Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die.

And now we touch on something that is going to be critical to much of the doctrine you hold, Timothew: life and death on a spiritual level.

You phrase this in such a way that I do not see that it is distiguished that eternal life is gained in this life, the temporal, even as those outside of Christ are...dead. For if they have not Christ, they are by biblical definition and Christ's own teaching, dead.

Here you say it as though they will receive life or death, not, there are those that have life, and those that not only remain dead, but will die physically in that death, be resurrected, and die again.

Three deaths in view: death in Adam, physical death, and the second death.

As in the first death, which refers to natural man's condition at birth, it is spiritual death. And as death in Adam did not bring about a cessation of existance, even so the second death will not either.

They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

Yes, like the bottles perished. Like the ointment used to anoint the Lord for His death perished. Like Israel was destroyed. And this latter is the best example, really, because it represents the condition of their existance, which was separation from God.

John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

I appreciate you supplying this verse: who is it that has eternal life, but those from among the living who are in Christ, and have the life of Christ.

He is passed from his previous condition which he was born into, which is that of having "no life," even as our Lord said.

"The wages of sin is death." This applies to all of man, having died in Adam, even as Levi paid tithes in Abraham.

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

So what is his state before he receives eternal life?

Dead. And still existing. This is such an easy concept taught by the Lord, but to date, I cannot recall any annihilationist ceding this point.

Death does not mean cessation of existance. The Sadducees believed in this, and Christ rebukes them and calls it plainly...error.

John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Could I suggest to you that the Lord is speaking to Jews in the Temple. This is not a private lesson to the disciples, but involves a general audience. Among them were those that were curious, but the Lord knew the hearts of men.

John 8:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.



Now, Timothew, consider what He means when He says "Ye shall die in your sins?"

I would suggest to you that what is in view is that if they do not believe and by that receive the Lord and the life He came to give, they will remain in their current condition which is...dead. They need to believe.

And what do they need to believe? That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Go back and look at the context of the exchange, and I am sure you will agree.

But can this verse be used to prove annihilation? No. The Lord speaks of them dying in their sin, and this is a reference to physical death in the bodies they now reside in.

Are you seeing a pattern here? A pattern of passages and verses not kept in context? Tribulation passages confused with Eternal Judgment passages?

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

You realize this speaks of Babylon, don't you? And takes place in the Tribulation? We see this same word to speak of the tares being burned up. Again...where do we see annihilation?

Now, so far, with the verses presented to fortify a position of annihilation, which of these will you still choose to use?

Here are a few verses to close the evening out, that do represent eternal judgment imposed:


Revelation 14:9-11

King James Version (KJV)


9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



Before thinking it is only the smoke that arises, consider that smoke must have a source. I would again suggst you refrain from an image of people burning, but rather understand this to represent the torment of separation pictured by burning, and to recognize that for ever and ever is a long time. Not an instantaneous event.

Here we have those that have received the mark of the beast, and we see these same people mentioned here:


2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



There will not be one person to stand before the Lord and say..."I didn't know." Because they that are damned will have consciously made that decision for themselves. When the Tribulation begins, God will give them over to their fate, for this age will close and when this seven year period ends, there will be left upon the face of the earth not one unbeliever that will enter the Kingdom which will be established.

And that is it for now, Timothew. Thanks for the scripture, I have enjoyed looking at them with you, and look forward to getting into the Old Testament scriptures as well.

I hope you will give some consideration to what I have tried to convey. Go back and look at the context of the passages and see if annihilation is not eisegetically inserted into them.

Before we get to the OT passages, I would suggest maybe taking a look at them, and determining whether there is temporal or eternal view, and I will just say that in probably most that you have posted, you will find that there will be a temporal view, as the Old Testament is very limited concerning the eternal, or spiritual.

The use of words such as destroy will have both the temporal aspect as well as the fact that despite stated destruction, again, there is nothing there to suggest annihilation.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Sorry, SG, but your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the God of the Bible.

And it hinges in large part around your belief that if God punishes those that do despite unto Him eternally, then He is a cruel monster. I am sure you have heard it before, but, it is true that God would not be a righteous God if He did not punish sin, particularly those that wilfully reject Him in full knowledge of the truth.

Yes, I have heard it before, and I am still forced to reject it as superstition. "Eternal torment" is not punishment. Punishment is something used to correct misbehavior. And while "eternal Torment" may cause a miscreant to be corrected, it is pointless.

If just for a brief moment the caricature that you have used as a shield that keeps any objective thought process concerning this doctrine could be dropped, you might consider that it is not necessary to draw up the Hollywood image of Hell and realize that God is just, and that He will punish according to the knowledge one possesses. Understand that the Bible implies (I believe teaches, but I wil be conservative on this) there will be degrees of punishment. The Lake of Fire represents that time of judgment just as tares being burned up represents temporal judgment.

I am not the one advocating eternal torment. English scripture, which is the only language most american Christians read, says "eternal torment"---granted that it is mostly parable, but parable seems to be lost on most folk. If it does not actually mean "eternal torment" then it should be reworded to what it actually means.

Our Gnostic scripture teaches degrees of punishment. However, I believe this still denotes a childish appreciation for the power of God. He is God, for goodness sake, and nothing is supposed to be out of his power.

My thought process is extremely objective. I am trained in critical thought. This isn't the first time I have been up against superstition.

There will be those that will deserve great punishment (Hitler comes to mind), and there will be those deserving less.

But what I would most encourage you to do, seeing that you reject the Bible as actually the word of God, is to present the passages which you feel denies it's credibility.

Six says? Adam and Eve? Did Moses see God's butt? Did a donkey talk? metaphor? Great. Now convince me that the God of Love ordered Joshua to destroy every living thing he came in contact with. Ooops----"All who ever came before me were as thieves and robbers". Well, I guess that part is true enough. It does finish the Parable started in Enoch.

You see, I believe that an action, if it is evil, is evil of it's own accord. There were women doing their dishes, tending their babies, men who were just trying to get their work done...and Oooops....here comes Attila..Hitl..errr Joshua. Hey, maybe his men were reluctant...."it's OK private, God told me we had to....make sure you look in their pockets and bring me any coins you find." Gott Mit Unns.

They all said God commanded it----they sure weren't going to say it was a devil. However, actions do speak a whole lot louder than words.

Now that I have dumped on the Jewish faith, let me say I am not anti-semite---you can believe anything that helps you sleep as long as you don't harm anyone else.

As for the New testament, except for a few letters of Paul, I have read enough and talked with enough historians to be convinced most of it was written in the late first to mid second century. Understandable, as everybody thought that they weren't going to be around that long, and by the time anyone figured it out there was some scrambling to write some stuff down.

And they did. Rather than leave out anything, even if it might seem ludicrous, they wrote down every tale they had heard no matter the source.
I have no problem with that either. I am pretty sure that the original charge that John was written by Cerenthus was true. I don't care.

I look at all the scriptures, in the bible and out. There is a pattern.....John portrays Thomas as a doubter, Thomas portrays Peter as a Hothead, Peter replaces James, and round and round. Again, I don't care.

Because the "word of God" is that which can translate a subject, no matter where it is found, into a moral lesson. That is why Paul said that the "Letter" is dead. Once anything is written, it is no longer alive, but immutable and people start to turn it into "law" and look to follow the "letter", falling into the trap of the pharisee. "No...Bilbo wore the ring around his neck...we can't put those on our fingers!"

All this talk about rapture, judgment day, hellfire and magical formulas to be the "right" kind of Christian is entertaining but it obfuscates the overall message of "be excellent to each other". Anything that implies otherwise, I reject out of hand. I "believe" that Christ defeated death, walked through walls, strolled across mud puddles because He could see the underlying reality of this illusion we call "reality". And, He did it as a man, not as a God. Gods don't bleed. He defeated the pharisee time and again by turning their own scripture against them. With common sense. "Are you that dull?" He said to His disciples, steeped in Judaism..... He overturned a whole bunch of Levitical dietary law with derision. "I bring you a better way"----wait...wasn't Moses inspired by God? It wasn't a perfect law? "It was not so from the beginning, but Moses allowed it".........Moses allowed it? Not the Father? That's three times. Were there more? Yes, I know all of the apologetics, don't bother. Because I know whom the Gospel of John was talking about when it had Jesus saying "He was a murderer from the beginning". I am familiar with the ancient Naassene faith, where the Gospel originated. There was no literal devil in Judaism....still isn't...talk to your local rabbi for confirmation...and the Naasene were Jewish. And this is what they believed: Exodus 2:14. Bet you didn't learn that in Sunday school. When he told a lie and murdered he was a devil, just like Peter was a devil. It wasn't meant as a permanent state of being, in case you were wondering.

He held up a non-Jew, a Samaritan, as an example of what God expects---once again, "be excellent to each other". He also said that what is in the heart is the reality of a person, once again "be excellent to each other". And...He practiced what He preached....."Father, forgive them, they can't see what we can see, there is a better way, this way was not the way from the beginning."

Did He really do and say all these things? I don't know. If He didn't, He should have.

Then we get into the New Testament forgeries, which was no less than the church politics of the second century. Those darn Marcionites! Soon they will have the whole world! They came pretty close too. The proto catholic numbered about 20, 000 when the Marcionite Christians numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Held on in the face of Roman Catholic persecution till the fifth century, and rode out the "Prophet" Mani too. 1&2 Timothy, and Titus, all written in opposition to a rival group of Christians....a group that only accepted Paul...so, well give them Paul....what? What do you mean you have a bible? what's that? But it says it was written by Paul right here on top of the page! Guess, we'd better make a bible too! That'll show em!
The Marcionites were not impressed. Neither am I.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, I have heard it before, and I am still forced to reject it as superstition. "Eternal torment" is not punishment. Punishment is something used to correct misbehavior. And while "eternal Torment" may cause a miscreant to be corrected, it is pointless.

But it is not true that all punishment is meant to be corrective. We do not execute or put people away for life to correct them. We do that to SEPARATE them from everyone else. The premise that any construct of HELL is meant to be corrective is flawed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

What would be better would be to actually present a biblical basis, since this is after all a biblical concept.
​

Okay, and remember that you asked for the biblical basis. This is quite long since there is so much biblical proof for my position, so I am asking the moderators to not edit it.
Here is the scriptural proof backing up what I am saying......................

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.

Great post bro!

Young) Matthew 23:33 `Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Young) Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night,

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.
Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.

 

[Soulgazer]

But it is not true that all punishment is meant to be corrective. We do not execute or put people away for life to correct them. We do that to SEPARATE them from everyone else. The premise that any construct of HELL is meant to be corrective is flawed.

They can be separated without being on fire. While I am convinced that no one is going to chase us around paradise with an axe, this does not mean I wish anyone any harm.
Human punishments are of course inferior to God's dispensation. While human beings may incarcerate or even execute other human beings because they don't know what else to do with them, we should hope that God does.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Satan is immortal, and he and his angels have a special place in Hell as punishment.
If Satan can be subject to eternal damnation, then so can humans. It is common for Christians to equate the Devil to pure, personified evil simply because Scripture is very explicit on him specifically.
But the truth of the matter is that no matter how evil he is, God did not destroy the world because of him. He does not punish us for his doing., He punishes us for our doing.
And so if there is hellfire for him, there is hellfire for those who are also enemies of God.

 

[Timothew]

According to the bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal damnation in hellfire.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello SG, I will only get to a few of these tonight, but did want to let you know that as I said, I am looking forward to the conversation.

Yes, I have heard it before, and I am still forced to reject it as superstition.

So what is your belief? That all will go to Heaven?

"Eternal torment" is not punishment.

No, but the punishment will be torment. Not sure why that is hard to comprehend. The torment of tribulational wicked are said to have torment , as of a scorpion's sting. Now, when a scorpion stings, would agree that the result can be called torment?

And do you envision a scorpion standing over it's victim gloating?

Punishment is something used to correct misbehavior.

I would agree with that. I remember certain punishments from my childhood: being grounded, in which I was confined inside the house; being sent to my room, again, my movement restricted and my "freedom" (such as a child has, lol) removed; being locked in the cellar.


Just kidding about that last on...just wanted to see if you were actually reading this, lol.

But those were...punishments. And perhaps you never were punished as a child, but for me, I would have much rather have just had the belt than be grounded or sent to my room. You try, like much I have read in your statements, try to make things fit your definition.

And while "eternal Torment" may cause a miscreant to be corrected, it is pointless.

Lets get it straight: Eternal puishment. Eternal seaparation from God.

If you do not see how that could cause torment, there is not much I can do about that.

I am not the one advocating eternal torment. English scripture, which is the only language most american Christians read, says "eternal torment"---granted that it is mostly parable, but parable seems to be lost on most folk.

No, you are the one that misunderstands that the torment arises from the punishment.

Danieal 12 speaks of everlasting shame.

Okay, I will get back to this as soon as I can.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

According to the bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal damnation in hellfire.

Hello Timothew, have you read the responses?

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Hello SG, I will only get to a few of these tonight, but did want to let you know that as I said, I am looking forward to the conversation.


So what is your belief? That all will go to Heaven?



No, but the punishment will be torment. Not sure why that is hard to comprehend. The torment of tribulational wicked are said to have torment , as of a scorpion's sting. Now, when a scorpion stings, would agree that the result can be called torment?

And do you envision a scorpion standing over it's victim gloating?



I would agree with that. I remember certain punishments from my childhood: being grounded, in which I was confined inside the house; being sent to my room, again, my movement restricted and my "freedom" (such as a child has, lol) removed; being locked in the cellar.


Just kidding about that last on...just wanted to see if you were actually reading this, lol.

But those were...punishments. And perhaps you never were punished as a child, but for me, I would have much rather have just had the belt than be grounded or sent to my room. You try, like much I have read in your statements, try to make things fit your definition.



Lets get it straight: Eternal puishment. Eternal seaparation from God.

If you do not see how that could cause torment, there is not much I can do about that.



No, you are the one that misunderstands that the torment arises from the punishment.

Danieal 12 speaks of everlasting shame.

Okay, I will get back to this as soon as I can.

God bless.

Just as you never went to the cellar

When I was a single dad, raising a little boy on my own, I never had to hit him. I had an imaginary "ugly stick" "kept" in a kitchen drawer. I never had to do more than threaten to get it out, or jiggle the drawer handle to have an instant attitude change. There are no human "adults" when comparing us to the Father.

I am not the one advocating eternal torment. I suggest you read some of the posts from the tormentalist on this thread. Nor do I think God is limited to simple punishments when He is capable of more alchemical means---Again, we are talking about power without limit.

Limiting that power seems to be a very human past time. My main contention on this point is that there seems to be no shortage of volunteers to gather kindling in hopes of a bonfire, without consideration of the parable symbolism, or the knowledge that Justice and Mercy are on opposite ends of a spectrum, because of some late writings.

One early Christian creation myth has the god of Justice being created from his own afterbirth by wisdom who tried to create without her consort, Love. And that's what justice is, wisdom without love. Mercy is love and wisdom without justice.

 

[Timothew]

Well, so much for getting off of here, lol.


Okay, good...this is more like it. I would ask you if these passages come from personal study or if they are taken from a book?


I will try to be brief, but I am like that composer that when someone played a song but left off the last note...could not sleep. So have mercy, lol, no more for tonight.





I would not be to worried about it: I will be quoting the entirety of your post (though we will see if it tonight, lol, I have been to the mountains and back, after all) in my response, so both would have to be edited.





But what you are missing, my friend, is that it does not say cessation of existance.

Consider:

Destruction is...


684. apoleia ap-o'-li-a from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.


Now lets look at how this word is used to speak of destruction:


Matthew 26:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?



Used in a context where the destruction is not involving cessation of existance.

Acts 8:20

King James Version (KJV)


20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.



Likewise.

Acts 25:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.



Speaks of the destruction of death, and again, scripture is clear man does not cease to exist after physical death. The point: destruction is seen here with no implication of cessation of existance.

What we are going to find, even in the annihilationist's favorite verse, is that the destruction spoken of does not imply cessation of existance. This is actually eisegetically inserted into the text by the individual's desire to see it there.

I went through the bible myself and found these passages supporting Conditional Immortality, I didn't copy them out of a book. (I copied them out of the bible, but I don't think that's what you meant. Even the greek is my own research. I've spent the last 3 years learnign greek and I've read though the NT at least twice in greek.

Look at the examples you used to show that apoleia doesn't mean destroyed. I noticed that you were selective in your examples, but even so, take a look at them. To what purpose is this waste? Remember the jar was broken and the perfume poured out. The money was spent and was gone. This doesn't really support your view that apoleia means "kept around forever to be tormented. The second one supports the view that apoleia doesn't mean be destroy or perish even less. Peter is saying that Simon should perish. Aside from this being my view EXACTLY on what happens to the lost, this verse shows that apoleia means perish. Peter wasn't telling Simon to remain around so Peter could torment him. Peter was saying "Curl up and die and take your money with you."
I don't know how you could possible take your third example and use it to show that apoleia doesn't mean destroy or die. That is precisely what it says. "to deliver any man to die".

These speak of the destruction of death, just as you said. And that is exactly what I am saying happens to those who do not receive eternal life. They go to the second death.

I know that you don't want to accept this, it is different from you have alway thought was true. But I'm not telling you anything strange, I'm just repeating what the bible actually says. I'm not asking you to accept any odd definitions for the words perish, die, destroy, death, destruction or for any other word. These words have meaning, and they mean what they say. In order to accept tormentism, I have to believe that perish, die, destroy, death and destruction don't mean perish, die, destroy, death, and destruction. I have one word for you! Double Talk!

 

[Timothew]

Matthew 8:25

King James Version (KJV)


25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.


Do the disciples mean they are about to cease from existance?

Yes. That is what they mean. They are about to drown to death.

 

[Timothew]

Pilgrim, I'm trying to answer, but it's frustrating. Are you saying that bottles can't be destroyed? Why do you thnk this?

 

[Timothew]

And probably my favorite example:
Matthew 10:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Did the House of Israel, which the disciples were being sent out to minister to, cease to exist in their destruction? If they did, why then was the Lord sending the disciples to minister among them? lol

Okay, I thinkyou might get the picture at this point: annihilation is inserted based upon a poor grasp of the original use of these words. The wicked will be judged, but, there is no implication of annihilation but the opposite is confirmed by that which is explicit in scripture.

And I will leave you with one more in regards to this word:


Matthew 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Continued...

The sheep will perish without Christ, they are lost, and will perish.
I don't know why you resist the truth.
And the bottle objection was particularly funny, "Do they wink out of existence?" No, they have to be destroyed, and if they are destroyed, they are destroyed. Does something have to wink out of existence for it to be destroyed? I think the problem that you are having is that you simply don't want to believe this, so you are throwing up objections. But the objections don't really apply. You say destruction can't mean destruction because bottles are destroyed, and evidently bottles can't be destroyed.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. You don't have to read reverse meaning into the words perish and life. It is contrasted with eternal life. Perish does not mean "Have eternal life in hell being tortured."

 

[P1LGR1M]

I went through the bible myself and found these passages supporting Conditional Immortality, I didn't copy them out of a book. (I copied them out of the bible, but I don't think that's what you meant. Even the greek is my own research. I've spent the last 3 years learnign greek and I've read though the NT at least twice in greek.

Look at the examples you used to show that apoleia doesn't mean destroyed. I noticed that you were selective in your examples, but even so, take a look at them. To what purpose is this waste? Remember the jar was broken and the perfume poured out. The money was spent and was gone. This doesn't really support your view that apoleia means "kept around forever to be tormented. The second one supports the view that apoleia doesn't mean be destroy or perish even less. Peter is saying that Simon should perish. Aside from this being my view EXACTLY on what happens to the lost, this verse shows that apoleia means perish. Peter wasn't telling Simon to remain around so Peter could torment him. Peter was saying "Curl up and die and take your money with you."
I don't know how you could possible take your third example and use it to show that apoleia doesn't mean destroy or die. That is precisely what it says. "to deliver any man to die".

These speak of the destruction of death, just as you said. And that is exactly what I am saying happens to those who do not receive eternal life. They go to the second death.

I know that you don't want to accept this, it is different from you have alway thought was true. But I'm not telling you anything strange, I'm just repeating what the bible actually says. I'm not asking you to accept any odd definitions for the words perish, die, destroy, death, destruction or for any other word. These words have meaning, and they mean what they say. In order to accept tormentism, I have to believe that perish, die, destroy, death and destruction don't mean perish, die, destroy, death, and destruction. I have one word for you! Double Talk!

Okay, responding from my phone, so this will be brief.

You miss probably the easiest part of where you confuse what is being said...physical death is in view. You seem greatly amazed at the third example, do you not see that this has nothing to do with cessation of existence?

And again you incorrectly conclude that it is I trying to make the text something it is not. What I have done is show that annihilation is simply not there.

I will come back to these when I have a better keyboard, lol.

God bless

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yes. That is what they mean. They are about to drown to death.

But there is nothing in view but temporal death.

They speak of perishing, and physically this is the danger, but this does not mean they will cease to exist.

God bless

 

[P1LGR1M]

Pilgrim, I'm trying to answer, but it's frustrating. Are you saying that bottles can't be destroyed? Why do you thnk this?

I hate to say it but these are not "answers," they simply state the same thing you have already asserted.

Again, the bottles are destroyed, there is no question. However, you have yet to submit a single verse where destroyed means annihilation. That's okay though, we are just getting started. I am hoping the next post will help you see this.

God bless

 

[P1LGR1M]

The sheep will perish without Christ, they are lost, and will perish.
I don't know why you resist the truth.
And the bottle objection was particularly funny, "Do they wink out of existence?" No, they have to be destroyed, and if they are destroyed, they are destroyed. Does something have to wink out of existence for it to be destroyed? I think the problem that you are having is that you simply don't want to believe this, so you are throwing up objections. But the objections don't really apply. You say destruction can't mean destruction because bottles are destroyed, and evidently bottles can't be destroyed.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. You don't have to read reverse meaning into the words perish and life. It is contrasted with eternal life. Perish does not mean "Have eternal life in hell being tortured."

Okay, here the "sheep" are in a current state of destruction.

Israel is destroyed

They are about to be witnessed to by the Lord and the disciples.

How then are they annihilated?

Are you saying this word is not saying what it means? Lol

When the wicked are destroyed in Hell, they will be as conscious as those witnessed to by the Lord and the disciples.

This is why the Lord, in Matthew 10:28 says men can kill the body but God can destroy in hell.

God bless

 

[strangertoo]

Okay, here the "sheep" are in a current state of destruction.

Jesus was 'destroyed' ['apoleia' in Greek] ... crucifixion is described as destruction in scripture ... but Jesus showed us that resurrection to a physical body after destruction in death is real :-

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Israel is destroyed

Jesus and his disciples are all of Israel and all clearly survive destruction[ by means of their spirit , which is of God, indestrctible]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

They are about to be witnessed to by the Lord and the disciples.

the Lord and the disciples are of Israel !

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

How then are they annihilated?

clearly no-one can be 'annihilated' for there is but ONE spirit and God gives of His ONE spirit to every man ... one cannot annihilate God ... man is made in God's image, not in our image of man, God's image is spirit which we know by Love, ONE-ness ... it is religion that is divided, not God ... sadly [or not], the sripture of god has been in the hands of religion for thousands of years and we know conclusively it has been both edited and mistranslated many times...

When the wicked are destroyed in Hell, they will be as conscious as those witnessed to by the Lord and the disciples.

Jesus says all are released from hell -Rev 20:13 - so clearly you have misunderstood some words ... but more surprisingly you believe the dead are conscious... so what do you think of cremation, that it is the fires of hell, punishment ?

This is why the Lord, in Matthew 10:28 says men can kill the body but God can destroy in hell.

the distinction made in Matt 10:28 is between murder of saints [who will be resurrected and translated free of death at Jesus' return ] and the death of sinners in the end of this earth , destruction of the body and end of the soul [physical life] in destruction of this earth and heavens ... if one reads it more carefully there is no mention of the spirit which returns to God , by means of which the soul of all sinners is resurrected [Rev 20:13] in the new earth kingdom come of Jesus Christ ...

we can be SURE of this many ways, but perhaps easiest to show here is that FEW find the way now and the MANY are DESTROYED [Matt 7:13-14]... yet later countless MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] over a thousand years later :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
...
13 death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

most men are sinners in this life, yet here is the later salvation of countless many sinners [Rev 7:9-10] AFTER death, not grace, frees them from sin [Rom 6:7] , saved by works, not the grace which saves the firstborn few in this life who are to be only the kings and priests of the kingdom, who build it for a thousand years whilst the many sleep in death...

it is time then to reconsider if there is any Truth in the assertions of mass religion which demonstrably has NOT maintained the scriptures in their ORIGINAL state... the scripture largely speaks AGAINST the dogmas of mass religion of sinners and claims that only saints KNOW God...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 3:6 ... whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
and that wicked one toucheth him not

 

[Timothew]

I hate to say it but these are not "answers," they simply state the same thing you have already asserted.

Again, the bottles are destroyed, there is no question. However, you have yet to submit a single verse where destroyed means annihilation. That's okay though, we are just getting started. I am hoping the next post will help you see this.

God bless

The bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If you can't accept that this means the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. How else would the bible indicate this? How much clearer could it get? If you claim that being destroyed and being "no more", means that the person is not destroyed ("they will be as conscious...") and will continue to exist ("this does not mean they will cease to exist") then you are simply refusing to understand the plain meaning of what the bible says.

When you accept that destroy actually means destroy, and "the wicked will be no more" means that the wicked will cease to exist, then we can continue the discussion. Until then, I will leave you to your own beliefs.
If words don't have any meaning, then discussion is useless.