Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

The bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If you can't accept that this means the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. How else would the bible indicate this? How much clearer could it get? If you claim that being destroyed and being "no more", means that the person is not destroyed ("they will be as conscious...") and will continue to exist ("this does not mean they will cease to exist") then you are simply refusing to understand the plain meaning of what the bible says.

When you accept that destroy actually means destroy, and "the wicked will be no more" means that the wicked will cease to exist, then we can continue the discussion. Until then, I will leave you to your own beliefs.
If words don't have any meaning, then discussion is useless.

There has been no discussion, Timothew, there has been your assertion, my examination of your assertion with a detailed response, and then a reiteration of your assertion.

Just because the primary assertion has been "Well, if you want to be blind and refuse to accept the truth. You need to accept my proof-texts without question."

You have responded to about 1/10 of what has been posted, and that without comment on the points mentioned in them.

To simply say "Destroy means destroy" might be good enough for you, and it might be good enough for others, but such a shallow definition of the destruction of Israel and that of the wicked will not suffice for those that can see that there is a destruction that leaves one, like Israel, in a state of separation from God.

To ignore the passages that specifically say that the punishment of the wicked is eternal is also a failure of the annihilationist.

But that is okay, I will finish the verses you have provided, and we will see the temporal aspect of the Old Testament, because understanding was limited during this time.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

Well, the same message is repeated in the new testament:
2 Thess 1:9, these pay the penalty of eternal destruction
Matt 10:28 fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna
And in Rev, "The lake of fire is the second death", "whoever overcomes need not fear the second death."

ETA, the NT does not have a different message than the OT.

Oh, please. I do not ignore passages that say the punishment is eternal. I agree that the punishment is eternal. I just disagree with you that the punishment is eternal torture.

I didn't call you blind. (The bible consists of "proof-texts" now???)

 

[SilenceInMotion]

To ignore the passages that specifically say that the punishment of the wicked is eternal is also a failure of the annihilationist.

Hell is whatever you deserve.
Hell in itself is not always a Hellfire., you will suffer by what you should be suffered by. If there is greater sin, there is greater punishment.
This is why the Church is big on different degrees of Hell and temporal punishment, Purgatory.

 

[Timothew]

Hell is whatever you deserve.
Hell in itself is not always a Hellfire., you will suffer by what you should be suffered by. If there is greater sin, there is greater punishment.
This is why the Church is big on different degrees of Hell and temporal punishment, Purgatory.

The church should agree with what the bible says, the wages of sin is death. Unfortunately, the church doesn't always agree.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well, the same message is repeated in the new testament:
2 Thess 1:9, these pay the penalty of eternal destruction
Matt 10:28 fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna
And in Rev, "The lake of fire is the second death", "whoever overcomes need not fear the second death."

ETA, the NT does not have a different message than the OT.

Oh, please. I do not ignore passages that say the punishment is eternal. I agree that the punishment is eternal. I just disagree with you that the punishment is eternal torture.

As I said, you ignore the passages that teach that punishment is enduring, eternally.

Just as you ignore what I have said in regards to that which I have responded to thus far. I am beginning to think that you have but skimmed over my posts, rather than reading them.

Can you tell me how it is that the destruction of Israel, which is described by the same word used in Matthew 10:28, fits your one-size-fits-all understandingf of destruction? How it is that Israel was judged for her sin and was (and is still today) in a state of judgment, that of being separated from God.

When the wicked are resurrected for the Great White Throne judgment, they will be judged, and will be separated from God eternally. Just like they are now.

If the Lord meant to say "God will kill both body and soul in Hell," He would have said that.

I just disagree with you that the punishment is eternal torture

This is your argument, not mine.

The torture is a result of the separation. As I have said before, you caricaturize Eternal Punishment to better defend your position. It is an unworthy tactic in doctrinal discussion, I would suggest you drop this one from your arsenal.

The rich man was in torment, and it was not just a physical torment, but one of mental anguish. Worry for his brothers in particular.

But what is amazing is that I am being charged with "not believing the words to mean what they mean," which is the reverse of the truth.

If cessation of existence were in view, then that is what the Lord would have said would be their fate, but that is not what He said.

God bless.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The church should agree with what the bible says, the wages of sin is death. Unfortunately, the church doesn't always agree.

Hell is deduced., like the Trinity. It is not explicitly stated, but you can discern the reality of it.,
Do you think it's a coincidence that the Orthodox, Catholic, and even Protestant churches all universally agree that Hell is real? I doubt very seriously any heretic is going to convince me otherwise.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hell is whatever you deserve.
Hell in itself is not always a Hellfire., you will suffer by what you should be suffered by. If there is greater sin, there is greater punishment.
This is why the Church is big on different degrees of Hell and temporal punishment, Purgatory.

There is a big difference between the doctrine of Hell and Purgatory.

There is nothing in the 66 books that I personally believe to be inspired that leads one to believe Purgatory is a valid doctrine.

And this is one issue that annihilationists struggle with: they do not distinguish between life (physical life which all have) and LIFE (which comes to natural man only through the New Birth).

One will consciously accept or reject the convicting work of the Holy Spirit...in this life. One's fate, once one has died...is sealed.

When one dies physically, and they are absent from the body, if they are believers, they are with the Lord.

But please, SiM, try to keep the focus on annihilation. If you want to talk about Purgatory, start a thread.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hell is deduced., like the Trinity. It is not explicitly stated, but you can discern the reality of it.,
Do you think it's a coincidence that the Orthodox, Catholic, and even Protestant churches all universally agree that Hell is real? I doubt very seriously any heretic is going to convince me otherwise.

While I appreciate your acceptance of Hell, I do have to disagree that "it is deduced."

There is enough explicit scripture to verify there is a Hell.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

Hell is deduced., like the Trinity. It is not explicitly stated, but you can discern the reality of it.,
Do you think it's a coincidence that the Orthodox, Catholic, and even Protestant churches all universally agree that Hell is real? I doubt very seriously any heretic is going to convince me otherwise.

Thanks for calling me a heretic. You are so kind. Why don't you accept what the bible says instead of calling people who agree with the bible heretics?

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Thanks for calling me a heretic. You are so kind. Why don't you accept what the bible says instead of calling people who agree with the bible heretics?

Hell is real. Trust me, there was a point when I wondered, but you realize it's reason for existing as you mature in your reasoning_

 

[Timothew]

As I said, you ignore the passages that teach that punishment is enduring, eternally.

Oh I do? Do I? Are you going to inform me next that I believe eternal death is "temporary"? Please sir, you are so wise. Tell me what it is that I believe!

 

[Timothew]

Hell is real. Trust me, there was a point when I wondered, but you realize it's reason for existing as you mature in your reasoning_

Hell is real. You are correct, and Jesus said that Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. The purpose is to eliminate evil, not to keep it around forever being tortured. As you mature in your reasoning you will start to understand that wicked people will be destroyed and will be no more. There is a final end to wickedness, it does not remain forever.

I don't trust you, I trust what the bible says.
(Why should I even listen to you after you called me a heretic?)

 

[Timothew]

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Not name-calling.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I don't trust you, I trust what the bible says.
(Why should I even listen to you after you called me a heretic?)

Lol, I'm Catholic., what else are you going to hear from me?
If there is anything you should have a problem with, it;s not Catholic doctrine., we concede to the fact that God punishes according to your evil- it's Protestants who black & white it.

 

[Timothew]

Lol, I'm Catholic., what else are you going to hear from me?
If there is anything you should have a problem with, it;s not Catholic doctrine., we concede to the fact that God punishes according to your evil- it's Protestants who black & white it.

Are you saying the Catholic Church approves of name-calling? I know Catholics who do not stoop to this.

You and I disagree about what the bible says. I guess that makes both of us heretics in each others eyes. But can't we have a discussion without name calling? I know of people who say all Catholics are going straight to hell. I'm not one of those people. Name calling doesn't help your case. It hurts your case, because it shows that you can't defend your position. It's called an ad hominem fallacy. Even if you think I'm a poopy-head, that doesn't mean that I am wrong. It's the argument of a 3 year old.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh I do? Do I? Are you going to inform me next that I believe eternal death is "temporary"? Please sir, you are so wise. Tell me what it is that I believe!

No need...you do that yourself.

I can say you ignore the passages concerning the enduring nature of Hell because I have posted them...without repsonse.

All that is given is proof-text and statements such as "Sorry you don't believe the truth."

"Sorry you can't understand destroy and perish mean desstroy and perish."

Now what I am sorry about is that first, you seem to be getting agitated, and I am sorry about that. Secondly I am very sorry that you are not grasping the intent of the posts I have given in response to your proof-texts.

Will you not cede that Israel was in a state of destruction, by the word of the Lord Himself?

God bless.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Are you saying the Catholic Church approves of name-calling? I know Catholics who do not stoop to this.

You and I disagree about what the bible says. I guess that makes both of us heretics in each others eyes. But can't we have a discussion without name calling? I know of people who say all Catholics are going straight to hell. I'm not one of those people. Name calling doesn't help your case. It hurts your case, because it shows that you can't defend your position. It's called an ad hominem fallacy. Even if you think I'm a poopy-head, that doesn't mean that I am wrong. It's the argument of a 3 year old.

It's called I can still be punished for my sins but what I do is still willed by God.
And maybe I am doomed to Hell because I find Sola Scriptura to be shameful blasphemy. Perhaps I am doomed to be your adversary. What are you going to do besides kick me out of the country club or call me the Devil?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Lol, I'm Catholic., what else are you going to hear from me?
If there is anything you should have a problem with, it;s not Catholic doctrine., we concede to the fact that God punishes according to your evil- it's Protestants who black & white it.

Glad to see you have a sense of humor, SiM, it is an important part of being mentally healthy, I believe...keep working at it.

(just kidding. sorry, its an old joke)

Concerning degrees of punishment, I think this is generally accepted by most.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

It's called I can still be punished for my sins but what I do is still willed by God.
And maybe I am doomed to Hell because I find Sola Scriptura to be shameful blasphemy. Perhaps I am doomed to be your adversary. What are you going to do besides kick me out of the country club or call me the Devil?

I could become your friend. I don't belong to the country club, and I don't name call. Who's calling who the devil? The one calling out heretic heretic or the one who was called a heretic?

 

[Soulgazer]

I would like to interject one point- No matter what anyone thinks of the Catholic church(and I have no personal problems with it), when it comes to the bible it's a catholic anthology, put together by catholics for the promotion of catholicism; they ought to know what they meant by it. There is an old saying; don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

I received a lot of my training from members of the Jesuit order. They have shown me nothing but respect and support, including where to find ancient materials. Being a "Heretic" means I cannot join their "club", that's all.