not follow his MO for parables.

An example is just that, an example.
The truth that was being taught was that if you won't believe the word of God, you won't believe anything.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion.
First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life.
Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself.

If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04zwhjRiCbo




.

 

[Hentenza]

I am. I'm wondering if the debt is believed to be something else besides what's stated in Rom 6:23

Death is not a debt but a result. Physical death is a result of sin entering the world through one man. Spiritual death is the result of rejecting the grace of God. Rom. 6:23 is not talking about a debt but of a result.

So how do you know this is the Father? For example, the bible says that Christ created all things, and in Genesis it says that all things were created by "The Lord God". If we link those two together, then we would be correct to say that "The Lord God" spoken of in Genesis is Christ. Do you agree?

The bible is explicit that the one talking in Genesis 3 is God the Father. Jesus is not YAHWEH and YAHWEH is not Jesus. There is no wiggle room to claim otherwise.

 

[Tiredknight]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion.
First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life.
Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself.

If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?




.

I think he was accused though... It slightly subtle but I believe it is there.

In luke 16 the story says the man Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate because he was hoping to get crumbs to feed himself. It says the beggar died with basically only dogs tending to him, which probably hurt.

It is obvious the rich man did nothing about it. He neglected Lazarus so much that dogs where the only comfort to Lazarus. This rich man's sin, as with most rich people, is pride and greed. He ignored the needs of someone less fortunate then himself and did not love Lazarus.


I personally would say, those dogs have more right to be in heaven then the rich man.


IF this is a parable, it is a parable on about the pharisees not needing help and being damned, by Jesus, indicated by him calling them white washed tombs and their throat is an open grave... and the sinner needing Jesus's salvation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think he was accused though... It slightly subtle but I believe it is there.

IF this is a parable, it is a parable on about the pharisees not needing help and being damned, by Jesus, indicated by him calling them white washed tombs and their throat is an open grave... and the sinner needing Jesus's salvation.

So as not to derail the thread on this, could you post your responses to Luke 16 on this other thread?
[I took the liberty of transferring a few posts from here to there]
This parable is my largest study in the NT btw.
Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890/
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable




.

 

[Hentenza]

An example is just that, an example. The truth that was being taught was that if you won't believe the word of God, you won't believe anything.

Then, by necessity, you must believe in the word of God. If Jesus is using the final destination of the wicked to prove a point then the final destination of the wicked is a place not an invented destination.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Then, by necessity, you must believe in the word of God. If Jesus is using the final destination of the wicked to prove a point then the final destination of the wicked is a place not an invented destination.

Hey how about that! I love it when we agree.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Stryder06]

Death is not a debt but a result. Physical death is a result of sin entering the world through one man. Spiritual death is the result of rejecting the grace of God. Rom. 6:23 is not talking about a debt but of a result.

If death isn't the debt, then what is?

The bible is explicit that the one talking in Genesis 3 is God the Father. Jesus is not YAHWEH and YAHWEH is not Jesus. There is no wiggle room to claim otherwise.

Where does the bible explicity say that it is the Father talking? Again, the OT makes no distinguishment. It simply says "The Lord God". Now when we look at what the new testament says, we know that Jesus is the One who created all things, and the Creator in Genesis is "The Lord God".

 

[Stryder06]

Then, by necessity, you must believe in the word of God. If Jesus is using the final destination of the wicked to prove a point then the final destination of the wicked is a place not an invented destination.

Again, this thread isn't about whether or not the parable is literal.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Again, this thread isn't about whether or not the parable is literal.

Perhaps. But it is relevant to the subject.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Hentenza]

If death isn't the debt, then what is?

Sin.

Where does the bible explicity say that it is the Father talking? Again, the OT makes no distinguishment. It simply says "The Lord God". Now when we look at what the new testament says, we know that Jesus is the One who created all things, and the Creator in Genesis is "The Lord God".

Again, Jesus is not YAHWEH and YAHWEH is not Jesus. The bible EXPLICITLY states YAHWEH. If you believe otherwise then you are not believing the word of God.