Commandments for Gentiles?

[Avodat]

These fora require an acceptance of Paul as an Apostle and acceptance of his writings as Scripture (see the SoP). As a self-declared anti-Pauline I fail to see how you can claim to be a full Member of this group. I am pleased, however, that you have resolved the problem of the word 'catholic' not being to do with the Catholic Church, and now accept the whole Nicene Creed - much of which comes from Paul's writings, as it happens.

This is the basis for my question regarding your a claims to be both a Gentile Christian [As a Gentile Christian, I want to please God with all of my heart] and a Messianic by virtue of your icon.

 

[ananda]

Nowhere in the SoP is it said that Messianics must follow Paul as an apostle, nor that we must regard his commentary to be on par with Torah- or Neviim-level Scripture.

 

[Mazock]

Well let me clear EVERYTHING up for you Avodet.

I have been a member of a Pentecostal Church for 42 years. Recently, I've come to the conclusion that we SHOULD observe Torah. As such, I'm struggling reconciling Paul's teachings. ADDITIONALLY, since becoming Torah Observant, I'm experiencing REAL difficulty with my wife, family, and friends. So, I've come to this forum to have fellowship with like minded Christians (followers of Yeshua).

What do I find?

Some Jerk, who attacks me for using the term "Gentile Christian" instead of Messianic Jew. I'm not Jewish, and as a Christian, I've ALWAYS been Messianic. However I have an aversion to BOTH descriptions, because "Christian" is considered Pauline, and Messianic implies Jewish. So I'm having difficulty even knowing WHAT to call myself.

So why would I wish to continue to visit this forum when there are JERKS like you who can't tolerate the word "Christian"? And have to dig through my previous posts to find that I'm anti-Pauline, just so he can use it to attack me again.

In my opinion, you SHOULD be banned from this site. Your hateful comments do NOTHING to advance Messianic Judaism, and in fact are driving new MJs away. You've contributed nothing to refute the actual content of my original post. In fact, I suspect you would agree with it (if it hadn't mentioned the term "Gentile Christian").

God forbid, a new MJ doesn't use your perception of the correct terminology.

This is just a personal attack for some unforeseen reason.

And when I attempt to clarify the "disingenuous" claim that I'm a Christian and Torah observant, instead of letting the issue drop, you continue your attack.

There was no deception. And none was intended. But you still attack my character.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Qnts2]

Nowhere in the SoP is it said that Messianics must follow Paul as an apostle, nor that we must regard his commentary to be on par with Torah- or Neviim-level Scripture.

From the SoP:

7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

 

[Qnts2]

Well let me clear EVERYTHING up for you Avodet.

I have been a member of a Pentecostal Church for 42 years. Recently, I've come to the conclusion that we SHOULD observe Torah. As such, I'm struggling reconciling Paul's teachings. ADDITIONALLY, since becoming Torah Observant, I'm experiencing REAL difficulty with my wife, family, and friends. So, I've come to this forum to have fellowship with like minded Christians (followers of Yeshua).

What do I find?

Some Jerk, who attacks me for using the term "Gentile Christian" instead of Messianic Jew. I'm not Jewish, and as a Christian, I've ALWAYS been Messianic. However I have an aversion to BOTH descriptions, because "Christian" is considered Pauline, and Messianic implies Jewish. So I'm having difficulty even knowing WHAT to call myself.

So why would I wish to continue to visit this forum when there are JERKS like you who can't tolerate the word "Christian"? And have to dig through my previous posts to find that I'm anti-Pauline, just so he can use it to attack me again.

In my opinion, you SHOULD be banned from this site. Your hateful comments do NOTHING to advance Messianic Judaism, and in fact are driving new MJs away. You've contributed nothing to refute the actual content of my original post. In fact, I suspect you would agree with it (if it hadn't mentioned the term "Gentile Christian").

God forbid, a new MJ doesn't use your perception of the correct terminology.

This is just a personal attack for some unforeseen reason.

And when I attempt to clarify the "disingenuous" claim that I'm a Christian and Torah observant, instead of letting the issue drop, you continue your attack.

There was no deception. And none was intended. But you still attack my character.

Thanks a lot!

Most Gentiles who worship with Messianic Judaism call themselves Messianic Gentiles.

As far as Messianic being Jewish, it is the preferred terminology for Jewish people.

Messiah comes from Hebrew Moshiach which means 'annointed' or Annointed One.

Christ comes from Greek Cristos which also means 'annointed'.

So Messiah and Christ mean the same thing. One transliterated from Hebrew and one transliterated from Greek.

Why do Messianic Jews prefer Messiah? Because Judaism teaches about the Messiah, and Christ in Judaism is viewed as a Gentile term. Christ as a word has also been used during anti-semitic persecutions by calling the Jews things like Christ-killers which usually does not end well for the Jewish people. So the term Christ has negative connotations while Messiah has positive connotation of hope.

 

[Lulav]

In the Mosaic law, different groups are specifically addressed when giving a command. The law includes specific commands for Gentiles who live among the Jewish people and/or Gentiles just travelling thru or in the land of Israel temporarily for business or pleasure. The standard terminology used is stranger (a Gentile who lives in the land of Israel) or an alien (one travelling thru).

The Mosaic law does not make mention of Gentiles outside of the land of Israel.

So, some laws are commands for the children of Israel, some for women of Israel, some for men of Israel, some for the Levites, and some laws apply to all children of Israel as well as strangers and aliens. When a specific command is for all people who are in the land, Jews and Gentiles, scripture often re-emphasizes that it is for everyone by saying the same law is for Jews and strangers (Gentiles).

The easiest law which can only be directed to the Jewish people is the law which forbids Jewish people to marry non-Jews. This is a law for the children of Israel only.

But another law which applies to all of the children of Israel, as well as the Gentiles who dwell in the land of Israel.

Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

I beg to differ, the law of consumption of blood goes all the way back to the allowance to eat meat, right after the flood. No one should eat blood that descends from Noah, Shem, Ham or Japheth. It has nothing to do with gentiles dwelling in the land of Israel. And it applies to Jews living outside the land as well.

No Blood
by any person
Any where on the planet
at any time

This goes against the ingrained prohibitions and Judaism's understanding of Chai.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

From the SoP:

7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

The mods noted that before in the thread about the Apostle Paul when the same was said - and it was addressed, as said in #182

 

[Qnts2]

I beg to differ, the law of consumption of blood goes all the way back to the allowance to eat meat, right after the flood. No one should eat blood that descends from Noah, Shem, Ham or Japheth. It has nothing to do with gentiles dwelling in the land of Israel. And it applies to Jews living outside the land as well.

No Blood
by any person
Any where on the planet
at any time

This goes against the ingrained prohibitions and Judaism's understanding of Chai.

I agree, but the example I used was very clear on the divisions of people addressed by the Mosaic law. As well as, even if it does go back to Noah, and I agree with that, it is re-iterated in the Mosaic laws, to Jews and non-Jews who dwell in the land. So, clearly the verse is referring to those two groups in the law which applies in the land of Israel.

As far as Judaisms understanding of life, that is not part of the discussion.

 

[mishkan]

Shalom, Mazock, and welcome aboard.

You're right. We have to learn to make room for the new and uninformed while still maintaining our own sense of identity. You happened to start posting here at a time when tempers are hot over some recent controversy.

I agree very much with Avodat's positions, but there have been a few times when his zeal caused him to be a bit more abrasive than I might like. This is one of those times.

Maybe you guys can reconcile in PM, and clear up some of the misunderstandings we have seen here in the public venue. I hope you will accept my apologies for the unnecessary umbrage, and settle in with us for some good discussion. I note that you have some very real concerns that I'm sure will benefit from discussion here.

We all have to start somewhere.

Be well...

Well let me clear EVERYTHING up for you Avodet.

I have been a member of a Pentecostal Church for 42 years. Recently, I've come to the conclusion that we SHOULD observe Torah. As such, I'm struggling reconciling Paul's teachings. ADDITIONALLY, since becoming Torah Observant, I'm experiencing REAL difficulty with my wife, family, and friends. So, I've come to this forum to have fellowship with like minded Christians (followers of Yeshua).
...
I'm not Jewish, and as a Christian, I've ALWAYS been Messianic. However I have an aversion to BOTH descriptions, because "Christian" is considered Pauline, and Messianic implies Jewish. So I'm having difficulty even knowing WHAT to call myself.

 

[Lulav]

I'm still here, lurking...enjoying checking in with you guys and reading posts. I am definitely growing and Adonai is showing me many things. It is absolutely stunning the depth of what He will show you when you are humble and seek His Face.

So, now, I'm curious. I've seen people in various places purpose that there are commandments specific for the Gentiles. Can any of you shed light on this for me? Thanks in advance.

I'm sorry to see that your question has gone off the tracks as most do when someone enquirers here about something.

Let me try to answer this for you with no agenda, nor affiliation.

The Gentiles that were coming to faith in the G-d of Israel were instructed to start with this laws.

Ones that pertain to

• Blood
• Immorality
• Idolotry

Now that seems simple enough but these were actually 'headings' of categories of laws.



For instance the laws regarding blood not only include ingesting it but also involve what is called niddah, family purity. For a man not to come into contact with a woman during her 'time of the month'. This involves the laws of being unclean because of death.

Blood should not be used for ritual heathen practices, including blood letting, or cutting oneself.



Immorality includes any deviant sexual act outside a man and woman not close related. These can be found in Leviticus 18, mainly.



Idolatry involves many things which do include eating food sacrificed to idols or other gods. They were told to stay away from this even though it is contradicted elsewhere. In Revelation you will read that Yeshua was not pleased with those leading his people away by telling them it was OK to eat foods sacrificed to idols.



Rev 2:14 and 2:20 it can be found.

 

[ananda]

From the SoP:

7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

#7 does not state that "Paul must be regarded as an apostle" nor does it state that "Romans to Philemon" are Torah- or Neviim-level Scripture. In fact, the SoP does not enjoin that Messianics must hold that every book in the Protestant?/Catholic?/Orthodox?/Eastern Orthodox? canon is equally inspired.

Are Job's friends' words equal to Torah- or Neviim- level Scripture? Or are they "words without knowledge" (Job 38:2)?

 

[macher]

I'm still here, lurking...enjoying checking in with you guys and reading posts. I am definitely growing and Adonai is showing me many things. It is absolutely stunning the depth of what He will show you when you are humble and seek His Face.

So, now, I'm curious. I've seen people in various places purpose that there are commandments specific for the Gentiles. Can any of you shed light on this for me? Thanks in advance.

This doesn't meant I advocate or am against it. It's shedding a light on your question.

Based on Acts 15 it's supposed that since non Jews don't need to be circumcised(The promise to Abraham being that all nations will be blessed), that non Jews aren't required to observe the commandments since there isn't a requirement to be circumcised.

It's also supposed that Gal 3:17-19 means the same. Such as if salvation means you have to become Jewish then the promise to Abraham that all nations will be blessed then there's no longer a promise that all nations will be blessed in Abraham.

Now the kicker here is do you have to be Jewish to observe the commands? The answer is no.

 

[yedida]

Avodat,

I understand that you MUST agree to the Nicene Creed to post on ANY of these forums. If you don't claim to be a Christian, you can't post on ANY of these forums.

Since you reject Christianity and only define yourself as Messianic, I'm under the understanding that you should be banned from this site entirely. Isn't that correct?

Welcome to the forum!
I would like to point out one thing that may be confusing, but there are a few concessions in this forum regarding the Nicene creed. So me exceptions - one being that many Messianic Jews and gentiles are non-trinitarian, we even have a non-trin Messianic icon. So we don't have to agree with it 100%....

 

[Avodat]

#7 does not state that "Paul must be regarded as an apostle" nor does it state that "Romans to Philemon" are Torah- or Neviim-level Scripture. In fact, the SoP does not enjoin that Messianics must hold that every book in the Protestant?/Catholic?/Orthodox?/Eastern Orthodox? canon is equally inspired.

Are Job's friends' words equal to Torah- or Neviim- level Scripture? Or are they "words without knowledge" (Job 38:2)?

Did you, perhaps, read a bit further re Paul as an Apostle? This is what it says, in part, in the text below #7:

*We believe the Torah (The Law) is holy, just, and good as the apostle Sha'ul (Paul) has stated (Romans 7:12). The Torah is profitable for instruction in righteousness (2Timothy 3:16), not as a means of justification or salvation, but as a path of sanctification. (my emphasis).

that seems pretty much conclusive as to what value CF give to Paul.

The text you did quote from #7 gives no room for debate as to what is, or is not, to be classed as inspired scripture. Therefore we must take the whole of The Book as the inspired word of G_d as far as CF is concerned.

 

[visionary]

This doesn't meant I advocate or am against it. It's shedding a light on your question.

Based on Acts 15 it's supposed that since non Jews don't need to be circumcised(The promise to Abraham being that all nations will be blessed), that non Jews aren't required to observe the commandments since there isn't a requirement to be circumcised.

It's also supposed that Gal 3:17-19 means the same. Such as if salvation means you have to become Jewish then the promise to Abraham that all nations will be blessed then there's no longer a promise that all nations will be blessed in Abraham.

Now the kicker here is do you have to be Jewish to observe the commands? The answer is no.

I believe Yeshua addressed that with..

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, ........., hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Let us never stop anyone from being obedient to the Word of God convictions of any believer. ... let us open up the gates of Torah so that all who strive to enter are not greeted by gatekeepers who say that the nations are not to be obedient to His Torah... Let them enter into His Kingdom...

 

[macher]

I believe Yeshua addressed that with..Let us never stop anyone from being obedient to the Word of God convictions of any believer. ... let us open up the gates of Torah so that all who strive to enter are not greeted by gatekeepers who say that the nations are not to be obedient to His Torah... Let them enter into His Kingdom...

You took the Matthew passage out of context. You're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[WOFFED]

HEY AVODAT!

Thanks for making me welcome on the forum. How about you go jump off a cliff.

1. Being new here, I have no idea what you're talking about.. Me being disingenuous. I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

2. I define "Christian" as someone who follows Christ aka Yeshua. I define Messianic as someone who follows Yeshua and is Torah Observant (with an interest in worshipping God from the Hebrew perspective). Why are these two viewpoints incongruous?

3. I don't understand what you mean by "claiming to be both Christian and Messianic". I only have one icon indicating that I believe I'm Messianic. Where do you see that I'm indicating both.

Thanks for the hateful post, feel free to report me at any time. Your "intolerance" is a great method of witnessing. I wonder just how many people you've lead to the Lord with that attitude?

Maz

Well let me clear EVERYTHING up for you Avodet.

I have been a member of a Pentecostal Church for 42 years. Recently, I've come to the conclusion that we SHOULD observe Torah. As such, I'm struggling reconciling Paul's teachings. ADDITIONALLY, since becoming Torah Observant, I'm experiencing REAL difficulty with my wife, family, and friends. So, I've come to this forum to have fellowship with like minded Christians (followers of Yeshua).

What do I find?

Some Jerk, who attacks me for using the term "Gentile Christian" instead of Messianic Jew. I'm not Jewish, and as a Christian, I've ALWAYS been Messianic. However I have an aversion to BOTH descriptions, because "Christian" is considered Pauline, and Messianic implies Jewish. So I'm having difficulty even knowing WHAT to call myself.

So why would I wish to continue to visit this forum when there are JERKS like you who can't tolerate the word "Christian"? And have to dig through my previous posts to find that I'm anti-Pauline, just so he can use it to attack me again.

In my opinion, you SHOULD be banned from this site. Your hateful comments do NOTHING to advance Messianic Judaism, and in fact are driving new MJs away. You've contributed nothing to refute the actual content of my original post. In fact, I suspect you would agree with it (if it hadn't mentioned the term "Gentile Christian").

God forbid, a new MJ doesn't use your perception of the correct terminology.

This is just a personal attack for some unforeseen reason.

And when I attempt to clarify the "disingenuous" claim that I'm a Christian and Torah observant, instead of letting the issue drop, you continue your attack.

There was no deception. And none was intended. But you still attack my character.
Thanks a lot!

There's as much or more outspoken dissension on this CF forum - wouldn't pin a badge on either disputing party.

Whether true or not one gets the impression that the zeal some members have for the Torah is greater than the zeal they have for the first five books of the New Testament and vica versa. This kind of disputing and dissension existed in the early Church between Jewish and Gentile converts of Christianity. However, thanks to Yeshua’s resurrection power His Spirit of brotherly and sisterly Love prevailed, otherwise Christianity would be a distant memory from a long ago bygone era.

So, the New Years challenge for Messianic Gentiles and Messianic Jews is to reply in love when seemingly offended.

Deuteronomy 10:19
And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
Proverbs 17:9
Love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends.

Romans 12:10
Love each other devotedly and with brotherly love; and set examples for each other in showing respect.
Colossians 3:14
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There's as much or more outspoken dissension on this CF forum - wouldn't pin a badge on either disputing party.

Whether true or not one gets the impression that the zeal some members have for the Torah is greater than the zeal they have for the first five books of the New Testament and vica versa. This kind of disputing and dissension existed in the early Church between Jewish and Gentile converts of Christianity. However, thanks to Yeshua’s resurrection power His Spirit of brotherly and sisterly Love prevailed, otherwise Christianity would be a distant memory from a long ago bygone era.

So, the New Years challenge for Messianic Gentiles and Messianic Jews is to reply in love when seemingly offended.

Deuteronomy 10:19
And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
Proverbs 17:9
Love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends.

Romans 12:10
Love each other devotedly and with brotherly love; and set examples for each other in showing respect.
Colossians 3:14
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Very true and thanks for bringing up the scriptures that you did - as it is interesting how often there can be discussion on Torah and yet no action based on what others said who loved God's scriptures and Law - noting as they did about what it means to truly live out what He expects in loving one another. And that's always the more difficult path to take.

 

[visionary]

You took the Matthew passage out of context. You're putting the cart before the horse.

Not really... Anyone is still "them that are entering to go in" anyone, anytime, anywhere...

 

[Avodat]

Again, although Paul is referred to as an "apostle" here, it does not 1. comment on his status as a true or false apostle, and 2. does not state that "all Messianics must believe that he is a true apostle." Remember, there are false apostles (Rev 2:2).

Which Book? The Ethiopian Orthodox Bible?

This debate about Paul being a false prophet has been discussed on here very thoroughly. I am surprised you are not aware of it. The two texts quoted, taken together, in context, make the CF view very clear. I doubt that CF would write what they wrote if they intended to say that one mustn't trust him or his word or if they intended any doubt to exist in what they wrote. It is also the generally accepted view within the MJ fora and so may not be countered by anyone. With respect, your comments are a bit of a nonsense response, as I am sure you must see, with hind-sight.

I didn't say that all Messianics MUST do anything.

Which book? The Book

Perhaps you should take up these issues with Customer Services or with a Moderator?