NT or OT?

[yonah_mishael]

The 'OT' and NT are all one book with the same author, God.

I remember when I believed that and thought that I understood the Bible. Each author of the Bible must be allowed to speak with his own voice. The perspective that you’ve just stated does not lead to a healthy understanding of the biblical text.

 

[Qnts2]

I remember when I believed that and thought that I understood the Bible. Each author of the Bible must be allowed to speak with his own voice. The perspective that you’ve just stated does not lead to a healthy understanding of the biblical text.

Of course I will disagree with you, but I would like to hear more of your perspective.

To start, I am guessing that what you mean is the each authors personality and experiences effect the way they write. I would agree with that. But, I believe all of scripture is inspired by God, so even though the personality of each writer is expressed, the inspiration of what the wrote is from God.

Overall, there is too much consistency throughout the scriptures, a developing revelation of God and His plan to dismiss that the scriptures are a communication from God thru people to all mankind.

 

[Avodat]

I remember when I believed that and thought that I understood the Bible. Each author of the Bible must be allowed to speak with his own voice. The perspective that you’ve just stated does not lead to a healthy understanding of the biblical text.

One author, many writers, is how best to explain it, I think.

 

[yonah_mishael]

One author, many writers, is how best to explain it, I think.

This sounds like a Trinitarian argument ("person" verses "being")! Surely you know that "writer" and "author" is the very same thing!

 

[yonah_mishael]

Perhaps you meant one author (which is the same as "writer") and many scribes. Is that what you meant?

 

[ananda]

Speaking only for myself here...I look to Torah *Genesis through Deuteronomy* as the words from YHWH's mouth given to Moses, a great prophet.

... and to that, the Neviim are, to me, YHWH's Words given through other prophets, verified through authenticated prophecy.

All the rest of the books (Biblical, Apocryphal, Pseudepigraphical, Talmud, any and all other spiritual reference books) should be held to the standard of Torah, studied, if one wishes, and compared and cross-referenced, etc. Study from historical, geographical, political, archaeological, linguistic (etc.) standpoints, because studying the "where" and "who's who" is helpful.

I agree, all material subsequent must agree with the Torah and Neviim (cf Isa 8:20).

 

[Avodat]

This sounds like a Trinitarian argument ("person" verses "being")! Surely you know that "writer" and "author" is the very same thing!

The author (in this case Yeshua) inspired man to put pen to paper and write the words we now have. The author is, therefore, in this particular situation, not the actual writer who put pen to paper.

 

[yonah_mishael]

The author (in this case Yeshua) inspired man to put pen to paper and write the words we now have. The author is, therefore, in this particular situation, not the actual writer who put pen to paper.

So, let's say that Paul wanted to write a letter. We are aware that he had bad eyes and couldn't write very clearly. Rather than sitting down at a table and writing out the letter, he held the ideas in his mind and formulated them into arguments. Then, he employed someone else (a professional scribe or a companion of his missionary work) who wrote down his words as he said them. In this instance, Paul was the author even though he didn't write the words himself. The person who wrote the letter would be called a "scribe" or a "stenographer," but he would not be called the "writer." Do you see the distinction?

It seems that you're saying that the ideas and expressions are those of God, but the people who put them into writing are the prophets, etc., making them the scribes or stenographers of God's expression.

Is this what you're saying?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Stenographer - from στενός (stenos, "narrow") and γραφή (graphe, "writing"). It's a person who writes small and quick in order to transcribe what another person says. Today, we have transcriptionists and transcribers.

 

[Avodat]

So, let's say that Paul wanted to write a letter. We are aware that he had bad eyes and couldn't write very clearly. Rather than sitting down at a table and writing out the letter, he held the ideas in his mind and formulated them into arguments. Then, he employed someone else (a professional scribe or a companion of his missionary work) who wrote down his words as he said them. In this instance, Paul was the author even though he didn't write the words himself. The person who wrote the letter would be called a "scribe" or a "stenographer," but he would not be called the "writer." Do you see the distinction?

It seems that you're saying that the ideas and expressions are those of God, but the people who put them into writing are the prophets, etc., making them the scribes or stenographers of God's expression.

Is this what you're saying?

It is not often a good idea to compare what G_d does with how human beings work - it fails in this case. Paul, the thinker, employed people to write the words as he spoke them - the job of a scribe. The people wrote what G_d inspired them to understand as being from him, with the exception of Moses to whom he spoke face to face; the words were not dictated to humans in the same way Paul dictated them to a hired scribe. A scribe responds only to words heard externally.

 

[yonah_mishael]

It is not often a good idea to compare what G_d does with how human beings work - it fails in this case. Paul, the thinker, employed people to write the words as he spoke them - the job of a scribe. The people wrote what G_d inspired them to understand as being from him, with the exception of Moses to whom he spoke face to face; the words were not dictated to humans in the same way Paul dictated them to a hired scribe. A scribe responds only to words heard externally.

Hevanti. I disagree with the idea, of course, but at least now I know what you're talking about.

 

[yedida]

Hevanti. I disagree with the idea, of course, but at least now I know what you're talking about.

(let the rest of the world figure this out, hehehe)

 

[WOFFED]

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; *whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15 (NASB)

The unblemished Lamb of G-D was inspected by both Herod and Pontus Pilot. Even Pilot washed his hands of the matter having tried to dissuade the Pharisees. Yet, He was slain on Passover (Yom Revi'I, Wednesday) and resurrected on Shabbat (Saturday). Sunday also known as the eighth day would truly become the beginning of a new covenant that built upon the previous covenant . "But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises." Hebrews 8:6 (CJB)

"When Shabbat was over, Miryam of Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya`akov, and Shlomit bought spices in order to go and anoint Yeshua. Suddenly there was a violent earthquake, for an angel of ADONAI came down from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat on it." Matthew 28:1-2 (CJB)

Yom Rishon (8th day) is a day of new beginnings. PURIM (Adar 14) occured on Yom Rishon. Moses was born on the 7th of Adar of the year 2368 from creation (1393 BCE); accordingly on Adar 14 he was circumcised in accordance with the Divine command to Abraham. Likewise, “On the eighth day, when it was time for his b'rit-milah, he was given the name Yeshua, which is what the angel had called him before his conception.” (Luke 2:21). So, it's my understanding that circumcision was performed on the 8th day, not as some translations say when the child was eight days old.

Psalm 119:176 (Complete Jewish Bible)
I strayed like a lost sheep; seek out your servant; for I do not forget your mitzvot.

Isaiah 53:6 (CJB)
We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet ADONAI laid on him the guilt of all of us. Or: and in fellowship with him.

Jeremiah 50:6 (CJB)
My people have been lost sheep. My shepherds made them go astray, turning them loose in the mountains. As they wandered from mountain to hill, they lost track of where their home is.

Ezekiel 34:8-12 (CJB)
8 "As I live," Adonai ELOHIM swears, "because my sheep have become prey, my sheep have become food for every wild animal, since there was no shepherd, since my shepherds didn't look for my sheep, and instead my shepherds fed themselves but not my sheep
9 therefore, shepherds, hear the word of ADONAI!
10 Adonai ELOHIM says, "I am against the shepherds. I demand that they hand my sheep back to me. I will not allow them to feed the sheep, and they won't feed themselves either. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths; they will be food for them no longer."
11 For here is what Adonai ELOHIM says: "I am taking over! I will search for my sheep and look after them, myself.
12 Just as a shepherd looks after his flock when he finds himself among his scattered sheep, so I will look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered when it was cloudy and dark.

Ezekiel 34:31 (CJB)
31 'You, my sheep, the sheep in my pasture, are human beings; and I am your God,' says Adonai ELOHIM."

*Matthew 12:9-13 (CJB)
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue.
10 A man there had a shriveled hand. Looking for a reason to accuse him of something, they asked him, "Is healing permitted on Shabbat?"
11 But he answered, "If you have a sheep that falls in a pit on Shabbat, which of you won't take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore, what is permitted on Shabbat is to do good." Then to the man he said, "Hold out your hand." As he held it out, it
13 became restored, as sound as the other one.

*Matthew 18:12-14 (CJB)
12 "What's your opinion? What will somebody do who has a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away? Won't he leave the ninety-nine on the hillsides and go off to find the stray?
13 And if he happens to find it? Yes! I tell you he is happier over it than over the ninety-nine that never strayed!
14 Thus your Father in heaven does not want even one of these little ones to be lost.

John 1:29 (CJB)
29 The next day, Yochanan saw Yeshua coming toward him and said, "Look! God's lamb! The one who is taking away the sin of the world.

John 10:26-28 (CJB)
26 but the reason you don't trust is that you are not included among my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice, I recognize them, they follow me,
28 and I give them eternal life. They will absolutely never be destroyed, and no one will snatch them from my hands.

John 14:12 (CJB)
12 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father.

Revelation 5:1-10 (CJB)
1 Next I saw in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals;
2 and I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"
3 But no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.
4 I cried and cried, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it.
5 One of the elders said to me, "Don't cry. Look, the Lion of the tribe of Y'hudah, the Root of David, has won the right to open the scroll and its seven seals."
6 Then I saw standing there with the throne and the four living beings, in the circle of the elders, a *Lamb that appeared to have been slaughtered. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth.
7 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne.
8 When he took the scroll, the four living beings and the twenty-four elders fell down in front of the Lamb. Each one held a harp and gold bowls filled with pieces of incense, which are the prayers of God's people;
9 and they sang a new song, "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.
10 You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth."


As we know, Hanukkah starts on the Hebrew calendar date of 25 Kislev, and lasts for eight days (December 8-16, 2012). The Lamb of God was more likely conceived during this Feast of Lights and born either during the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) or Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). My own belief is His birth occurred during Rosh Hashanah.

 

[Lulav]

It is not often a good idea to compare what G_d does with how human beings work - it fails in this case. Paul, the thinker, employed people to write the words as he spoke them - the job of a scribe. The people wrote what G_d inspired them to understand as being from him, with the exception of Moses to whom he spoke face to face; the words were not dictated to humans in the same way Paul dictated them to a hired scribe. A scribe responds only to words heard externally.

The L-RD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the L-RD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts

 

[dollarsbill]

Ok folks, thank you, but it is clear that the OT and NT cannot be reconciled according to what I have read here.

 

[Avodat]

Ok folks, thank you, but it is clear that the OT and NT cannot be reconciled according to what I have read here.

I've asked you two questions - neither of which have I seen an answer to. Please answer, at least, this one: in relation to the Sabbath, have you never, ever, in your life in any way, shape or form, broken the Sabbath prohibitions?

 

[WOFFED]

Matthew 5:17-19
(Complete Jewish Bible including Old and New Testaments)​

17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.

19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

( it's not easy to determine the true worth of a few dollar bills these days ) ​

 

[visionary]

Ok folks, thank you, but it is clear that the OT and NT cannot be reconciled according to what I have read here.

?? you can not reconcile the God you know and the one in scripture?? As they are one and the same... what part of scripture can you not reconcile..; preconceived notions that Paul is scripture and all the rest is out of whack??

 

[mishkan]

Matthew 5:17-19

(Complete Jewish Bible including Old and New Testaments)​

17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.

19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Works for me. Yeshua said, essentially, "Everything God has already said remains in force."

No dichotomies there.

 

[yedida]

Works for me. Yeshua said, essentially, "Everything God has already said remains in force."

No dichotomies there.

Yep. Torah as the Foundation. If it don't agree with Torah, then the problem lies with the reader.