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LionofJudahDK

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Then a miracle, by definition, cannot happen. If a miracle is an impossible thing that happens, then we can rest assured that it hasn't ever, and won't ever, happen.

Please note that I said: "Cannot happen naturally". It can, however, happen by supernatural intervention. Of course, if one's worldview is a closed system that has a priori ruled out the supernatural, then that's a different story. But doing so is not logical at all

Maybe, but we can't verify that.

We have stronger evidence of the existence, the death, and the Ressurection of Christ, than of any other historical event.
In short: We can be more sure that THAT happened, than that Julius Caesar lived.

If you want to cite the resurrection's many eye-witnesses as evidence, you need to actually cite those witnesses. One account that says "I saw it, and so did many other people, honest!" doesn't quite cut it.

Four accounts, eye-witnesses referring readers to other eye-witnesses who can confirm the story, etc?
Again: Of course, if you have alraedy decided that you WILL NOT accept it, no amount of pointing to the facts (that the Ressurection is one of the best witnessed events in history) can change your mind.
 
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AlexBP

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well I do, I hear people saying things like 'life is a miracle', 'every birth is a miracle' and things like the chilean miners getting saved are miracles. Some getting pulled from the rubble in an earthquake is a miracle.

I don't know what definition they are using, but it sure sounds different to yours.
Modern, western, scientific men have an obsession with defining, categorizing, boxing in, and limiting everything. By contrast, wise men and women from the ancient traditions in both western and other civilizations have always understood the limitations of such an approach. Certainly definitions and categorizations have their utility in certain situations, but if taken to extremes and used in the wrong ways, they become barriers to true understanding.

What is a miracle? A miracle is an action of God. Since God's abilities and the scope of His actions are vastly greater than what any human being can understand, it's hopeless to try boxing in miracles with a definition and categorization scheme that would let us decide exactly what is a miracle or what isn't. In Biblical times, people recognized extraordinary events such as the parting of the Red Sea or the Resurrection as miracles, but that didn't mean they were ruling out the presence of the miraculous in everyday occurrences. They recognized that all of existence is miraculous. The mere fact that anything exists at all has no explanation apart from God. To see a flower blooming or a stream flowing is really as miraculous as seeing the Resurrection or the parting of the Red Sea.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Please note that I said: "Cannot happen naturally". It can, however, happen by supernatural intervention. Of course, if one's worldview is a closed system that has a priori ruled out the supernatural, then that's a different story. But doing so is not logical at all
That's good, because I don't. What, however, is your definition of 'natural' and 'supernatural', that we may continue this discussion of miracles?

We have stronger evidence of the existence, the death, and the Ressurection of Christ, than of any other historical event.
Err... really? You have more evidence for the resurrection of Christ than any event in history I care to mention?

What about 9/11? Or the life of Charles Darwin?

In short: We can be more sure that THAT happened, than that Julius Caesar lived.
Perhaps, but I'm still waiting for these many eye-witnesses.

Four accounts, eye-witnesses referring readers to other eye-witnesses who can confirm the story, etc?
Indeed. So we have four accounts, referring to other eye-witnesses. Where, then, are these other eye-witnesses?

Again: Of course, if you have alraedy decided that you WILL NOT accept it, no amount of pointing to the facts (that the Ressurection is one of the best witnessed events in history) can change your mind.
And since my mind is not closed, your precautions are moot.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Modern, western, scientific men have an obsession with defining, categorizing, boxing in, and limiting everything. By contrast, wise men and women from the ancient traditions in both western and other civilizations have always understood the limitations of such an approach. Certainly definitions and categorizations have their utility in certain situations, but if taken to extremes and used in the wrong ways, they become barriers to true understanding.

What is a miracle? A miracle is an action of God. Since God's abilities and the scope of His actions are vastly greater than what any human being can understand, it's hopeless to try boxing in miracles with a definition and categorization scheme that would let us decide exactly what is a miracle or what isn't.
But you did exactly that - you just defined a miracle as an action of God. No ifs, no buts, not vagaries, no ambiguities. You did exactly what you lambasted scientists for doing - "defining, categorizing, boxing in". Personally I don't see any flaw in this - if you want to claim that miracles occur, it's not a bad thing to ask, "What is a miracle?".

In Biblical times, people recognized extraordinary events such as the parting of the Red Sea or the Resurrection as miracles, but that didn't mean they were ruling out the presence of the miraculous in everyday occurrences. They recognized that all of existence is miraculous. The mere fact that anything exists at all has no explanation apart from God. To see a flower blooming or a stream flowing is really as miraculous as seeing the Resurrection or the parting of the Red Sea.
Then we have your prescriptive and descriptive definitions of what constitutes a miracle - "An act of God", and, "Everything".

There. A neat and tidy box into which we can slot the word 'miracle'.
 
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AlexBP

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Then we have your prescriptive and descriptive definitions of what constitutes a miracle - "An act of God", and, "Everything".

There. A neat and tidy box into which we can slot the word 'miracle'.
But I said clearly that I was not opposed to definitions or categorizations, only to those which improperly limit our understanding.
 
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Resha Caner

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What, however, is your definition of 'natural' and 'supernatural', that we may continue this discussion of miracles?

I don't know how Lion would define these things, but did you happen to follow the other recent thread on this?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7686874/

Additionally, my definition of miracle, though in step with C.S. Lewis, doesn't seem to be the one typically used at CF ... which is the case for a lot of the terms that are used here.
 
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mathclub

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Modern, western, scientific men have an obsession with defining, categorizing, boxing in, and limiting everything. By contrast, wise men and women from the ancient traditions in both western and other civilizations have always understood the limitations of such an approach. Certainly definitions and categorizations have their utility in certain situations, but if taken to extremes and used in the wrong ways, they become barriers to true understanding.

What is a miracle? A miracle is an action of God. Since God's abilities and the scope of His actions are vastly greater than what any human being can understand, it's hopeless to try boxing in miracles with a definition and categorization scheme that would let us decide exactly what is a miracle or what isn't. In Biblical times, people recognized extraordinary events such as the parting of the Red Sea or the Resurrection as miracles, but that didn't mean they were ruling out the presence of the miraculous in everyday occurrences. They recognized that all of existence is miraculous. The mere fact that anything exists at all has no explanation apart from God. To see a flower blooming or a stream flowing is really as miraculous as seeing the Resurrection or the parting of the Red Sea.

lol, i'd just love to know the 'limitations' of clearly defining words so we both know what we are talking about. How on earth can you ever discuss anything if you don't want to define anything?? One of the more ridiculous notions I've heard in a long time. If you don't want to have a conversation where anything is defined, then I don't see the point.

And then, as already pointed out, you proceed to define it anyway. lol.

And then you contradict an earlier post, by claiming that something as mundane as a flower blooming is miraculous.

I don't undertand what people mean by miracles, and I'm trying to ask you to explain it to me. Is that really that hard?

So a flower blooming is now a miracle to you. So is the growth of any plant a miracle, or just the pretty ones? And if the growth of plants is a miracle, is the birth of any animal a miracle too?

sounds like miracles are actually just mundane, everyday occurances.

Nice argument from ignorance that I bolded too. brilliant
 
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Wiccan_Child

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But I said clearly that I was not opposed to definitions or categorizations, only to those which improperly limit our understanding.
The implication was that pursuing a definition of 'miracle' is one of those - otherwise, why mention it? That said, I can't think of anything that would fit the bill, so I'm at a loss all round.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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KCfromNC

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Modern, western, scientific men have an obsession with defining, categorizing, boxing in, and limiting everything. By contrast, wise men and women from the ancient traditions in both western and other civilizations have always understood the limitations of such an approach. Certainly definitions and categorizations have their utility in certain situations, but if taken to extremes and used in the wrong ways, they become barriers to true understanding.

Can you give an example of a case where this ancient tradition produces better understanding of an event or thing?

The mere fact that anything exists at all has no explanation apart from God.

God(s) aren't an explanation for anything. They're just a convenient label for "I don't know and I've given up on looking".
 
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Resha Caner

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Ooo, how did I miss this ;)

Hmm. I could take that several different ways.

What's your definition?

Most people use Hume's definition that a miracle is a violation of physical law, but Lewis' definition is that a miracle is an interference in the physical world. I think that is an important distinction. It means that God doesn't reserve some right to do whatever he pleases - to behave according to whatever whim grabs his fancy in the moment, as if he had some bad tea one morning and in his grumpiness decided to wipe out Pharoh and his army. Rather (however one wants to view physical "law" - as a necessary expression of his nature, as something he invented, etc.) God makes a promise to interact with us in a specific way and he keeps that promise.

I think it is important to note that this idea is Biblical (Psalm 33:4), and it is an idea that extends beyond miracles to the promise of salvation, the problem of evil, etc.

It also explains why unbelievers can easily dismiss miracles - they will always have an explanation in physical law. I'm not saying that to give myself an excuse. Rather, I say it to acknowledge the challenge of discussing miracles.

It also means that God must be "outside" in some manner. If God were merely part of the material world, then any action he would take (no matter how powerful) would be a consequence of physical law rather than an interference in the physical world. And this is where the conversation starts to diverge - where AlexBP's comments on definition become important. It's where I repeat the same thing I've said many times.

The traditional Scolastic/Thomist approach is to next ask for definitions of God, definitions of material/immaterial. That's fine. I'm willing to play that game. But I want to know what the objective of my counterpart is in taking this approach. Is it to see how far philosophy can go, what it reveals, what it can claim, what questions it raises? That can be an interesting discussion. I enjoy it and I think such a discussion has benefits (see note*).

Or is it to find a flaw in my theology? Not gonna happen because this isn't the basis of my theology. Is it to better understand why I believe in miracles? Again, not gonna happen because this isn't my basis. I think this is what AlexBP is trying to say. If you're curious about why I believe in miracles, you need to ask different questions.

*Note: I think this approach has one fatal flaw - an issue I've raised several times that is a tautological-type dilemma for both sides. Earlier I used a door as an example. Suppose there is someone who believes a door can be closed (which equates to believing in the material), but doesn't believe it can be open (which equates to not believing in the immaterial). If we successfully agree on a definition of "closed", by default the unbeliever is forced to accept that anything that isn't "closed" is "open". IOW, by the mere acceptance of a definition, a strong possibility for the alternative is admitted. As such, I don't think the argument over the definition will ever end.

- - -

[edit] I forgot to add that we need to separate out some colloquial uses of the word "miracle" that AlexBP and quatona alluded to. Some people use "miracle" to mean something that was pleasantly unexpected, or something that happened which is beyond their understanding or beyond their ability. I don't think that is what the OP intended to discuss.
 
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brightlights

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If a man is pulled from the rubble 3 days after a terrible earthquake it is often quickly proclaimed a miracle of God he survived.

Does that mean that the reverse is true, and all those who were not as fortunate are cursed by God?

The Bible would say yes. Humanity is cursed by God and the earth does not wish to bear us. Creation rebels against us since we rebel against God.

Also, wouldn't the earthquake have ultimately been caused/allowed to happen by god in the first place?

Yes.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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The Bible would say yes. Humanity is cursed by God and the earth does not wish to bear us. Creation rebels against us since we rebel against God.



Yes.
So, God is the most malicious entity in existence, inflicting all manner of natural disasters of innocent (yes, innocent) people?
 
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Wiccan_Child said:
So, God is the most malicious entity in existence, inflicting all manner of natural disasters of innocent (yes, innocent) people?

Yup.

Catholic rationalization for why original sin doesn't violate the whole "kids shouldn't suffer for their father's sins" is amazingly silly.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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No. God does not curse the innocent.
Yet your claim is that God cursed the entirety of humanity, which includes the innocent as well as the guilty. The starving toddler in Africa is innocent, yet she suffers horribly from natural causes - famine, drought, disease, etc. The child dashed on the rocks after a tsunami also suffers horribly from a natural disaster. Why would God inflict such suffering onto the innocent?
 
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