Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[Stryder06]

Who do you know that does not agree with the scriptures that 'the wages of sin is death?' The question is whether they mean death of the body or death of the soul. Your thread objective reflects the SDA state of the dead doctrine. It reject what Jesus taught about seperation of body and soul and the reality of hell. Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It really asks a simple question Crib. It's well known what I believe as an Adventist in regards to the state of the dead so there's no need to try to "expose" me there buddy.

The question is simple. If the debt that has to be paid by the wicked is eternal life in hell, how did Christ pay that debt?

 

[Stryder06]

Ok well then show your claim with scripture back up...

I already did. I quoted it to Ortho

 

[98cwitr]

Sam topic: http://www.christianforums.com/t7708863/

 

[Stryder06]

Sam topic: http://www.christianforums.com/t7708863/

The topic would seem to be different since I'm asking what debt was paid by Christ in behalf of the sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That is an interesting question. I say none of them and only 1 of them...all at the same time.

I believe that Jesus did not have a physical body till he was born of Mary.

IF I was to make a choice I would say that God the Father walked them out Physically. Because the bible does say that God the father would walk and talk with adam in the cool of the day. Does that mean that the per-incarnate Christ was never there, no but the bible just doesn't say.

So you would agree that the Trinity has always been together? And that 'somebody' (maybe even all three) walked in the garden and expelled Adam and Eve?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Tiredknight]

The Father Created all things through Christ (John 1:3, Col 1:16). And I do believe their exile was a joint agreement?

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If this is what your referring to... it says God drove them out not Jesus.

 

[Hentenza]

So you would agree that the Trinity has always been together? And that 'somebody' (maybe even all three) walked in the garden and expelled Adam and Eve?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

All were there.

 

[Tiredknight]

So you would agree that the Trinity has always been together? And that 'somebody' (maybe even all three) walked in the garden and expelled Adam and Eve?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Yes, but not all three. The bible says in genesis 3:23 that the Lord God drove them out. Jews always refer to God the father with the "LORD God". This is the whole Yahweh, eloheim, tetragramaton thing. It refers to God, not Jesus or the holy spirit.

Moses being a jew and the man that wrote genesis, Would not call God by his name to refer to him, but the symbols Indicated in English by "LORD" so according to Moses, it was God himself. not Jesus or the Holy spirit. God then also set the cherubim to guard the entrance to the garden.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA So then... a debt was owed to who? God the Father? It was Christ that created them. It was Christ that made them leave.
.

Originally Posted by Stryder06 The Father Created all things through Christ (John 1:3, Col 1:16). And I do believe their exile was a joint agreement?

If this is what your referring to... it says God drove them out not Jesus.

uh oh....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7651548/
How is Jesus God?

Hello. I submit to you, the readers, that there is only one who is God in an unqualified sense, and that is the Father. However, in a particular sense Jesus is also God, but only inasmuch as he is the "image of God" (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15).

To explain, think of this... If I hold up a picture of myself and ask you "Who is this?" You could say, "That is you" And it is, but it is distinct from me. There are not two of me, etc. There is one of me, and the image of me is only me by expression.
Likewise, when we see Christ we see the Father. He is the image of the Father. In this way, Christ, being distinct in person, is the God whom he represents.

THEY CALL ME TRINITY TRAILER - YouTube

 

[98cwitr]

The topic would seem to be different since I'm asking what debt was paid by Christ in behalf of the sinner.

You should read the thread

 

[Hentenza]

Yes, but not all three. The bible says in genesis 3:23 that the Lord God drove them out. Jews always refer to God the father with the "LORD God". This is the whole Yahweh, eloheim, tetragramaton thing. It refers to God, not Jesus or the holy spirit.

Moses being a jew and the man that wrote genesis, Would not call God by his name to refer to him, but the symbols Indicated in English by "LORD" so according to Moses, it was God himself. not Jesus or the Holy spirit. God then also set the cherubim to guard the entrance to the garden.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us"

Only the Father spoke but all were there.

 

[bugkiller]

Never been a fan of this line of thinking. I don't even see any evidence in scripture that Adam was "spiritually dead". That term would seem to imply that the one who is spiritually dead would be lost.



Doesn't eternal suffering in hell negate the possibility of dying a second time?

It seems that you do not understand death.

bugkiller

 

[Stryder06]

IF I was to make a choice I would say that God the Father walked them out Physically. Because the bible does say that God the father would walk and talk with adam in the cool of the day. Does that mean that the per-incarnate Christ was never there, no but the bible just doesn't say.

Where does the bible specify that it was the Father?

 

[Stryder06]

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us"

Only the Father spoke but all were there.

How do you know it was the Father?

 

[Stryder06]

You should read the thread

Funny thing was that after I responded I was like "He probably wouldn't have mentioned it if what you're talking about here didn't come up in some form there."

 

[bugkiller]

I wasn't making a case with that statement. I was just trying to clarify that it wasn't the lamb that brought forgiveness, but the Lamb.

I couldn't agree more.

See this is where I have a bit of trouble following the logic. If the debt has been paid, then we need to understand what that debt is, because the sinner who rejects Christ is responsible for paying that debt.

So if one demands the observance of the law are they not rejecting grace (salvation) a free gift which can not be purchased?

bugkiller

 

[Hentenza]

The question is simple. If the debt that has to be paid by the wicked is eternal life in hell, how did Christ pay that debt?

And the answer is simple. Besides having to humble Himself, cooperating with His human nature, enduring the passion, and dying for your sins, at that time, when He gave up His spirit God forsook Him. Now, that is paying a debt.

 

[Hentenza]

How do you know it was the Father?

Because the bible says so.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Stryder06
The question is simple. If the debt that has to be paid by the wicked is eternal life in hell, how did Christ pay that debt?

And the answer is simple. Besides having to humble Himself, cooperating with His human nature, enduring the passion, and dying for your sins, at that time, when He gave up His spirit God forsook Him. Now, that is paying a debt.

Would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t4894702-7/#post32295850
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA

Mat 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many are confused as to why Christ said these words while hanging on the cross at the ninth hour (Friday 3PM).

Do you understand the meaning?

Forgive me...

 

[Yab Yum]

Quick thought: it occurs to me there is a difference between

1) living a life in perfect love and obedience toward the Father the result of which is the Father wiping clean the debt of humankind; and

2) paying a debt the result of which is the Father wiping clean the debt of humankind.