Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

I don't believe it is a sincere question, from you or him.
I believe it is an attempt to poison the well. "Oh, that guy is just like those cult members, you can't believe anything he says."

Sorry you feel that way, but, it was a sincere question. Had you said yes it would not have changed anything.

As far as cult members go, my experience with some Mormons and JWs has been quite pleasant. My hope for them is that they are ignorant of their own "faiths" doctrine not to be "damned."

There are Catholics, as well, that I have spoken to who have no business associating with the Catholic Church.


God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

Sorry you feel that way, but, it was a sincere question. Had you said yes it would not have changed anything.

As far as cult members go, my experience with some Mormons and JWs has been quite pleasant. My hope for them is that they are ignorant of their own "faiths" doctrine not to be "damned."

There are Catholics, as well, that I have spoken to who have no business associating with the Catholic Church.

A JW told me that God is going to destroy me because I believe in Jesus/God.

 

[P1LGR1M]

A JW told me that God is going to destroy me because I believe in Jesus/God.

And how did you respond?

 

[dollarsbill]

And how did you respond?

Don't remember off hand.

 

[Soulgazer]

Again your faith in man is great.

Paul did not villify the Law, and most students know this. What is missing from your basis is understanding Paul's attempt to mediate the New Covenant.

God bless.

Again your faith in confessional history verses critical history is great. That's a nice story, but the reality of it is that Paul and the church led by James(Peter was subservient in the hierarchy) did not get along at all.

Look at 2nd Corinthians chapter three. Jewish Christians came from Jerusalem to some of Paul's students. James was Bishop of Jerusalem and only he or Peter could have written those letters of introduction--- and in Paul's absence began to teach them things that he stoutheartedly opposed.

Chief among them, that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to become Christian.

Look at even in Acts, where James wrote a letter to a northern king laying out some Jewish law.

This is a schism that can be traced through subsequent churches, such as the Marcionites and Valentinians.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Don't remember off hand.

The important thing is to remember that each person, no matter what they say they are, have to be addressed on an individual basis. Usually we will find they not such a "good" this or that they think they are, lol. And vice versa, sometimes they are not as bad as their chosen moniker might imply.

And by the way, nice to meet you dollarsbill.

God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

The important thing is to remember that each person, no matter what they say they are, have to be addressed on an individual basis. Usually we will find they not such a "good" this or that they think they are, lol. And vice versa, sometimes they are not as bad as their chosen moniker might imply.

And by the way, nice to meet you dollarsbill.

This individual became quite hostile when I insisted that Jesus is God.

And you!

 

[P1LGR1M]

Again your faith in confessional history verses critical history is great.

Not to be critial or anything, but I think you mean "versus."

Just yanking your chain.

My criticism is of the scripture, surely you have picked up on that by now.

That's a nice story, but the reality of it is that Paul and the church led by James(Peter was subservient in the hierarchy) did not get along at all.

Yeah, and one of dem sneaky Catholics inserted this:


2 Peter 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;



No wait, maybe it was one of dem Jews.

lol

Come on, Soulgazer, the dissension between Paul and Peter and Baranabus and John Mark...is public record. I think Paul was a no-nonsense called it like he saw it and did so with a pharisaical proclivity for detail in obeying that which God has commanded.

Now compare the public record of the others. Only Barnabus, I think, could be considered to be free from an overly critical view, though I believe he erred due to his love for Mark.

Look at 2nd Corinthians chapter three. Jewish Christians came from Jerusalem to some of Paul's students. James was Bishop of Jerusalem and only he or Peter could have written those letters of introduction--- and in Paul's absence began to teach them things that he stoutheartedly opposed.

And Paul set them straight.

Chief among them, that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to become Christian.

And Paul set them straight.

Look at even in Acts, where James wrote a letter to a northern king laying out some Jewish law.

This is a schism that can be traced through subsequent churches, such as the Marcionites and Valentinians.

And He did so because of the testimony of...Barnabus and Paul.

Okay, I have enjoyed it, Soulgazer. Have to get going and I think I may try to take a few days off, as I have a business to run, which I sometimes neglect due to the forums.

Hope you know that nothing I have said is for the purpose of offense, though I will not hesitate to yank a chain now and then or even sometimes...attempt humor. Now that is a subject for debate itself, lol.

I will see you soon, though, Lord willing.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This individual became quite hostile when I insisted that Jesus is God.

And you!

(last post before I get throttled by my wife, lol)

I once enraged four Mormon missionaries (and honestly it was not intentional). There is no doubt that doctrinal discussion will arouse emotional response, moreso in some than others. It should be ever present in our hearts that we will give an account for every word we speak, not that which is spoken by our antagonists. If we do that and work on self control, I can tell you that what we say will have more effect. It is impossible to witness to those we offend, at least, almost impossible. Some times a few words can cause years to be inserted before we get the chance to once again pursue our greatest effort, which is to lead men to Christ. And we pray that it is the Lord, now we ourselves, that speaks to these people, for only He can reach the heart.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

And by the way, dos anyone else have trouble with copy and paste when posting, or is that just me?

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Not to be critial or anything, but I think you mean "versus."

Just yanking your chain.

My criticism is of the scripture, surely you have picked up on that by now.




Yeah, and one of dem sneaky Catholics inserted this:


2 Peter 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;



No wait, maybe it was one of dem Jews.

lol

Come on, Soulgazer, the dissension between Paul and Peter and Baranabus and John Mark...is public record. I think Paul was a no-nonsense called it like he saw it and did so with a pharisaical proclivity for detail in obeying that which God has commanded.

Now compare the public record of the others. Only Barnabus, I think, could be considered to be free from an overly critical view, though I believe he erred due to his love for Mark.




And Paul set them straight.





And Paul set them straight.




And He did so because of the testimony of...Barnabus and Paul.

Okay, I have enjoyed it, Soulgazer. Have to get going and I think I may try to take a few days off, as I have a business to run, which I sometimes neglect due to the forums.

Hope you know that nothing I have said is for the purpose of offense, though I will not hesitate to yank a chain now and then or even sometimes...attempt humor. Now that is a subject for debate itself, lol.

I will see you soon, though, Lord willing.

God bless.

And nice talking to you. And ditto on that---I mean no one any offense, I do not argue to convince merely to explain. My nature is not always human nature

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Timothew, I will be responding to this post as time allows. I have deleted the verses which have little relevance other than the words destroy or destruction, or similar words are used which had only comments such as "Destroy, not burn forever!" accompanying them. There is not much more I can do than I have already done to show destruction carries with it the state of well-being rather than just state of being.

So on with the response. I will try today to get through the New Testament verses so that I can then progress to the Old. So be patient, and I assure you that though you gave many verses I will do my best to give an answer to all, except a few that were only given without detailed commentary but simply repeat the same argument presented in most of them

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

And that judgment is the Lake of Fire.

That is their destiny.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

How could the Lord teach those that had no life?

He did, you know.


Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)


1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.



In v.2 we see that as believers sin has no more claim to bring penalty. In v.3 we see that we are associated with Christ in His death, meaning that we, in the spiritual sense, died with Him as He died on our place. Now notice in v.4 that we walk in newness of life.

That is the life contrasted with the death natural man lives with.


11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


The LIFE of Christ is not something we will have, it is something we do have, and death is not something the natural man will have, it is something he already has...though he walks in sin in this life.

Therefore the Lord could say with absolute truth, "Let the dead bury their dead."

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Another good example of existance after death, and a state of destruction which does not equate to cessation of existance.

"Soul sleep" was a doctrine that had to accompany annihilation to answer the very issue which is in view, which is that scripture is clear that when people die physically, they do not cease to have a conscious existance.

The very people that are listed in a number of passages will one day be judged...the same people. This in itself shows that they do not cease to exist.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

And here I would go so far as to say that they are being destroyed by those things...here in this life.

Like we would here sopmeone say, "Alcohol destroyed my life." The destruction is an ongoing process in the temporal, and can be seen as such here, unless one wanted to say that men are not destroyed in this life by their practice.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

So why did they not cease to exist...in the first death?

Just answer that. Then tell how this is reconciled with annihilation?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

He was, and is not, and he is about to come up out of the abyss...

Stop.

How can one be, and not be, and yet will come again?

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Again we see those that have passed on resurrected and judged.

And how does the second death differ from the first, in regards to existence? They have died once and not ceased to exist. And in Revelation we see explicit statement that judgment is an ongoing process described with words such as for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

They are dead...when they are judged. No getting around that. They were dead...while they lived. No getting around that either.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

Another good example of an existing condition:


Romans 8:21

King James Version (KJV)


21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.



This illustrates an existing condition of corruption which even the world is under.

I would also suggest reading this passage (Galatians 6) with the temporal instruction in view. Much of this chapter, just as we see in James, has the temporal, not the eternal in view, in regards to that which a man does in his life. We do see reference to the eternal, of course, but when we look at the corruption a man reaps we see that also applies to his current state, of which Paul speaks when he states:


Galatians 6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Familiar terminology:


Jeremiah 46:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.



All that are not the Lord's are considered adversaries. Even those of Israel. Consider the quote the writer employs:


Deuteronomy 32:35-36

King James Version (KJV)


35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.



In order to keep Hebrews in context, attention to the audience is vital. And while we have an application which can be seen as timeless and general for all ages, the writer's focus is on his Hebrew brethren, thus he quotes something they can understand, or...should.

Peter employs terminology from this passage:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)


2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



Deuteronomy 32

King James Version (KJV)



5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?



And again we see that despite physical life, we have those that are corrupting themselves, and are in a condition of corruption, even though they are alive:


2 Peter 1:4

King James Version (KJV)


4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Again we see those that go back...to destruction.

Illustrating the state of all who do not have the life of Christ.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

No-one is arguing that there will be destruction immposed upon the wicked, it is the condition that is debated.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Again, how can those without life walk away and no longer be disciples?


John 6:66

King James Version (KJV)


66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.



...having just witnessed the miracle of five thousand being fed with so little.

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

So what do we do with this:


Jude 1

King James Version (KJV)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Right now there are demons bound with everlasting chains. They will be judged in that day and Jude tells us that the fate of wicked men will be likewise. As does Peter.



12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


Those saved are born twice and die once. Those damned will be born once, and die twice.


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


If one ceases to exist, then it would make little sense to see an everlasting blackness which certain demons are now bound in.


Continued...

 

[Timothew]

Well Pilgrim (I feel like John Wayne saying that)

I told you what the bible says. Nothing I said was anything other than what the bible says. The bible is the word of God. Feel free to disagree, for a while.

All of the confusion results from one thing. You believe that destruction doesn't really mean destruction. The serpent said "surely you will not die". That is the same thing as "surely destruction doesn't really mean destruction."

But I will never convince you, you will have to see it for yourself, and you will.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

What is interesting is that only those that overcome escape this. John defines overcoming here:


1 John 5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?




Only the born again will escape the second death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

Just as "dead" as they were in their lifetime. Just as "dead" as they were when they died physically.

They will indeed be dead, but it should be noted that they are dead before they are judged:


Revelation 20:11-13

King James Version (KJV)


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible.

Agreed, but not with the same conclusion.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence?

God said that it was death.

Correct, He said...


Genesis 2:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



Did Adam die that day? For that matter, how long was it before Adam experienced physical death. Satan deceived the woman because the woman focused on the temporal, but did not understand the eternal.

Adam died spiritually that very day. Relationship with God was lost. Only Christ can reconcile that breach.

God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell.

He did not tell that the seed of the woman would be called Christ, either, but we can, having a more sure word on this issue, now see that He did speak of Messiah:


Genesis 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



This is a spoonful of dust the Serpent long tried to negate.

But he was unsuccessful.

If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve.

As we looked at the corruption of this world as opposed to the corruption experienced in eternal judgment, or, the temporal versus the eternal (which we do well to keep in view in every passage we seek to understand properly), we keep in mind that our temporal existence will determine our eternal existance, and we can see the effects of the curse on man:


Genesis 3

King James Version (KJV)

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.


Sin still causes man to hide from God, that their shame be concealed, as they attempt for themselves to cover their sin.


17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;


We see earlier that Satan is cursed above every beast (v.14).

Here we see the ground is cursed. No longer will man survive according to the provision of God, but he will have to work in order to survive.

The curse is further commented on:


18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


The relevance would be that we see that death involves separation, and when it comes to spiritual separation from God, that happened to all in Adam:


Romans 5:17-18

King James Version (KJV)


17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



All men are born condemned. Only through Christ can this condemnation be averted, and only in Christ can man have life.

God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever.

That does not mean He will not judge sin, scripture is clear He will. It is impossible to judge according to a man's works, have differeing degrees of punishment, and say at the same time the wicked are annihilated.

While the greatest of sins (and the only one unforgivable) is to reject the work of God in one's hearts, and to rebel against that work and reject Christ, there are those that will be judged for more than just this sin. Hitler is a great example.

Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

The imagery presented and then denied is not necessarily scriptural. While judgment is described using terminology descriptive of fire and burning, we have to understand that judgment is not necessarily "burning eternally."

Okay. I think that ends with the New Testament verses, I will return to the many prooftexts offered in defense of this doctrine as I get the time.

God bless

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well Pilgrim (I feel like John Wayne saying that)

I told you what the bible says. Nothing I said was anything other than what the bible says. The bible is the word of God. Feel free to disagree, for a while.

All of the confusion results from one thing. You believe that destruction doesn't really mean destruction. The serpent said "surely you will not die". That is the same thing as "surely destruction doesn't really mean destruction."

But I will never convince you, you will have to see it for yourself, and you will.

Are you then judging me to be in danger of hellfire?

 

[Timothew]

Are you then judging me to be in danger of hellfire?

Did I say that? No.

So why are you putting those words in my mouth?

Are you saying that you like kittens?

I am not judging you to be in danger of hellfire.

 

[Timothew]

Here is what I AM saying. You don't believe destruction means destruction.
You can not believe me your whole life. You can go your whole life saying that God is going to torture sinners in hell forever. But on Judgment Day when you see with your very own eyes that God isn't torturing anyone in hell and he isn't going to, then you will no longer be able to deny the truth.