Luke 16: A response to an article.

[paul becke]

Now! Now! Timewerx. Don't be political and anti-American. Please. It lowers the tone terribly.

 

[timewerx]

Simply...false teaching. Your misuse of the scripture to teach a works-based Gospel will have no basis in the word of God.

My only fault is not articulating it enough. I'm not trying to teach works-based salvation.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say you got a hobby and it's mountain climbing! Would you ever consider it a burden to shop and spend some real cash on top-notch equipment (for the sake of safety and showing off to friends)?

Is it a burden or a waste of money to travel halfway around the world in a 3rd world country, the dangers of their local flight services, and spending some serious cash on permits, guides, etc?

Is it a burden to trek for dozens of miles, scaling dangerous obstacles, and encountering extreme weather conditions?

Would you back down in your quest to scale a very high mountain despite the statistics telling you there's a good chance you won't make it back alive?

Would you ever consider such hobby a heavy burden, work? If your answer is yes, you'd better leave that hobby for your heart is not in it, it only helps to increase your mortality rate in climbs. This hobby requires passion and love on your part, the passion and love to face danger, the passion to not give up even if things seem impossible...

...I bet everyone who is deep into mountain climbing never by even a small bit consider their hobby a toil, burden. They just love to do it. They would even burn serious cash, risk their lives to achieve their goal!

That is how the Holy Spirit changed me. I now love to do what Jesus commands. It is now my goal in life to go to the ends of the Earth to preach the Gospel. To go where no one has heard the Gospel - those in very poor, ravaged by war, under religious and political oppression. Absolutely dangerous places for Christians - obviously why the Gospel has not reached them or the Christians are very few in their place.

It's not work! How can it be work, when you're doing what you're very passionate to do!

Doing the commands of Jesus only becomes work if you're doing it for salvation's sake - fear of hell and/or desire for the riches of Heaven...

If these bothers anyone, then your passion is not really in Christianity. Either repent or leave Christianity!

Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 3:11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

Matthew 25:44-46 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.


Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life


Matthew 10:37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me


Matthew 19:27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”


Matthew 28:19-20Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


Matthew 8:19-20 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”
20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”


James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.


1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


Can you really blame me for not seeing Jesus in Christians? I come to church on Sundays and all I see are dead people!

 

[Senecharnix]

Faith without good work is dead faith. God and the Son will reject slackers and hypocrites regardless of how much they thump the Bible, while quoting Scripture. So-called Christians that worship the idols of pride, vanity, and Mammon will suffer Hell's torments with them....

 

[timewerx]

Faith without good work is dead faith. God and the Son will reject slackers and hypocrites regardless of how much they thump the Bible, while quoting Scripture. So-called Christians that worship the idols of pride, vanity, and Mammon will suffer Hell's torments with them....

Hope you are not referring to me. I agree with you there. I just have to bible thump for it can be seen, read, touched, not like the Holy Spirit which many don't have the eyes to see and ears to hear.

Most Christians I know have accused me of being in a 'salvation-by-works' cult.

But the fact most Christians regard the commands of Jesus as some burdensome work(it's not for meee!! It's for someone else!!), proves they don't love the commands of Jesus....

If you don't love the commands of Jesus, you don't love Jesus in reality. For Jesus is the word becoming flesh. The commands of Jesus is his very essence.. Very good commands btw.. If you don't love Jesus, therefore, don't love The Father as well (most Christians just serve Mammon).

See my bible-thumping post above yours. Let the commands of Jesus be the judge against Christians and who they really serve!

 

[Senecharnix]

Hope you are not referring to me. I agree with you there. I just have to bible thump for it can be seen, read, touched, not like the Holy Spirit which many don't have the eyes to see and ears to hear.

Most Christians I know have accused me of being in a 'salvation-by-works' cult.

But the fact most Christians regard the commands of Jesus as some burdensome work(it's not for meee!! It's for someone else!!), proves they don't love the commands of Jesus....

If you don't love the commands of Jesus, you don't love Jesus in reality. For Jesus is the word becoming flesh. The commands of Jesus is his very essence.. Very good commands btw.. If you don't love Jesus, therefore, don't love The Father as well (most Christians just serve Mammon).

See my bible-thumping post above yours. Let the commands of Jesus be the judge against Christians and who they really serve!

I was not referring to you at all. Your Bible thumping always serves a good purpose. But many folks thump the Bible and quote Scripture to prove how morally superior they believe they are and show off their knowledge of the scriptures. They have reduced the Bible to the status of an idol. If God were in them, they would realize how silly and irritating they are being. Likewise, they could preach from the heart instead of resorting to throwing the Bible in other folks' faces. It seems they would notice that the likes of Yeshua, John the Baptist, and Paul typically minted scripture rather than parroting it. They would also realize the spirit that inspired true scripture is part of the fabric of all true children of God. The only Bible that any true child of God needs is in their heart. For they listen to God. That leads to them thinking, acting, and speaking accordingly. Lastly, that is what Yeshua wanted. It is also what God wants. After all, even the Devil can quote scripture. The big question is how one honors God. Being a tinhorn blaring scripture is a poor excuse for honoring God in attitude, word, and deed....

 

[P1LGR1M]

My only fault is not articulating it enough. I'm not trying to teach works-based salvation.

Sorry timewerx, but that is exactly what comes across.

Now you add to that gospel a despising of others, which serves only to elevate yourself.

While you may not mean to do it, and I am not judging the sincerity of your heart, I am all to familiar with the message you bring. I can think of at least one place in my response in which the hypocrisy of your message is evident, in which you make it seem as if everyone but you must give up all, whereas for you...it is most. It is okay for you to retain something, but you prescribe something different for everyone else.

Then, you give an example that represents funds spent on missionary work, likening it to the hobby of biking. It is a good example, but consider that it does not represent the statements I addressed.

The bottom line, timewerx, is that teaching a poverty gospel that speaks only of money and possessions and does not speak of the issue of being poor in spirit, is as bad as a health/wealth gospel. A balance has to be drawn between all of the teachings, and that was not evident in your statements, and were addresses as such.

Money is necessary for a number of things. Recall the collections taken up in the early Church. This money came from those that had been blessed so that they could contribute to the spread of the Gospel. To take core of those that truly were destitute. It is no different today. I give to missions. I give to support those that minister the word to me. God blesses me with work so that I can make money to feed and provide for my family.

Paul's opinion of those that do not work?


1 Timothy 5

King James Version (KJV)



8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


Now, I see you are, or are going to be involved in missions, and I commend that. If you are single, and do not have a family to suport, then you have been blessed for that work and given circumstances that might alleviate an obligation to provide for a family. But understand that while we all have a responsibility to understand the Goespel and be ready to give a reasonable account of that which Christ has done, not all are missionaries in the truest sense.

There are those that are simply mundane, hum-drum Christians, lol, who are not commissioned for field work. For us, we have to work, and we should be good stewards of that which God gives us.

And in my opinion, timewerx, our stewardship is under the highest degree of scrutiny in relation to God's word. God gave man His word for the specific purpose that we might know Him and His will for our lives. That which we endeavor to achieve in relation to our neighbor and how we handle God's word are directly related, as the Lord often made clear in His teaching. The "stewards," those in prominent positions over the mundane, hum-drum believers, such as the Publican, are cast in a light that is quite dark. They exalted themselves over the sinners, seeing that they themselves were righteous.

And I hate to say it, my friend, but you are doing the same thing. And this is a familiar attitude I am used to seeing in some. Don't get upset with me, but consider that what I am saying is for your benefit. I challenge you to reread my response to you and to examine...your words, not mine. My responses will, I believe, point out the spirit of your words, and perhaps you might see that instead of glorifying God, which is the duty of every missionary, you are instead glorifying yourself.

Now, before getting too upset with me, timewerx, let me just say that most, I believe, go through stages in their walk with the Lord. I think we all go through a stage where we are very pleased with ourselves, and look down our noses at others. Some will never progress from this stage, but for some, it will be a learning experience and it will propel them toward humility, which is pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

One preacher said once, "The chief end of man is to glorify God." He is right. If we glorify God, we are pointing people toward the One that can save them. We are but tools in the hands of the Master Craftsman, Who is building His Temple with living stones which need some shaping.

I'll give you an example.

I think it is a great analogy. The work which needs to be done has expenses. When you are in poor countries, there is going to be a need to supply need. And while the goal is to bring others into relationship with Christ, where they too can experience the blessings of God, there is going to be expense. One of the missionaries we have sent out visited recently, he ministers in the Philipines. The Church is growing there and there is a recognizable difference in the situations of the saved there.

And it is similar to the saying, "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish, and he will eat the rest of his life."

That is what is taking place in their lives. Because they are being led to the Lord, they are experiencing a difference in their lives.


Psalm 37:25

King James Version (KJV)


25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Can you really blame me for not seeing Jesus in Christians? I come to church on Sundays and all I see are dead people!

The implication is that you alone are righteous.

Do you really feel that way, timewerx?

There are none in your congregation as...good as you?

Well, this is for you to work out, my friend. I can suggest you examine your heart for making statements like these, and while it may anger you, I think there is pause for consideration here. Like I said, I think we all go through stages. Combined in the stage of the lofty attitude is being discouraged by finding out that the people in your Church...are people too. When we first begin attending a fellowship after we are saved we think we are in a crowd of people who are holy and righteous, while we are vermin that have come in among them. Then we hear someone cuss, and we are shocked. We think, "Well, I don't do that," so we consider ourselves better than they.

When I was first saved, I thought that if I stopped doing this or that (cussing was one of those things, lol) I would be a better Christian. It was relatively easy to stop. It was quite a while later, though, that the Lord taught me the lesson of examining my heart. I thought because I didn't cuss, I was doing good, though I gave no consideration to the fact that my temper betrayed a serious heart issue, and because I didn't cuss still did not justify venting on other people. He showed me that my heart, not my mouth, was what needed to be cleaned up.

And it seems the derailment of this thread is settled, so, timewerx, I would be glad to look at the basis of your faith and the way you convey that message. Our work is to glorify God and to preach the Gospel, which is very simple. It is only when we set conditions which are not given by God that we stray away from the focus of our work. We trace the Gospel all the way back to Adam's fall, and understand that God intended to do the work necessary for reconciliation, and that man, being dead in trespasses and sins, would be alseep (spiritually) just like Abraham, even as we see that Gospel progress in the Abrahamic Covenant...which is again foundational to the New Covenant. The First Covenant, the Law, did not annul the promises of God, nor did it place conditions whereby man contributes to salvation. Salvation is wholly the work of God, and when we see the conditions and traditions of men thrown in there, we must remove them, and point men back to the Only Savior God.

And one day...I will get back to the OP.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I was not referring to you at all. Your Bible thumping always serves a good purpose. But many folks thump the Bible and quote Scripture to prove how morally superior they believe they are and show off their knowledge of the scriptures. They have reduced the Bible to the status of an idol. If God were in them, they would realize how silly and irritating they are being. Likewise, they could preach from the heart instead of resorting to throwing the Bible in other folks' faces. It seems they would notice that the likes of Yeshua, John the Baptist, and Paul typically minted scripture rather than parroting it. They would also realize the spirit that inspired true scripture is part of the fabric of all true children of God. The only Bible that any true child of God needs is in their heart. For they listen to God. That leads to them thinking, acting, and speaking accordingly. Lastly, that is what Yeshua wanted. It is also what God wants. After all, even the Devil can quote scripture. The big question is how one honors God. Being a tinhorn blaring scripture is a poor excuse for honoring God in attitude, word, and deed....

I would agree that "throwing scripture in people'sface is wrong, but, I would also say that it is vital to have a proper understanding of scripture as well, and there will be times when that "thumping" is for the good of the one getting "thumped:"


2 Timothy 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


By study we exercise our senses to discern good and evil, and for all of us, Senecharnix, there are going to be times when our toes get stepped on, lol. It's not always pleasant, but if we submit ourselves to that which scripture teaches, it is always for our good.

Consider:


Matthew 23

King James Version (KJV)


1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


It is easy to point out where others are in error, but to examine ourselves and allow scripture to show us the sin inn our lives is much harder. As we look into scripture it is vital to have a proper understading of what is being taught that we might apply those truths in our lies. The fruit we produce will be evidence of scripture's effectiveness as we are conformed to the image of Christ.

We are all on that journey, and at different stages of progress. As we come together to discuss he ord we can, because we have different perspectives, different methods of study, and different lives...help each other as we walk with the Lord

They would also realize the spirit that inspired true scripture is part of the fabric of all true children of God. The only Bible that any true child of God needs is in their heart. For they listen to God.

While it is true that we rely upon the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us, we do not neglect that which God has given us in His word. For this reason God gifts men for the specific purpose of teaching and preaching, and men that have the calling to minister the word of God. So it is needful that there be those that have a sound grasp on the teaching of God's word.

And everyone starts smewhere, right? None of begin relationship with God without first hearing the word of God. We do not determine the meaning of scripture for ourselves, for the meaning is already given, and we seek to understand the meaning of scripture,that which it teaches.

God bless.

 

[timewerx]

They have reduced the Bible to the status of an idol. If God were in them, they would realize how silly and irritating they are being. Likewise, they could preach from the heart instead of resorting to throwing the Bible in other folks' faces. It seems they would notice that the likes of Yeshua, John the Baptist, and Paul typically minted scripture rather than parroting it.

That is if the bible is even properly understood.

Many believes a concept that goes completely the other way, the Gospel teaches. A radical departure from what Jesus teaches.

How did it come about is very very obvious. How did a lie became easily accepted is very very obvious.

Who could resist the very good things, this lie is offering? The promise of a long and good life on Earth and eternal life of bliss in the after life.

They point the finger at the serpent, Eve, then Adam for falling for the serpent's 'sweet talking'. But they don't see they are falling for exactly the same trick, satan has pulled over our common ancestor! The promise of good things, in exchange for death!

Those who will believe that lie will also perish by not inheriting eternal life!

 

[P1LGR1M]

I just wanted to present a few statements in light of the discussion at hand. I submit them for consideration only.

Concerning the "mediatorship" of Moses, as I said before, when we consider Christ the Mediator we look at this role on a different plane than the part which Moses, a servant, played in the giving of the Law. We can understand him to be a mediator, but not in the sense which Hebrews presents Christ, for there is no precedent. We will, when we get a new president, get exactly that, a new president. We see a man occupying the same role that another man previously did. But when we see Christ as Mediator between God and man, this is not a position that was previously occupied by another, for there is and always has been One Mediator, and that is God.

Hebrews presents the Tabernacle, which is given in this book and in the Law as a shadow. The Law itself was in entirety...a shadow. And to illustrate this truth, consider the following passage:


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)


1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.


The writer gives description of the First Covenant and the articles associated with it. We could (and many have) go to great lengths to show a symbolic meaning to these articles, but let us consider the intent of the writer, and ultimately the Holy Spirit, in relaying these details.

In the minds and hearts of those that were under this Covenant, these items were holy of themselves, because they have been given by God. What they did not understand, because understanding was not explicitly given them, is that these things were shadows of a greater truth waiting to be revealed to man.

These earthly items represented Heavenly Truth, and were, so to speak, picture prophecies of that which they represented.


6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

The writer also points out the earthly representation of Heavenly Priesthood. Simply put, a Prophet is one that speaks to man for God, and a Priest is one who speaks to God for man.

Here we see the Levitical Priesthood serve this purpose, but, just as we look at the role of the priest in doing service on the part of man, even so we do not see Christ stepping into the role and becoming a "new" Priest, because He does not take on the role of a Levitical Priest...He is the High Priest which this earthly shadow represents. It is the same with the mediatorship of Christ in copmparison with Moses. Just as the Levitical High priest was obligated to offer up sacrifice for his own sin, even so Moses as a mediator stood with man as in need of the One Mediator...God.

Some believe that Melchisedec is "the original high priest," and that Christ is, like we get a "new" president, stepping into Melchisedec's role. Again, the role played by humanity in the earthly shadow does not negate the fact that they are not the True. No high priest in the Levitical Economy can be likened to Christ. Moses cannot be likened to Christ. Moses did not, though he offered, die for men. No high priest was without obligation to first sacrifice for his own sin before seeking to come before God on behalf of other men.


8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


But, when the time came, Christ offered Himself without sin, doing that which no man has, could, or ever will...do.

Man walked into an earthly representation of the presence of God: Christ walked into the Holiest Place...the actual presence of God. Only He could do that.

With the establishment of the New Covenant, the shadow of the Law was replaced by the True.

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



The word here is the same word translated parable. See the Strong's link to see where it is used.

What is interesting is that over and over in Hebrews we see a constant theme of completion, translated in the KJV primarily as perfection. When we compare the aspects of the shadow, of the "parable" found in the law to Christ and the New Covenant, we see that it was not intended to make perfect, nor was it intended to replace the promises of God, nor was it intended to do anything that contradicted God's purpose and intention of providing better things for man.

So while we can look at Moses' role concerning the Law, the First Covenant, and see that it was an important role, we do not take earthly representation and make it equal to that which was perfect. The Law was intended to lead man to Christ, it was not intended to be the Savior.

Christ's Mediatorship stands alone in redemptive history, seeing that God can be a Mediator without the need for assistance.

And just as we see Christ and the roles He fulfills in the Law and even before the giving of the Law, we distinguish between shadow and True, parable and that which it represents, perfect and...incomplete.

The writer teaches that Christ is Complete, bringing a salvation that is Complete. The Law could not Complete...the work of Christ does. Moses could not mediate eternal salvation...Christ does. Melchisedec was not The Great High Priest...Christ is.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That is if the bible is even properly understood.

Many believes a concept that goes completely the other way, the Gospel teaches. A radical departure from what Jesus teaches.

How did it come about is very very obvious. How did a lie became easily accepted is very very obvious.

Who could resist the very good things, this lie is offering? The promise of a long and good life on Earth and eternal life of bliss in the after life.

They point the finger at the serpent, Eve, then Adam for falling for the serpent's 'sweet talking'. But they don't see they are falling for exactly the same trick, satan has pulled over our common ancestor! The promise of good things, in exchange for death!

Those who will believe that lie will also perish by not inheriting eternal life!

Timewerx, you can't possibly cast every believer into an enslavement to a water-down gospel. How many in your fellowship have you talked to? All of them? That you can judge them to be spiritually dead?

Immature, maybe. But you need to learn to speak to every individual and understand what they believe before presuming to judge their spiritual condition. If you did so, you might be surprised.

Understand that God works in our hearts and it is He we are trusting to perform the work which will cause us, not help us, but cause us to grow.

When I was first saved I had a friend who held the same view you project: "The whole church has been deceived!"

This shows an utter lack of trust that God can, and does, work in men's lives for the purpose of sanctification. And while it is true that scripture teaches a many/few ratio, and that in many pulpits there is just horrible, and sometimes, evil teaching, we cannot forget that it is God doing the salvific work that makes men grow. For those that sit in a fellowship where the teaching is in error, I believe God will urge them to relocate, to find a fellowship where they can grow. For some, I think that He will use them where they are for the purpose of having, or I should say...making a difference.

But my friend, we have to be careful when we find everyone else...in error. lol

It is easy to do, because the message of the Cross is offensive to the natural man. Plus...it has a way of stepping on the toes of all of us...right? Two sides to the Sword...all working for our good.

By the way...are you voting today?

God bless.

 

[timewerx]

which you make it seem as if everyone but you must give up all, whereas for you...it is most. It is okay for you to retain something, but you prescribe something different for everyone else.

See what happens if I just put up verses without explaining!

Realistically, speaking, we only give out most, not all. The disciples for example, did not give up all their possessions, they retained their boat for example. They use it for fishing, and probably for missions work (travel) too.

When Jesus was resurrected and saw the disciples fishing in their boat, Jesus did not condemn, them, even help them.

However, many push this concept far beyond that what is regarded as righteous out of their love of money.

Money is necessary for a number of things. Recall the collections taken up in the early Church. This money came from those that had been blessed so that they could contribute to the spread of the Gospel. To take core of those that truly were destitute. It is no different today. I give to missions. I give to support those that minister the word to me. God blesses me with work so that I can make money to feed and provide for my family.

I go by the teachings of Jesus and we agree here.

Money is a necessity, but only due to the fact that the wicked gives much value to it. It allows us to 'move' in this evil world.

In essence, money is like a filthy, heavily polluted stream that unfortunately, we must wade/swim into in order to do God's work in this evil world...

Unfortunately many who wades in this filth eventually falls in love with it. Instead of shaking it off when they got off it, they like to keep this filth in the wallets, save it in banks.

The message I'm trying to say here is that it's okay to work for a living, to earn money, etc. But at the end of the day, give away as much as possible. Money is never good for keeping and for buying things to yourself that you really don't need to survive and useless for God's work.

If we go by Gospels. We see a life of self-denial, extreme austerity, near empty bank, even if say, you're making a six-figure income or higher!

It is actually feasible to set aside 50% of your income for God on a 20k combined salary for a 4 person family.

It's a very tight setup. But at the very least, you'll have something over your head, won't freeze in winter, have basic utilities + internet/phone, won't get hungry, a decent personal transport for whole family, get your kids to school (up to high school only, university, if under scholarship). Bottom line is that you'll have all your needs met!

The downside is that you won't be getting the latest Iphone, you won't be able to show off anything to your friends, and your family will hate you! But scriptures tell, that is inevitable if not all of family become true Christians. Members of your household will be your enemies, and I tell you, it's true!

It's a sad thing, the only thing stopping the Gospel being spread to the dangerous parts of the world and tens of thousands dying of hunger are disobedient christians!

They exalted themselves over the sinners, seeing that they themselves were righteous.

And I hate to say it, my friend, but you are doing the same thing. And this is a familiar attitude I am used to seeing in some. Don't get upset with me, but consider that what I am saying is for your benefit. I challenge you to reread my response to you and to examine...your words, not mine. My responses will, I believe, point out the spirit of your words, and perhaps you might see that instead of glorifying God, which is the duty of every missionary, you are instead glorifying yourself.

Did I not say this? Please go back to my earlier response:

That is how the Holy Spirit changed me. I now love to do what Jesus commands. It is now my goal in life to go to the ends of the Earth to preach the Gospel. To go where no one has heard the Gospel - those in very poor, ravaged by war, under religious and political oppression. Absolutely dangerous places for Christians - obviously why the Gospel has not reached them or the Christians are very few in their place.

I'm not implying I'm the only one who got the truth correctly. Actually, there are couple more others here.

It's just sad, I have never met such Christians face to face yet.

I'm not here to exalt myself. I'm here to tell the truth.

 

[timewerx]

Immature, maybe. But you need to learn to speak to every individual and understand what they believe before presuming to judge their spiritual condition. If you did so, you might be surprised.

7 seater SUV for daily commute to work, latest Iphone, new 3D LED TV, latest GPS, upgrade laptop, dinner parties every week, different homes...

...Prayer meetings on jobs, jobs, better jobs, jobs jobs, promotions.

Moving to a bigger and better house, upgrade car, get a bigger fridge, golf, golf, golf, cruise on a big ship, travel exotic places, enjoy life, my world is my playground...

Do you want me say more?

Oh yes, I did speak to people on one prayer meeting. I actually said "we keep praying on things we want, things we desire, what if God has other plans for us, what about God's will"

"Will God bend his Will to satisfy our wants/desires"

And everyone was silent, even the pastor! From that day, I wasn't invited to meetings anymore!

 

[Clare73]

The only Bible that any true child of God needs is in their heart. For they listen to God.

Without Scripture against which to measure it, how do any know what spirit is influencing them?
How do they know it is God they are listening to?
Satan masquerades as an angel of light, filling with agreeable knowledge, experience and spirituality.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[timewerx]

Without Scripture against which to measure it, how do they know what spirit is influencing them?
How do they know it is God they are listening to?
Satan masquerades as an angel of light, filling with agreeable knowledge, experience and spirituality.

In the faith,
Clare

Is the knowledge of the bible or someone with the knowledge of the bible the only one will save you?

I seriously hope not!

There are many souls in countries ravaged by war, poverty, religious and political oppression where many thousands die everyday where christian missionaries are so few because many many more chose to just wax their SUVs and have gossip sessions on weekends

I believe there remains hope for them even in insurmountable odds, even in the absence of Christians. Some of them will get saved and enter Heaven! It is scriptural! Otherwise, you picture a God who is unfair and unmerciful to those who were never visited by missionaries!

This doesn't mean it's okay to neglect them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Part Five


Additionally, we are told that dogs came and consoled Lazarus in his misery, licking his sores. The Jews considered the surrounding Gentiles to be unclean "dogs." Even Yeshua himself used this unflattering comparison when he conversed with the Greek Syrophoenician woman while in the region of Tyre (Mark 7:24-30).

We note that it is not figurative that the dogs came and licked his sores. Just as we noted that it is not figurative that both men die. Figurative would be like the Lord saying..."Lazarus sleeps."

Understanding Christ to have fulfilled a ministry which was prophesied helps us to understand the Lord's seemingly uncaring speech at times. He told His disciples...


Matthew 10:6

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:


6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Did He not come to save mankind? Yes, scripture cannot be misunderstood, but, what can be misunderstood is that not only was the Messiah going to minister to the need of salvation to all men, He also had a ministry specific to Israel to fulfill.

And He still does. Israel, on a National basis, still awaits her Messiah. We think of that and are saddened, but it is according to God's plan to save only a remnant from among the Chldren of Israel in this Age. We will see National Restoration in the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom, when Israel will be brought under the New Covenant...as God promised she would be. At this time it will be true, "all Israel will be saved."

So do we agree with the author and make Lazarus a Gentile, and the rich man representing Judah? I think we would be reading into the text that which is not there if we did. We can view this story first in it's simplest meaning before trying to spiritualize the text so that we can make it better fit our belief.

Right?


Also important to the story is the meaning of the name Lazarus. This Greek name is a form of the Hebrew Eleazer, and it literally means "he whom God helps." The use of this particular name is very significant to the message of the parable, for the Gentiles would indeed become "those whom God helped" through the sacrifice of His son, Yeshua.


While very interesting, it does not change the intent of the teaching in the story, but rather complicates it. We go back to what was mentioned earlier which is that it is not the Sacrifice of Christ that Abraham points to as the means of escaping the torment the rich man finds himself in, but Moses and the Prophets.

So making this a reference to the work of the Cross makes little sense.

Abraham is specific in stating that if they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, the appearance of one who has died will make no difference. So to mkae a correlation between Lazarus and the Resurrection of Christ both ignores the specific statment against it by Abraham as well as the fact that...no-one, not even Christ's closest disciples, understood the work of Messiah concerning all of mankind.


LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried." (NKJV)

The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.


Especially if it does not help establish a basis for one's doctrine.

Rather, when we approach scripture it is always best to do so with an eye to the literal intent. This is true of the teachings of Christ and it is true of all teaching, especially when we consider escahatological issues. When we see metaphor, symbolism, hyperbole, et cetera, this is usually understood, though sometimes it might take some intense consideration to see it. And in this story, there is a simple teaching of accountability and judgment.

What we conclude, though, will be determined by both our understanding and desire to hear what is said, rather than trying to find "hidden meaning."



First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua.


And I will end this segment on this statement.

The author seeks to prove that the language employed is symbolic. Is that really a matter which changes the intent of the story? Does it change the fact that in the story both men die? One is comforted and one is tormented? That the Lord is teaching about judgment based upon the lives led by the individuals that are the main characters?

No.

He says that...


this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally,


Well, what about this story...is to be taken literally? The teaching it contains...of course. Would those that listened to the Lord relate this story have thought about the rich man being Judah, and Lazarus being a Gentile? Would they have instead of seeking to understand why the Lord relays this story have rather began to try to see some deep understanding hidden in the story?

Why would we? Why would we need a lengthy article to understand the simple lessons taught in this story, as the original audience would have?

I have talked to a great many people that deny Hell and everlasting punishment and I usually ask one question of them: "When you first read this story, what did this story convey to your heart?"

Most will usually admit that what the story spoke to them was that there was a fate for man after death and that not all men will receive the same fate. There are two possible outcomes which are torment (separation from God) and comfort (escaping that separation). We usually narrow that down to "You will either go to Hell or Heaven. "

So how does one go from the usual understanding found in this teaching to a denial of Hell and eternal punishment? Well, first you begin by denying what the word of God is speaking to your heart, and this is usually done because the word comes into conflict with what you decide is right, and just, and holy. Not what God's word teaches is right, just, and holy. Then you begin, as our author does, to complicate issues by inserting into the text explanations designed to soothe the conscience, to placate the fear of God which scripture brings about in the hearts of men.

For those of you that like to highlight that fear of God is a "reverential fear," I would remind you that there is good reason to have a healthy fear of the One that brought you into this world, and can at any time...take you out. We fear our parents with a fear of that nature, knowing that they have the power to discipline us in ways that we would not desire. But we have to make fear of God lack a recognition of His power?

I almost, when it was popular to put stickers that said "No Fear" on vehicles, have a sticker printed up that said, "No Fear?" and then under that put Matthew 10:28. Never did it, but wished I had. But that kind of "reverent fear" that lacks acknowledging the difference between God and man and seeks to create a buddy-buddy relationship rather than a proper perspective of man in relation to God is, I fear (lol), a deception we create for ourselves.

We see a number of occasions where when a man comes into God's presence, he falls on his face...in fear. There is a reason for that. God is not on an equal plane with man, He is God, and we should recognize a fear of His awesome power that exceeds a "reverent fear" by which we can coddle our pride.

So I ask again: what exactly dod the word of God speak to your heart when you read with your own eyes, or heard with your own ears, that which the word of God teaches concerning eternal judgment. Will you be honest at least with yourself and admit that it brought about a fear of judgment, a fear of separation, a fear...of God?

Some will, some won't.

Will you admit that it was not until you aought out resources other than the word of God that you were able to convince yourself that the simple teaching found in this and other teachings of Christ concerning Hell did not mean what He said?

If you are honest...you will.

We need to spend more time in the books of the Bible than we do in books about the Bible. With the availability of information today, it does not matter what you want to believe, if you look long enough, you will find someone that agrees with you, and you will be able to placate the conscience God seeks to convict.

But keep in mind, nothing speaks to the heart of man like the Bible does. Nobody speaks to the heart of man like God does. Shall we have eyes that see not, and ears that hear not? Or shall we be obedient to the One that seeks to speak to you, to convict and convince?

 

[P1LGR1M]

7 seater SUV for daily commute to work, latest Iphone, new 3D LED TV, latest GPS, upgrade laptop, dinner parties every week, different homes...

...Prayer meetings on jobs, jobs, better jobs, jobs jobs, promotions.

Moving to a bigger and better house, upgrade car, get a bigger fridge, golf, golf, golf, cruise on a big ship, travel exotic places, enjoy life, my world is my playground...

Do you want me say more?

Oh yes, I did speak to people on one prayer meeting. I actually said "we keep praying on things we want, things we desire, what if God has other plans for us, what about God's will"

"Will God bend his Will to satisfy our wants/desires"

And everyone was silent, even the pastor! From that day, I wasn't invited to meetings anymore!

Have to get going, timewerx, but look, I do enjoy talking with you.

My hope is that God will use to minister the word of God to others and that salvation will be the result. I hope, lol, it will not just be as a tool, lol, like those that sat in Moses' seat.

I yank your chain a little bit, but sometimmes it seems useful, so forgive me. But again, taking on a "martyr complex" when you are offensive with those you fellowship is often seen as a badge of honor for some. I encourage you to look at this in your life. Being excluded from joint worship or study is not something to boast about. To be an effective minister, especially if you intend to do so in hostile environments, you will have to balance your view of those that you teach with a healthy perspective of your own spiritual condition, that you not be puffed up and become unuseful for the Lord's work. You should be able to go into hostile environments and teach. How else will you be effective? It can be done by God's empowerment and it needs to be kept in mind that it is God Who does the spiritual work, not us.

Concerning those that are caught up in material possessions, I will say that perhaps Americans, because they have freedom and freedoms not found in many places in the world, tend to be shallow. But, as I said before, we have to recognize the ability of God to minister to those that have an immature understanding of His word and therefore have questionable priorities.

So what do we do? Only that which God allows. And I think if we recognize our weaknesses first and let that lead us to further reliance in God He will be better able to use us for His purposes, and there fore be better ministers (not mediators, lol) of the New Covenant, which has in place the absolute advantage of the indwelling of God, whereby He works through us, rather than that which religion has, which is trying to work God.

While there is a definite discrepancy between the Gospel and the consequential changes the New Birth brings about in the lives of the Body of Christ and...Modern Christendom, we will, I think, be more effective in our ministry if we keep in view our reliance upon God at all times. I do not believe that Christ would condemn the Pharisee for pride and self reliance and then incorporate that into our lives as well. But rather the key to growth is a better understanding of our weakness, whereby we are moved to compassion for those that we feel are in serious disagreement with both doctrinal and practical areas of what scripture teaches about relationship with God.

And just so you know, my friend, I do not exclude myself from my own "advice," lol. I am a tough critic, but try to be toughest on myself.

And that is an easy endeavor, lol.

God bless.

 

[Clare73]

I just wanted to present a few statements in light of the discussion at hand. I submit them for consideration only.

Concerning the "mediatorship" of Moses, as I said before, when we consider Christ the Mediator we look at this role on a different plane than the part which Moses, a servant, played in the giving of the Law. We can understand him to be a mediator, but not in the sense which Hebrews presents Christ, for there is no precedent.

Hi, PILGRIM,

Your posts are always such a pleasure to read.
Thanks for presenting them.

And other things worth considering also:

that the mediator was the one through whom the Covenant was cut.

Moses would be the mediator (Gal 3:19) of the Sinaitic Covenant because
God cut it through him (Ex 24:3-8) with the people (Ex 19:3--24:8; Dt 5:22-33).
Scripture also presents Moses mediating between God and the people (D5 5:22--6:2, 7:11-16).

Likewise, Scripture presents Moses as interceding with God for the people, to turn away his wrath when he would destroy them (Dt 9:11-13, 18-20, 23-29, 10:10-11).

And finally, it presents Moses as the Prophet who is the pattern for Christ (Dt 19:15-19).

I see Scripture as presenting a rather full picture of Moses as a shadow (Heb 10:1), type ("picture prophecy"), pattern of Christ as Mediator, Intercessor and Prophet.

But of course, types ("picture prophecies") are not the reality (Col 2:17), they are only a shadow pointing to the reality.

Moses can be likened to Christ in that he was a shadow or type ("picture prophecy") of Christ as Mediator, Intercessor and Prophet (Jn 1:21, 6:14; 7:40; Mt 11:3; Lk 24:19),
in the same way the sacrifices were a type of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice.

And then in terms of covenants with his people, the New Covenant was enacted by/through a new Mediator, in contrast to Moses, the "old" mediator, whose office no longer exists.

But since the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant is now obsolete (old) and has disappeared (Heb 8:13), the mediatorship of Moses on which it was based is also obsolete, has disappeared, and is no longer in effect.

<skip>

The writer also points out the earthly representation of Heavenly Priesthood. Simply put, a Prophet is one that speaks to man for God, and a Priest is one who speaks to God for man.

Here we see the Levitical Priesthood serve this purpose, but, just as we look at the role of the priest in doing service on the part of man, even so we do not see Christ stepping into the role and becoming a "new" Priest, because He does not take on the role of a Levitical Priest...He is the High Priest which this earthly shadow represents.

Consider also that in fulfillment of Ps 110:4, God made Christ the new eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:6, 10, 6:20, 7:11-17, 21-22), who was priest of God Most High (Heb 7:1), and was greater than father Abraham (Heb 7:6-10), who likewise was greater than Moses.

<skip>

The writer teaches that Christ is Complete, bringing a salvation that is Complete. The Law could not Complete...the work of Christ does. Moses could not mediate eternal salvation...Christ does. Melchisedec was not The Great High Priest...Christ is.

And all the saints said, "Amen!"

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

The only Bible that any true child of God needs is in their heart. For they listen to God.

Without Scripture against which to measure it, how do any know what spirit is influencing them?
How do they know it is God they are listening to?
Satan masquerades as an angel of light, filling with agreeable knowledge, experience and spirituality.

Is the knowledge of the bible or someone with the knowledge of the bible the only one will save you?

I seriously hope not!

There are many souls in countries ravaged by war, poverty, religious and political oppression where many thousands die everyday where christian missionaries are so few because many many more chose to just wax their SUVs and have gossip sessions on weekends

I believe there remains hope for them even in insurmountable odds, even in the absence of Christians. Some of them will get saved and enter Heaven! It is scriptural! Otherwise, you picture a God who is unfair and unmerciful to those who were never visited by missionaries!

The statement was all inclusive.

This does not answer my question.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hi, PILGRIM,

Your posts are always such a pleasure to read.
Thanks for presenting them.

Thank you for the kind words.

I think we can safely say that the issue of Christ being a "new" Mediator arose from my inadvertantly saying "mediator" rather than minister, lol. My statement that scripture does not say Christ is the New Mediator (which would of course imply there was one fulfilling that role previous to Christ's role) was challenged by what I consider a sketchy translational effort found, as far as I know...in one translation. And only this translation, that I know of, does so.

So we look at the content, intent, and context of Hebrews, as well as the roles men played in the Covenants themselves, in order to see if this can hold up. In my opinion, it does not. If America decided to replace the Office of President with a King, would we say that the first King was a "new" King? No, because there was not one that fulfilled that role before, he would be, the king. Would he be a new king? Yes. But, what we have to see is that this is a role never before carried out by another, as it is specific to the One who holds that position.

In regards to the OP, while interesting, it takes us off course of looking at the article, which was given as a "this ends all discussion" document that should make all clear, lol. And I love stuff like that.

I will take a look at the proposals you have brought up, though, and see if they show from scripture that Christ is a New Mediator, and Moses is called the Old Mediator.

By the way, I did not miss your post the other day, and wish to say that you are right concerning Acts 1, we do see the disciples inquiring of the earthly kingdom. What is of interest is to consider that if they understood the implcations of Christ's ministry concerning sin, this would have been of secondary importance. Some look at this verse...


John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)


22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:



...and believe this represents Christ "giving the Spirit" to the disciples. But when we look at the actions of the disciples, we see in ch.21 that Peter decides to go a fishing, lol. We look at the account of Acts 1 and see that the Comforter is yet to come. So again, read John 13-17 and keep an eye on the prophetic nature of the Lord's teaching there. Here is something to consider: many have used john 15 to teach loss of salvation. However, what is in view, if kept in the context of the teaching, is that the Lord is speaking of what is going to take place in the near future. It is a matter of record that the disciples, within a few hours, would be scattered, and it is inescapable that they certainly did not...abide. And no wonder...they were not yet born again.

Okay, sigh (lol), on to the neos mesites.

And other things worth considering also:

that the mediator was the one through whom the Covenant was cut.

I would interested to see the origination of the use of the word cut. Are you referring the ancient practice of cutting in half a pledge or is it used with a modern context?

When we look at redemptive measure in scripture, the Covenant of Law stands alone in it's "if/then" terms. What I think is important to remember, though, is that before the Covenant of Law is given to Israel, we can back up to the Abrahamic Covenant concerning the People of Israel. Paul teaches us that the Covenant of Law did not disannul the Covenant which God made with Abraham. And we can be thankful that a deep sleep came over Abraham, that there can be no confusion or debate that as Paul tells us here...


Galatians 3:16-21

King James Version (KJV)


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Paul makes it clear that God promised, and He was alone in making these promises. It was not that the seed, that is, Christ, should come due to the efforts of men. In other words, salvation (and here the emphasis is salvation for all men, Gentile inclusion, that is) was promised, and Abraham did nothing but receive those promises. There was no condition or effort that needed to be met. So we jump ahead to God's role in both bringing those promises to realization in the Person of Christ as well as the promise and see that the New Covenant, of which Christ is the Mediator, has nothing to do with Moses, or the role he played as a Prophet.

And I should point out that we have many examples of Prophets mediating, but, again, there is no connection to the promises of God in relation to redemption.


19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Two points I think might be relevant to this issue: 1) the Law was "added" because of transgression. So we ask, "Does the Law change the conditions of the promises of God?" The answer...no, not at all. How do we know that? Because he just said it doesn't in v.17.

2)it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

This is a curious statement. Here are a few verses I think we could consider in relation to the statement:


Deuteronomy 33

King James Version (KJV)


1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.




Psalm 68:17

King James Version (KJV)


17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.



Acts 7

King James Version (KJV)

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Next would be our current passage, in particular v.19.


Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;



I will not comment on these verses except to say that in Moses we do see a picture of a Prophet-King, so to speak, which is a picture of what would unfold in the Person of Christ. But again, I cannot view Moses role as a mediator to be anything but a shadow, and to base the term "new" mediator on a single text which has been over and over translated by most to view neos to refer to the covenant, not Christ, is as I said a little sketchy. Not something I wnat to remain distracted over, and it is interesting that the translation given does this, but I am not sure exactly what TUA is. lol Possibly the Urban Alterrnative?




20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

In other words, God can mediate...by HImself. In human relations a mediator acts as a go between for two parties. Now if we consider what is mediated when comparing Moses and Christ, we see that as mentioned, Moses does not stand in a position which deals with eternal salvation, but like most things dealt with in the Age of Law, the temporal aspects dominate, such as temporal death for sin, and the eternal in this Age (of Law), because God saw fit that revelation be progressive rather than unveiling everything at once, is very lmited. In the ministry of Christ fulfilling the role of The Prophet we just saw mentioned in Acts 7 (see also Acts 3:22), we still see that the Role of Christ as Savior of all (such as the Gentiles pointed out by Paul in Galatians 3) was still not revealed to men, not even His closest disciples. Though He told them directly, thy did not understand, and this because, I believe, that in order to understand this from a spiritual perspective...one must be born again, and indwelt by Him that gives understanding. Peter was rebuked because, just like in Acts 1, he and the disciples hoped that the Lord would at this time fulfill the promises made unto Israel. He was, in part, doing just that, but, they did not understand that there would be a period of time between the fulfillment of some of theose promises, like the promise of the Spirit seen in Ezekial 36:27, and the establishment of an earthly kingdom where the kingdom is restored unto Israel.

But there was no confusion about this after Pentecost. Well, except for Peter's hypocrisy in withdrawing from the Gentiles, lol.


21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.



Now, this is just my take on it, but...in other words, God is the Promiser, and God is the Completer, or, Finisher. The Covenant of Law does not abrogate the Abrahamic Covenant or the promises given, which highlights the making possible of salvation for all men.

Paul says if anything should make man righteous...it should be the Law. For the sincere of heart, it will. We often struggle in our desire to be like Christ, but I will be honest: if I could attain to the commendation of Nathanial...I would be a happy man. lol But we are conformed to the image of Christ, it is just that it is a process which involves the same growth as it does in physical growth. One is not born walking, talking, and reasoning, and similarly, one is not born again spiritually mature.

Moses would be the mediator (Gal 3:19) of the Sinaitic Covenant because
God cut it through him (Ex 24:3-8) with the people (Ex 19:3--24:8; Dt 5:22-33).
Scripture also presents Moses mediating between God and the people (D5 5:22--6:2, 7:11-16).

But we ask: "Did Moses bring reconciliation between God and man?"

I am sure you would agree he did not. He did act in the role of Prophet, and spoke that which was determined by God, and nothing introduced interfered witht he redemptive plan of God.

Whereas Christ acts as the Mediator that brings reconciliation between God and man. He fulfills the roles of Prophet, Priest, and King. And we can qualify each with...THE.

Likewise, Scripture presents Moses as interceding with God for the people, to turn away his wrath when he would destroy them (Dt 9:11-13, 18-20, 23-29, 10:10-11).

As did many Prophets. Moses asked that he be blotted out if it would save the people...he was willing to die for them. But, he did not, because if he had died, it would have counted for only one man...himself.

But Christ, being holy, harmless, undefiled and seperate from sinners, could and did die for others, that the penalty they owed be paid by His offering.

And finally, it presents Moses as the Prophet who is the pattern for Christ (Dt 19:15-19).

And again, we distinguish between a "pattern" such as we see concerning the Tabernacle, and the True.

I see Scripture as presenting a rather full picture of Moses as a shadow (Heb 10:1), type ("picture prophecy"), pattern of Christ as Mediator, Intercessor and Prophet.

But of course, types ("picture prophecies") are not the reality (Col 2:17), they are only a shadow pointing to the reality.

And that has been the thrust of my objection to seeing Hebrews 12:24 translated as neos mesites, rather than neos diath&#275;k&#275;.

Again, if tomorrow a candidate is elected king, rather than president, we would have something new. We see in the prophecy concerning Christ that He is THE Prophet...like unto Moses, but we do not exclude or negate that Moses was a man, quite unable to be equated to Christ above the pattern, or shadow. Just like we would not try to get into a matchbox car and head to the store to shop for groceries.

Where would you put the groceries? lol

Moses can be likened to Christ in that he was a shadow or type ("picture prophecy") of Christ as Mediator, Intercessor and Prophet (Jn 1:21, 6:14; 7:40; Mt 11:3; Lk 24:19),
in the same way the sacrifices were a type of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice.

And just like we distinguish between the Sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifices of the Levitical Economy, we do not put them on an equal footing. The writer of Hebrews does not. He is clear that they could not make perfect the comers thereunto.


Continued due to length...

 

[P1LGR1M]

And then in terms of covenants with his people, the New Covenant was enacted by/through a new Mediator, in contrast to Moses, the "old" mediator, whose office no longer exists.

But the New Covenant is not "new" in the sense that the Lord decided upon this Covenant because, well gee, the "old" one wasn't working, lol.

But in fact the New Covenant is the culmination of the redemptive plan of God, but where it can be seen in the sense of New is that this was promise in relation to Israel, even as the Covenant of Law was.

In other words, the promises made unto Abraham carry the intent and purpose of God to culminate in the New Covenant. Think about it: was Christ dying in man's place not a known course of action to God before the foundations of the world were laid?

We see this promise in Genesis 3:15, called the "first occurence of the Gospel in scripture:"


Genesis 3:15

King James Version (KJV)



15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Here is the NIV (1984) on that:


Genesis 3:15

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)



15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a](A) and hers;(B)
he will crush[b] your head,(C)
and you will strike his heel.”





Footnotes:

1. Genesis 3:15 Or seed
2. Genesis 3:15 Or strike

Cross references:

1. Genesis 3:15 : Jn 8:44; Ac 13:10; 1Jn 3:8
2. Genesis 3:15 : Ge 16:11; Jdg 13:5; Isa 7:14; 8:3; 9:6; Mt 1:23; Lk 1:31; Gal 4:4; Rev 12:17
3. Genesis 3:15 : Ro 16:20; Heb 2:14

(I've included the footnotes just for the fun of it, lol)

But since the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant is now obsolete (old) and has disappeared (Heb 8:13), the mediatorship of Moses on which it was based is also obsolete, has disappeared, and is no longer in effect.

But that implies that Moses' role in the giving of the Law...continued.

It did not. He died. That men venerated Moses is true, and, "Him being dead yet speaketh (lol)," is true also. But it remains that it was God that gave the Law, and if you really look at it, there was no negotiation between man and God through Moses, simply a relaying of waht Israel was to do, and not to do. THe if/then aspect was, if you do right, you will live, and if you do wrong, you will die. And the result was...they all died in the wilderness, save very few.

Now, concerning the Law being obsolete, in observance we can say this, but, the writer of Hebrews in 6:1 tells us to go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundational principles of the Law. We do not forsake or abandon those foundational principles, but we progress to the level of revelation and what that teaches concerning what God has spoken to us in Christ. The Law is vital to our understanding of sin, sacrifice, and atonement. We understand that we are not saved by keeping the Law, but then we also know...nobody was ever saved by keeping the Law, and in fact, in the Hall of fatih, ch.11, we see they received a good report, lol...not salvation. Not salvation made complete, because under the Law they continually had to offer up sacrifice for sin.

God is good, it cannot be denied. Praise God for the work He has done, and for giving us understanding of that which He accomplishes in the hearts of man.

<skip>

*sniff*

(just kidding, lol)

Consider also that in fulfillment of Ps 110:4, God made Christ the new eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:6, 10, 6:20, 7:11-17, 21-22), who was priest of God Most High (Heb 7:1), and was greater than father Abraham (Heb 7:6-10), who likewise was greater than Moses.

I just cannot consider that. This is one issue that I think most misunderstand: they see Melchisedec as establishing Christ, rather than viewing Melchisedec as a picture prophecy, a shadow of the True.

I see the Son of God working in the lives of men throughout scripture. When God walked in the Garden, that was the Son. When God was served lunch by Abraham, that was the Son. The fiery furnace? The Son. But that is just my opinion, based upon my personal study. It goes a long way to answering why no man seen God at any time and the fact that on many occasions men are seen to have met with...God.

The Son of God has been ministering to man from the foundation of the world. Melchisedec was a man. His lineage is unknown, not...he did not have a father or mother.

<skip>

*sniff*

(yes, I will re-use a good joke, lol)

And all the saints said, "Amen!"

In the faith,
Clare

Again, thanks for the kind words. It easy to get an amen when the simple truths of scripture are presented. This is an effect in the hearts of believers which bring joy to us, and it is sad that there are those that do not know that joy. But we can seek to lead them to it, right?

God bless.