Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[strangertoo]

That is the difference between a made up god, and a real God.

much of the scripture is so intricately interwoven in at least seven recognised levels/'dimensions' of meaning that it goes a long way toward validating in itself that it is mostly of one God, even before spirit baptism ...

further validated by the fact that every 'key' phrase has been altered by someone at some time to try and change its meaning , sparking seemingly endless sects/ denominations, cults, groups, who never seem to understand that logically at most one and possibly none of them even COULD be true...

which is why God Himself teaches all who are His [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11]

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Yes, that's the amazing thing, that folks think they can know God without perfecting Love in obedience to Jesus command and as stated in a vast array of statements throughout scripture , notably explicit is Ezek 18:24 which almost all folks ignore...also Jesus' point about addiction to sin :-

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Folks often say they believe Jesus but the scripture shows that they don't... many call him 'Lord' , but as he enumerates, about one in three million alive today actually obey him as Lord and love all folks all the time...

Justice is the realm of the devil

what realm is injustice then ?

----devil is a speech idiom for one who opposes God(Love)

I think 'devil' means essentially a 'liar' [from 'diabolus'] , and THE devil indicates Satan ['adversary'], final 'antichristos' [one in place of Christ] - Ezek 28, 2Thess 2, Rev 13:3-4 man of sin, prodigal son of perdition , serpent in Eden, old dragon, Leviathan, represented as the other [left-hand] covering cherub at the throne of God opposite Christ Jesus/Logos [as the two principalities of this current creation, colloquially good [Love] and evil, light and darkness, sun and moon, day and night, etc
ironically often pictured as brothers , the righteous and the prodigal sons of God...]

thus Satan opposes Jesus by means of lies by which he takes over mankind very easily indeed Rev 13:3-4, folks all-too-eager to sin as a perceived short-cut to joy [that goes wrong big-time]...Jesus and the few saints take the seemingly harder line of opposing the whole world without any violence, showing the power of Love advocated by God ... Satan convinces himself he is God [2Thess 2:4, Ezek 28, Isaiah 14] because men worship him worldwide bar just a couple of thousand saints ... God shows he cannot even save his own life, Satan dies JUSTLY for blasphemy [as he is a Jew of the tribe of Judah, under the Torah by commitment ,in order to be accepted by Jews as the Christ/Messiah

, and not at all indicative of an entity other than a man.

certainly a man, who dies , but like Jesus the man , a 'manifestation' engendering the very principality , indeed a messenger of God

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels [NOTE: messengers] unawares.

the point being that a man is just a manifestation of the ONE spirit ... there is no 'other' spirit with God

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me

The rulers of evil are not Loving----

agreed...

for how would a loving man draw his sword and intend to use it?

bad example God has required men to draw swords and use them for sake of His plan for good to all men in the end ... not least those who slay Satan to shut him up for a thousand years along with all sinners of this earth...

Yet, it is the rulers of evil whom God has put in charge of Justice---

Hmmm... last time I looked they were in charge of INJUSTICE which the simply relabel as the law ... terrible injustice which they ,in classic method of evil, label as the exact opposite of what it is

for they will indeed show their willingness to draw the sword. For the way of the world is NOT love, and neither is the god of this world.

ah, yes indeedy ... all men follow sinners except for a couple of thousand saints who truly Love God enough to perfect Love in this terrible earth...

 

[Fascinated With God]

You didn't ask a question, so how could I answer it?

Then what do you suppose the sentence ending with a question mark actually was?

Originally Posted by Fascinated With God

If one ceases to exist, a destroyed natural body (psychikos), and then much later a new spiritual body (pneumatikos) is created in a completely different context both internally and externally, what is the connection? [Greek from 1 Cor 15:44]


​

I don't think you are being very fair with your comments.
Let's all try to treat each other better, okay?

That is up to you. I don't reply to your posts by completely ignoring anything that was actually in your posts. But you seem to think that is a prefectly respectable way to have a conversation.

Here is the post that I responded to, you said I didn't answer the question. I just don't see a question.

Then apparently you didn't read my post at all. As I said before, why do you bother to reply to a post that you didn't even read?

 

[Fascinated With God]

Originally Posted by Fascinated With God

I was thinking about Luke 24:39 which was mentioned a week or two ago. If Jesus had taught annihilationism then when confronted with the Disciples' fear that he might be a ghost he would have said something like, "Surely you know that ghosts don't exist, lol!" But that is not what he said, instead he said that ghosts do not have flesh and bone. That is clear evidence against Jesus having ever taught annihilationism.
​

How is that evidence?

This evidence is a whole lot stronger than your supposed evidence about what you assume Lazarus had to say about his experience in death, even though the Bible is completely silent on the matter.

Your whole idea of evidence is merely to assume your own conclusion at the outset. So your purely speculative assumption about Lazarus is somehow evidence, while a direct quote from Jesus clearly contradicting the notion that he ever even remotely taught annihiliationism, is somehow not evidence?

You are very biased and irrational in your notion of what does and does not constitute evidence. I take it that you did not get very far with science in college.

 

[Soulgazer]

This evidence is a whole lot stronger than your supposed evidence about what you assume Lazarus had to say about his experience in death, even though the Bible is completely silent on the matter.

Your whole idea of evidence is merely to assume your own conclusion at the outset. So your purely speculative assumption about Lazarus is somehow evidence, while a direct quote from Jesus clearly contradicting the notion that he ever even remotely taught annihiliationism, is somehow not evidence?

You are very biased and irrational in your notion of what does and does not constitute evidence. I take it that you did not get very far with science in college.

I majored in physics. Your evidence might be ok, if you were trying to establish that "Ghosts' were recognized as existing by Jesus, but as an anti- annihilation statement, it's not.

Were you trying to establish that the existence of Ghosts was proof that the soul lives on after the body?

You would also have to establish that Ghosts kept their intellect and memory,as well as self awareness, things that would be impossible to prove with the New Testament.

Granted that there are many things not mentioned in the bible(i.e. Nuclear Submarines) and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What it comes down to is the "nature" of the Father----is He more or less moral than His creation?

 

[Soulgazer]

much of the scripture is so intricately interwoven in at least seven recognised levels/'dimensions' of meaning that it goes a long way toward validating in itself that it is mostly of one God, even before spirit baptism ...

further validated by the fact that every 'key' phrase has been altered by someone at some time to try and change its meaning , sparking seemingly endless sects/ denominations, cults, groups, who never seem to understand that logically at most one and possibly none of them even COULD be true...

which is why God Himself teaches all who are His [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11]



Yes, that's the amazing thing, that folks think they can know God without perfecting Love in obedience to Jesus command and as stated in a vast array of statements throughout scripture , notably explicit is Ezek 18:24 which almost all folks ignore...also Jesus' point about addiction to sin :-

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Folks often say they believe Jesus but the scripture shows that they don't... many call him 'Lord' , but as he enumerates, about one in three million alive today actually obey him as Lord and love all folks all the time...



what realm is injustice then ?



I think 'devil' means essentially a 'liar' [from 'diabolus'] , and THE devil indicates Satan ['adversary'], final 'antichristos' [one in place of Christ] - Ezek 28, 2Thess 2, Rev 13:3-4 man of sin, prodigal son of perdition , serpent in Eden, old dragon, Leviathan, represented as the other [left-hand] covering cherub at the throne of God opposite Christ Jesus/Logos [as the two principalities of this current creation, colloquially good [Love] and evil, light and darkness, sun and moon, day and night, etc
ironically often pictured as brothers , the righteous and the prodigal sons of God...]

thus Satan opposes Jesus by means of lies by which he takes over mankind very easily indeed Rev 13:3-4, folks all-too-eager to sin as a perceived short-cut to joy [that goes wrong big-time]...Jesus and the few saints take the seemingly harder line of opposing the whole world without any violence, showing the power of Love advocated by God ... Satan convinces himself he is God [2Thess 2:4, Ezek 28, Isaiah 14] because men worship him worldwide bar just a couple of thousand saints ... God shows he cannot even save his own life, Satan dies JUSTLY for blasphemy [as he is a Jew of the tribe of Judah, under the Torah by commitment ,in order to be accepted by Jews as the Christ/Messiah


certainly a man, who dies , but like Jesus the man , a 'manifestation' engendering the very principality , indeed a messenger of God

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels [NOTE: messengers] unawares.

the point being that a man is just a manifestation of the ONE spirit ... there is no 'other' spirit with God

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me

agreed...



bad example God has required men to draw swords and use them for sake of His plan for good to all men in the end ... not least those who slay Satan to shut him up for a thousand years along with all sinners of this earth...



Hmmm... last time I looked they were in charge of INJUSTICE which the simply relabel as the law ... terrible injustice which they ,in classic method of evil, label as the exact opposite of what it is



ah, yes indeedy ... all men follow sinners except for a couple of thousand saints who truly Love God enough to perfect Love in this terrible earth...

Justice covers the realm of injustice. It's called "the dept of Justice" not the "department of injustice". The Code of Hammurabi, and others have all sought to control injustice through justice. It can't be done. Love cannot be legislated. Justice is repaying evil with evil, albight in a ....errr..."fair" fashion. It is in direct contradiction to the commandment of Jesus not to repay evil with evil.

 

[Timothew]

Then what do you suppose the sentence ending with a question mark actually was?

Originally Posted by Fascinated With God

If one ceases to exist, a destroyed natural body (psychikos), and then much later a new spiritual body (pneumatikos) is created in a completely different context both internally and externally, what is the connection? [Greek from 1 Cor 15:44]


​

That is up to you. I don't reply to your posts by completely ignoring anything that was actually in your posts. But you seem to think that is a prefectly respectable way to have a conversation.

Then apparently you didn't read my post at all. As I said before, why do you bother to reply to a post that you didn't even read?

The question doesn't relate to anything I remotely believe.

You are asking me what is the connection between somebody who dies and a completely different person who is resurrected. I've already said at least a dozen times that I believe the person who is resurrected from death is the exact same person who died. So what is the connection? The connection is that they are the same person.

Forgive me, but you don't have to be offensive.
Why can't you just post a question without all of the "you seem to think" junk? You seem to think you can talk to me any way you want. You seem to think that only you have truth. You seem to think that I am up to something. You seem to think that I am not a Christian. You seem to think a lot of things.

What is wrong with just having a conversation here without trying to score points?

 

[strangertoo]

Justice covers the realm of injustice.

... are you saying justice is injustice , or simply that neither justice nor injustice is Loving?

It's called "the dept of Justice" not the "department of injustice".

yes, but we know that evil labels all things as the opposite of what they really are, it's called deceit, and Satan is infamous for it...

The Code of Hammurabi, and others have all sought to control injustice through justice. It can't be done. Love cannot be legislated.

Just so ... God told Israel this , but found that He had to PROVE it to them with the old covenant ... mostly they did not learn though , even to this day... but it matters not , God requires but a few saints from tHIS world and is sure to get them...

Justice is repaying evil with evil, albight in a ....errr..."fair" fashion. It is in direct contradiction to the commandment of Jesus not to repay evil with evil.

yes, but as Jesus said, Love is only a BETTER way ... mankind emerging from the Stone Age did much BETTER with their crude 'justice' than without it ... you seem to be ignoring the 'evolution' of mankind and civilisation [as many do, not realising the vast time-span of scripture and making allowance that things have changed VASTLY in that time, though not all for the BETTER by any means... the lies men live by are however more subtle these days , but still embedded in corrupt unloving law called justice which is not justice at all..

God employs justice not because it is the whole answer which Love of all is , but because it helps all mankind get there more than without it...

thus :-

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

... [poetic] justice used to bring those who pervert the rules of the law to see their legalised injustice [of modern capitalism's monetary laws for instance , legalised counterfeiting of token virtual money] by their own suffering of the consequences ... the fall of capitalism, the end of this world because of the damage done by belief in it by the many deceived by it ...

and it is a sort of Love because there is no better way... and Love could be categorised as the best way to live for all ...

also God has said that the Love of God is simply righteousness, to keep His commandments to Love all folks without conditions... so indeed one must learn that Love is to follow one's conscience, heart of Love, spirit, mind, as guides to what is best for all ... which equally involves KNOWING God's Plan as to how He brings all men to Love eventually for sake of all men [and Himself, His purpose in creation, His proof to creation that He alone is THE god of ALL men, no exceptions] ... hence no progress without spirit baptism... and ceasing from all sin, all desire to sin , because it is unloving, destructive abuse...
there is then justice , not injustice, in bringing folks to all Love one another... and there is a RULE in the kingdom come applied with 'rod of iron', unbendable.... and sin brings second death , that is how the kingdom of Jesus is kept PURE after God ensures the few saints of THIS world who build it are perfect in Love by teaching them Himself [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11] ... by that 'Draconian' justice are the many saved [Rev 7:9-10] by works of Love in Jesus' pure kingdom of Love... in the new earth a thousand years after the death of Satan at the return of Jesus to tae the few who PROVED their Love against the whole world [Rev 13:3-4] in THIS earth

 

[Soulgazer]

Oh, no...I am not ignoring evolution, merely shortening it. People may or may not have had trouble with their leader saying he met God face to face, and that would just be a sign of the times. Today though, we should question it with as much vigor as any modern leader who made outlandish claims.

You will know a tree by it's fruit---What were the fruits of those claims? Abortive empire building, incessant civil wars, human and animal blood sacrifices and Regicide. Oppressive theocracies piled on one another where Royalty was divine right, subservience of the many to the whims of the few until ultimately destruction of the entire nation was the only possible ending.

The "god of Justice" still governs the middle east today in a never ending cycle of retribution. The previous ending will be the future ending, just with modern weapons. "You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

 

[strangertoo]

You are asking me what is the connection between somebody who dies and a completely different person who is resurrected. I've already said at least a dozen times that I believe the person who is resurrected from death is the exact same person who died. So what is the connection? The connection is that they are the same person.

I think this is an important matter to understand... and it is helpful to see , for that purpose, that Jesus' kingdom is not of THIS world as he says, but of the new earth...

so how do the few saints get there to a new universe [new heavens and new earth after this universe is destroyed along with all still sinners at Jesus' return] ?

easy, since they are translated to spirit after resurrection of any [most of them] who have died ... only few saints do not die at all...

but how do the sinners get to the new earth kingdom come ? :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

clearly not by the body, it is destroyed [Matt 7:13] , so indeed it MUST be by the spirit ... the essence of a man is his spirit and by means of the spirit was man created [so long as there is some 'dust' around to form the body] :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the spirit thus carries all that is required to make the SAME soul again from physical 'dust' in a new universe...

 

[strangertoo]

Oh, no...I am not ignoring evolution, merely shortening it. People may or may not have had trouble with their leader saying he met God face to face, and that would just be a sign of the times. Today though, we should question it with as much vigor as any modern leader who made outlandish claims.

You will know a tree by it's fruit---What were the fruits of those claims? Abortive empire building, incessant civil wars, human and animal blood sacrifices and Regicide. Oppressive theocracies piled on one another where Royalty was divine right, subservience of the many to the whims of the few until ultimately destruction of the entire nation was the only possible ending.

The "god of Justice" still governs the middle east today in a never ending cycle of retribution. The previous ending will be the future ending, just with modern weapons.

God has already said He will deal with the Jews yet again for their bizarre continuing disobedience... not least in accepting the Holy Land taken by force expressly against God's instruction ... as Jesus has pointed out the final war for the holy Land in this earth will be terrible indeed beyond the terrible sufferings of Jews throughout history... but Jesus also says for gentiles not to gloat because those who do will be next in the wrath of God ... it is really not our concern that the 'Israeli state' is an abomination to God and it certainly doesn't change the fact that all the very few saints of this earth are descendants of Jacob [except a very few indeed who joined one of the tribes of Israel as 'strangers' , became Israel] ... but it is well worth understanding why MOST of Israel and in particular the tiny righteous remnant, maybe 6 out of 7, are not Jews and never were Jews as the bible proves and explains why , the very meaning of 'Christ' [anointed one king of all Israel re-united as God states repeatedly throughout scripture] ...

 

[Fascinated With God]

The question doesn't relate to anything I remotely believe.

You do not believe in the existence of a natural body and a spiritual body, as per 1 Corinthians 15:44? That was the basis for my question.

You are asking me what is the connection between somebody who dies and a completely different person who is resurrected.

No, that was not my question. I asked what is the connection between a psychikos and a pneumatikos that makes them the same person? If they exist in completely different contexts, both internally (what they are made of) and externally (separated by perhaps thousands of years), then what is the source of continuity? My answer is that there is a continuity of consciousness which makes them the same, but you argue against this, so what is the source of continuity?

The following is a fictional comparison since technology clearly isn't anywhere near the level portrayed by the movie Blade Runner, but the original book (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep) dealt very heavily with issues of consciousness and humanity. So if it were possible to create a clone and implant memories into that clone, how would that be meaningfully different from your concept of resurrection?

I've already said at least a dozen times that I believe the person who is resurrected from death is the exact same person who died. So what is the connection? The connection is that they are the same person.

OK, so you are capable of a priori assuming your own conclusion, which proves very little other than the fact that you feel comfortable making appeals to circular reasoning. What I'm looking for is a supporting argument to your theory. Simply stating they are the same person, despite the absence of any apparent continuity that you can name, is just a statement that you think your theory is correct, not a supporting argument for your theory.





.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I split these lines from the others because none of the following statement have anything directly to do with the debate. They are all assumptions about me personally, and mostly they are wrong assumptions.

Forgive me, but you don't have to be offensive.
Why can't you just post a question without all of the "you seem to think" junk? You seem to think you can talk to me any way you want.

Why is asking what seems to me like a straight forward question about psychikos and pneumatikos something that you take offense at? I did not on this occasion engage in any prolepsis (anticipation of arguments). I did point out what seemed to me like a very applicable computer analogy, but that was quite obviously an expression of my views, not yours. So I don't get where you coming from when you claim that I have falsely portrayed your views.

You seem to think that only you have truth.

You are the one who is claiming that 99% of Christians are out-to-lunch about the true nature of Christianity, not me. My view is that the vast majority of Christians are correct. If the vast majority are wrong then what is the actual value of Christianity? I do not view myself as superior to 99% of Christians, unlike yourself.

You seem to think that I am up to something. You seem to think that I am not a Christian. You seem to think a lot of things.

I never even remotely suggested that you are not Christian, where do you get this from? I said just the opposite, that you think of yourself as one of the very few true Christians.

What is wrong with just having a conversation here without trying to score points?

I'm trying to have a conversation with you, but instead of answering my question with a supporting argument, you take offense and refuse to answer, other than to restate your simplistic conclusion, which was never in any doubt and in no way informative about how you would answer any objections to your theory.




.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I majored in physics.

I did not accuse you of ignoring the basic rules of science and philosophy.

Your evidence might be ok, if you were trying to establish that "Ghosts' were recognized as existing by Jesus, but as an anti- annihilation statement, it's not.

What is the distinction between temporary annihilation and permanent annihilation? Pretty much the same arguments apply to both types of annihilation.

Were you trying to establish that the existence of Ghosts was proof that the soul lives on after the body?

Luke 24:39 does not meantion soul, only spirit.

You would also have to establish that Ghosts kept their intellect and memory,as well as self awareness, things that would be impossible to prove with the New Testament.

OK, forget about Christianity for a moment. Point me in the direction of any religion or shamanistic tradition anywhere in the world that denies the existence of spirits after death?

To use a computer analogy, when you have a bad network and bits keep getting flipped, you have to put in a cyclic redundancy check (CRC) to double check the data. So if any one religion is unclear to me I tend to view looking at the patterns among all world religions as a sort of CRC check.

Granted that there are many things not mentioned in the bible(i.e. Nuclear Submarines) and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What it comes down to is the "nature" of the Father----is He more or less moral than His creation?

How could denying the existence of an afterlife render God more moral?

 

[Timothew]

I split these lines from the others because none of the following statement have anything directly to do with the debate. They are all assumptions about me personally, and mostly they are wrong assumptions.

Why is asking what seems to me like a straight forward question about psychikos and pneumatikos something that you take offense at? I did not on this occasion engage in any prolepsis (anticipation of arguments). I did point out what seemed to me like a very applicable computer analogy, but that was quite obviously an expression of my views, not yours. So I don't get where you coming from when you claim that I have falsely portrayed your views.

You are the one who is claiming that 99% of Christians are out-to-lunch about the true nature of Christianity, not me. My view is that the vast majority of Christians are correct. If the vast majority are wrong then what is the actual value of Christianity? I do not view myself as superior to 99% of Christians, unlike yourself.

I never even remotely suggested that you are not Christian, where do you get this from? I said just the opposite, that you think of yourself as one of the very few true Christians.

I'm trying to have a conversation with you, but instead of answering my question with a supporting argument, you take offense and refuse to answer, other than to restate your simplistic conclusion, which was never in any doubt and in no way informative about how you would answer any objections to your theory.




.

Eternal life is a gift from God to those who are in Christ.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

All of this other stuff is a red herring.

 

[strangertoo]

Eternal life is a gift from God to those who are in Christ.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

-1.- Did you not notice that it would NOT be a gift if it were conditional ... and God favours no-one with His gift, God is the god of Love of all men and Love by its nature is for all, no exceptions possible

-2.- all creation is in Christ eventually, Jesus apparently says so , if you disagree please say what you think of this ?:-

Revelation 5:13 [Rotherham] And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

 

[Timothew]

-1.- Did you not notice that it would NOT be a gift if it were conditional ... and God favours no-one with His gift, God is the god of Love of all men and Love by its nature is for all, no exceptions possible

-2.- all creation is in Christ eventually, Jesus apparently says so , if you disagree please say what you think of this ?:-

Revelation 5:13 [Rotherham] And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

I'm just saying what Romans 6:23 says. The gift of eternal life is to those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are way too many passages in the bible showing eternal destruction for me to be a Universalist or a Eternal-Tormentist.

 

[Soulgazer]

I did not accuse you of ignoring the basic rules of science and philosophy.

What is the distinction between temporary annihilation and permanent annihilation? Pretty much the same arguments apply to both types of annihilation.

Luke 24:39 does not meantion soul, only spirit.

OK, forget about Christianity for a moment. Point me in the direction of any religion or shamanistic tradition anywhere in the world that denies the existence of spirits after death?

To use a computer analogy, when you have a bad network and bits keep getting flipped, you have to put in a cyclic redundancy check (CRC) to double check the data. So if any one religion is unclear to me I tend to view looking at the patterns among all world religions as a sort of CRC check.

How could denying the existence of an afterlife render God more moral?

I don't think anyone here has denied the existence of an afterlife. The morality has to do with the differing beliefs of the nature of the disposal of those souls that do not make it into the kingdom of heaven.

I will sum up these major beliefs:
1) Souls will be tortured for eternity
2) Souls will be tormented until they learn to be worthy
3) Souls will simply be disposed of


These are all historic and ancient Christian beliefs. The morality issue is not of God, but the adherent to the various belief systems. Some believed that those that believe God would torture a soul for eternity are morally lacking.

 

[strangertoo]

I'm just saying what Romans 6:23 says. The gift of eternal life is to those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and Jesus says it is given to all because all are eventually in him

There are way too many passages in the bible showing eternal destruction for me to be a Universalist or a Eternal-Tormentist.

my friend, they ALL depend on the rather obvious and deliberate mistranslation of one word in Hebrew, 'olam' and one word in Greek 'aionios'
both referring to an aeon, an age... a finite time... it doesn't matter how many times a mistake is made, its still a mistake...

 

[P1LGR1M]

and Jesus says it is given to all because all are eventually in him



my friend, they ALL depend on the rather obvious and deliberate mistranslation of one word in Hebrew, 'olam' and one word in Greek 'aionios'
both referring to an aeon, an age... a finite time... it doesn't matter how many times a mistake is made, its still a mistake...

Then you believe God is finite?


Genesis 21:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.



Romans 16:26

King James Version (KJV)


26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I don't think anyone here has denied the existence of an afterlife. The morality has to do with the differing beliefs of the nature of the disposal of those souls that do not make it into the kingdom of heaven.

I will sum up these major beliefs:
1) Souls will be tortured for eternity
2) Souls will be tormented until they learn to be worthy
3) Souls will simply be disposed of


These are all historic and ancient Christian beliefs. The morality issue is not of God, but the adherent to the various belief systems. Some believed that those that believe God would torture a soul for eternity are morally lacking.

Would you agree that it would be immoral for those that strongly believe that scripture teaches eternal punishment...not to teach it?

God bless.