Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[strangertoo]

Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

again that exact same Satanic mistranslation by sinners :-

Rev 14:11 YLT and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

but again one does not have to guess which is true, TIME is created , begins and ends with the space-time universe , so cannot be 'for ever' :-

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
...
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

It's funny that you say we cannot trust Gods word because it was handled by sinners, but apparently it's accurate enough for you to prove *your* doctrine. The fact is that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and God has preserved His word for us.

It's not strange at all my friend, Satan has a task of deluding the whole world before Jesus returns , getting ALL men to worship him as a man in place of Christ and God by claiming to be them , God with us, the final antichrist , and he would succeed [Rev 13:3-4] except Jesus comes back EARLY to save the last few wearied saints from caving in to popular united religion of the then world ruler [established in power for a full three and a half years before his death for blasphemy -2Thess 2:4, Ezek 28, at the return of Jesus to take the few saints in translation [after resurrecteing all dead saints to join the very few still alive]

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

So one can rely on mass religion being FALSE in fact, because it must be so according to Jesus' revelation ... [some even reject Jesus' witness already , in preference for religious 'tradition' of sinners !]

but surely you can see that Satan had to alter scripture... and indeed do so differently for different groups to FIRST DIVIDE religion so that he could later unite it all to believe his greater lie, that he is God ... it's an ancient proven evil technique of power-mongers , and it works ... but then fails at Jesus' return because God PROVES Satan is no god by justly having him involuntarily killed, Satan cannot save himself from death as a man. so is no god [Ezek 28]

as for the Holy spirit, God cannot baptise anyone who listens to Satan still and sins in obedience to Satan... spirit baptism is given freely, but only those who CHOOSE to stop sinning and obey God instead, to love ,not abuse with sin, CAN hear God, have 'ears to hear' ... God cannot MAKE anyone stop sinning, Love is not Love unless FREELY chosen...

so indeed FEW [Matt 7:14] find the way of choosing Love in THIS life to receive all truth from God and entrance to the kingdom at it's inception in the new earth [for a thousand years without Satan or any sinner whilst they are 'queued up in death and the FEW build up the kingdom come to later be able to handle BILLIONS later saved by the righteousness of the kingdom and the fact that any sin whatsoever there is met with a second death ... death is still the wages of sin, and still frees a man from sin , even a second time... but there is no third death :-

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

again, this shows that there is life after the second death, freed ofsin, for the final baptism of fire in the lake of fire :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

You are also quite mistaken about your interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

When it says He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe, there must be something pertaining to those who believe that makes them different from "all men".

indeed there is a difference , those few that find the way, believe NOW in this earth, perfect their Love in life now, the firstborn few saints [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14] are to be the ones who build the kingdom come for a thousand years, the rest of the dead do not live again [Rev 20:13] until the thousand years are up :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

the first FEW are the king-priests [1Pet 2:9-10, Exodus 19:6, Rev 7:3-8] seal by spirit baptism , saved from past sins by grace of the new covenant with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Jer 31:31-34] because they stop sinning and obey Jesus, Love NOW , whilst sinners continue to sin all their lives in mass religion under Satan... culminating in Rev 13:3-4 where the whole earth is against the very few saints left alive by then...

the many are to be the 'congregation' in the kingdom, BILLIONS , all men that ever lived and died sinners in this earth ... the few that believe now will rule them as kings and minister to them as priests... Jesus will rule them all as king of these kings and high priest of this immortal order of priests , the order of Melchizedek ['Melchisedec' in NT trasliteration ]

If Jesus takes everyone to Heaven, how is this especially true for believers? This is nonsense. It is saying He is the Saviour of all men in the sense that He has made a way of salvation for all men, and that He shows no partiality between persons; salvation is available for all people, if they accept Jesus into their life. Not in the sense that they are all saved now, or ever will be.

You have simply misunderstood by learning from sinners instead of waiting for God to teach His 100% pure Truth in spirit baptism ...two ways back, the best is obviously to stop sinning and wait for spirit baptism to give you the ONE Truth of God... the other just is a waste of time because you NEED spirit baptism to get into the kingdom come... but if you must continue as a sinner [and most will all the way to death] , then I hope I have explained your mistakes well enough to show you at least that you need to study EVERY word of God before even beginning to think about deciding what to believe in... again, almost all do NOT, and almost all are deluded , deceived - Rev 13:3-4 :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

that I think must be one of the most painful lines in scripture for you, so i hope I helped you understand it a little better... God really does NOT need more than the 144,000 saints now who believe now in THIS world , in this life ...

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

it seems madness to sinners ,why should God not want as many as possible, why did Jesus never start a mass religion and become king of THIS world?

the answers are in scripture [albeit one must be wary that Satan messes with it] and of course God will explain them to anyone who stops sinning to obey Him...

but simple Maths shows why 144,000 saints now ... one man can work abd save 144,000 ... 144,000 can save 20 billion ... that is comparable to every man that ever lived... so 144,000 is about optimal for God's power Plan...

Oh yes , and you wanted to know something else , and I've forgotten what it is... next time maybe ?

 

[Timothew]

Are you intentionally being deceptive, Tim?

If I am wrong about what I believe in the Bible, I would appreciate being shown that I am wrong. But posts like this one do not really add to the discussion. If you twist my words around to make it appear that I am wrong, then you aren't really helping me or anyone else. You might be able to convince others that you are correct, but that doesn't help them, unless you are actually correct. And if you have to resort to tricks to make it appear that you are correct, you probably are not.

I'm really trying to say all of this in a nice way, taking Mr. Strangertoo's advice, but I realize that some of it is hard to accept. I think that it has to be said though. It is difficult to say hard things without appearing to be putting down the other person.

 

[LutheranMafia]

If I am wrong about what I believe in the Bible, I would appreciate being shown that I am wrong. But posts like this one do not really add to the discussion. If you twist my words around to make it appear that I am wrong, then you aren't really helping me or anyone else. You might be able to convince others that you are correct, but that doesn't help them, unless you are actually correct. And if you have to resort to tricks to make it appear that you are correct, you probably are not.

I'm really trying to say all of this in a nice way, taking Mr. Strangertoo's advice, but I realize that some of it is hard to accept. I think that it has to be said though. It is difficult to say hard things without appearing to be putting down the other person.

How can we have a reasonable debate if you deny major elements of your own argument that you have stated many times in the past and continue to state even as you deny it in the very same message yesterday?

You have clearly an unequivically equated the word soul with the word life. You did again in the very same post where you denied this yesterday. I'm not sure where to go in a debate where the opponent is say opposing things at the same time that are directly contradictory to each other.

 

[Timothew]

How can we have a reasonable debate if you deny major elements of your own argument that you have stated many times in the past and continue to state even as you deny it in the very same message yesterday?

You have clearly an unequivically equated the word soul with the word life. You did again in the very same post where you denied this yesterday. I'm not sure where to go in a debate where the opponent is say opposing things at the same time that are directly contradictory to each other.

You are not correct. You didn't understand my post.
I said "we are souls". I've been trying to get you to understand that, but you refuse to attempt to understand. Perhaps you are afraid that if you begin to understand, you will have to lose a cherished doctrine?

 

[LutheranMafia]

You are not correct. You didn't understand my post.
I said "we are souls". I've been trying to get you to understand that, but you refuse to attempt to understand. Perhaps you are afraid that if you begin to understand, you will have to lose a cherished doctrine?

Your explanations are virtually all one liners, frequently just three words like this one ("we are souls"). On top of that you frequently use redundant self-referential definitions, making a definition using the word (or a close variant) that you are supposedly defining, like saying "death means you're dead".

This is not only the ultimate cardinal sin for dictionary writers, it is also a cardinal sin in science and journalism. Even small children know that if you define a word with the word itself, they are going to get that answer marked wrong. Yet this practice which even small children know to be invalid, you somehow consider to be a perfectly valid explanation that you seem to think covers all the bases.

It seems to me that you are being intentionally evasive, because I do not believe that you are an idiot. I think that you are brilliant, a fascinating and worthy opponent. But it is an endless cat and mouse game. Any description that anyone else makes about your views, you adamantly deny, unless it is limited strictly to the three or four word redundant self-referential definitions that you use.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Another thing to think about, for a long time I have suspected He-man of being either a web-bot, or a person using a very intentional propaganda methodology, not unlike military psy-ops. When DrBL posted a message quoting the CF anti-spam rule, suddenly He-man disappeared. When he realized that he couldn't use the same propaganda technique that he has been using for years without being reported by a lot of people, he suddenly and abruptly left.

The thing that really gets me is that for a long time I just thought he was a nut-case with no social skills, but then just last week he proved me completely wrong. Instead of his usual posts quoting at length a mish-mash of out-of-date theologians from a century or more ago, he actually made an entire 3 paragraph post that was all original text. To me that outed him, clearly he is capable of interacting like a normal human being, and this web-bot like persona that he has kept up for years is not the real He-man.

 

[doc8645]

Strangertoo;
As you have stated: " ....death is still the wages of sin, and still frees a man from sin, even a second time.....but there is no third death". Have to disagree again as death doesn't "free" them from sin, as "their worm does not die", in which sin dies with them, and as you yourself stated there is no third death.

And your theory on all being re-united together forever (although great to imagine) is problematic with regards Rev. 20:15 "and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". And what was the lake of fire? Rev.21:8 ".......shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimestone; which is the second death". So although you mention 'mistranslations' in this instance no matter if you subscribe to codex vaticanus, codex sinaiaticus, or codex receptus, the outcome is still the same.

doc8645

 

[SilenceInMotion]

"their worm does not die"

The worm is Satan. 'Worm' is an archaic word for someone who was grossly evil and adversarial.

 

[doc8645]

Silenceinmotion:

OK, sure, dosen't really matter, I was told once that it was a metophor because it meant crimson grub (sins as scarlet or crimson), but looking thru Youngs and Strongs it just says grub, maggot, or earthworm, but I think yours would fit too.

doc8645

 

[strangertoo]

If I am wrong about what I believe in the Bible, I would appreciate being shown that I am wrong. But posts like this one do not really add to the discussion. If you twist my words around to make it appear that I am wrong, then you aren't really helping me or anyone else. You might be able to convince others that you are correct, but that doesn't help them, unless you are actually correct. And if you have to resort to tricks to make it appear that you are correct, you probably are not.

I'm really trying to say all of this in a nice way, taking Mr. Strangertoo's advice, but I realize that some of it is hard to accept. I think that it has to be said though. It is difficult to say hard things without appearing to be putting down the other person.

I think that it's best to look upon discussion as co-operative seeking of the
original Truth now partly concealed in scripture,,, no-one even can be 100% sure of the Truth of God until spirit baptism, after facing the shame of one's sin and ceasing from it ... but that is personal, one-on-one with God, not a great deal of help here... but in fact should eventually teach all folks that God WILL do all the teaching of all folks Himself [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11, Joel 2:28] ...so we have no cause to argue ...rather let us talk in the spirit of God's Truth, Loving one another, lest we fail to please God by obeying His command and so wait longer to know from Him ...

 

[meganmocha123]

Someone once brought up an interesting point to me that I can definitely see... How could an all-loving father send people to hell? While I don't necessarily agree with this standpoint, I think it a valid point. Other than that I'm not really sure the reasons for why people don't believe in hell but I think it probably has something to do somewhat along those lines.

 

[timbo3]

Before the perfect man Adam rebelled in the Garden of Eden by intentionally eating of the fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" (Gen 3:6), what did God prescribe as his punishment ? Genesis 2:17 says that "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Following Adam's intentional act of disobedience, what did Jehovah God now say ? That he would now burn forever in a "hellfire" ? At Genesis 3:19, God tells Adam (and Eve): "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Adam did not exist before his creation from the "dust" or ground. Hence, upon his death, he would not be sent to a "hellfire", but return to the same state of non-existence.

At Ecclesiastes 9:5, king Solomon was inspired to write: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." Furthermore, Psalms 115:17 says that "the dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence." How can the dead be tormented since they are "conscious of nothing at all " and go "down into silence" ?

Because of Jesus association of fire with the Greek word Gehenna, which the King James Bible has rendered as both "hell" and "hellfire", this leaves the wrong impression that bad people go to "hell" to be tormented by fire. Jesus was not teaching this, but rather was telling his audience that anyone who receives the judgment of Gehenna from Jehovah God are dead forever, with no hope of a resurrection or a "standing up " to life again.("resurrection", Greek a·na´sta·sis, meaning "raising up; standing up")

The churches have promoted the belief in a "hellfire", creating a morbid fear of God rather than love. And interestingly, these also teach that Satan is the one "running" it. A careful examination notes a serious flaw in this belief, for Satan is God's archenemy. If God sends people to a fiery hell to be tormented by the Devil, would that not imply a level of cooperation between God and Satan ?

To illustrate, let's say a man has a son, but this son becomes rebellious, doing a lot of bad things. Though the father tried to provide loving correction, the son remains bad. The father now feels that he has to punish him. But what if the father found out that an evil man had been influencing his son to do evil things, would the father now turn to evil man to ask him to punish his son ?

Then, does it make sense that God would ask Satan the Devil - the very one who influences wicked people - to punish these same people ? For that matter, if God wanted the wicked to be punished, why would the Devil - God's archenemy - comply with God's wishes and torment them ?

Thus, the Bible says that wicked people are not tormented but are "cut off ", for Psalms 37:9 says: "For evildoers themselves will be cut off ("cut off ", Hebrew karath), but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth."

 

[strangertoo]

Strangertoo;
As you have stated: " ....death is still the wages of sin, and still frees a man from sin, even a second time.....but there is no third death". Have to disagree again as death doesn't "free" them from sin, as "their worm does not die", in which sin dies with them, and as you yourself stated there is no third death.

Understand that mankind is created in God's image, immortal spirit... that is the essence of a man , the spirit is all that survives destruction of a man ,because it is not physical, not subject to destruction any more than God is... thus in the end , after from one to three lives , the spirit has nowhere else to be except with God , there is nowhere else to be at the end of creations and they all end because they are physical... and salvation is simply translation to be spirit, no flesh... but God makes a rule , time is re-created until all flesh learns to Love with no more abuse, all folks happy together as ONE , just as the spirit is ONE ... as in the heavens, so on earth before the end [but mankind destroys the first earth through sin, capitalism, false [now-divided]religion, politics...]

so after the second death we know all will be translated to the spirit after baptism of fire [perfection of Love in LIFE] in the lake of fire... and their worm never dies because they are translated , after which it is not their worm , is it ? ...worms do not dwell in spirit but in bodies ... and as Jesus says there is an end and he is both the beginning and end... so there is no infinity of time , on can prove that many ways , no cause to doubt it...

And your theory

it is neither a theory, nor is it originating as mine , so please do not label it as such]

on all being re-united together forever (although great to imagine)

You might dwell more on why that is and realise something about the God of Love

is problematic with regards Rev. 20:15 "and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

I see no problem... the bible clearly shows men are progressively saved in stages , written into the book of immortal 'life' in batches... where is the problem ????

And what was the lake of fire? Rev.21:8 ".......shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimestone; which is the second death".

men are freed from sin by the first death , and thus many more than the frirst few are later saved because they take this second [for many, first for some] opportunity to Love ad be translated ... those who sin in the kingdom are in need of a second death to free them yet again from sin , plus it gets them out of the way until the countless many are saved [Rev 7:9-10] at judgement day ... by then all have been baptised of the spirit, and the last one's only need baptism of fire to become ready for translation... it is exactly the same as what John the baptist described as the way to salvation :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

don't see your problem with this ...

So although you mention 'mistranslations' in this instance no matter if you subscribe to codex vaticanus, codex sinaiaticus, or codex receptus, the outcome is still the same.

Go back a little further to the SOURCE material ... all the supposed 'copies' of all scrolls/ books of the bible DIFFER....ABSOLUTE PROOF that it has been edited ... one cannot undo this ...

then look at the diversity of translations into English... MAJOR differences in what they say ... at most one COULD be true , maybe NONE ... that means almost all bibles are faked in translation and it is CERTAIN that they are...

now look at the supposed 'canon' of any biblical religious group... look at their bible ,it mentions over twenty books/scrolls NOT in their bible, showing they are LYING about their canon ... but if they are LYING the they are not of Jesus and God, but of Satan...

now look at divided religion and consider how much of that MUST be of Satan because it is not united by spirit baptism [else it would agree]

I don't think your argument holds then... do you see?

the answer , as always, stop sinning and Jesus and the new covenant both promise that God will teach one ALL Truth for sure , 100% pure, unadulterated, absolute truth of God from God DIRECT ... personal , perfect... and indeed without it there is no entry to the kingdom come...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[notice that Jesus does not say one needs baptism of fire to enter the kingdom... that is because one doesn't,,, countless many are trialled AFTER death in teh kingdom to be saved there]

 

[Senecharnix]

Someone once brought up an interesting point to me that I can definitely see... How could an all-loving father send people to hell? While I don't necessarily agree with this standpoint, I think it a valid point. Other than that I'm not really sure the reasons for why people don't believe in hell but I think it probably has something to do somewhat along those lines.

Maybe He does not send anyone to Hell. Perhaps, people send themselves to such through bad choices and attitudes. The truth is that most people are the Devil's children. He holds onto them. God holds onto His own children and spares them from Hell. If someone is His child, he or she will generally make good choices and cultivate a good attitude--be righteous, or at least, strive to become righteous....

 

[Soulgazer]

Maybe He does not send anyone to Hell. Perhaps, people send themselves to such through bad choices and attitudes. The truth is that most people are the Devil's children. He holds onto them. God holds onto His own children and spares them from Hell. If someone is His child, he or she will generally make good choices and cultivate a good attitude--be righteous, or at least, strive to become righteous....

Yep...despite the annoying mustard text, I think you have it.

Now, I don't necessarily believe in hell, but I think that the people who do will be granted it so they won't be disappointed. Heaven is NOT disappointing, eh?

 

[Senecharnix]

Yep...despite the annoying mustard text, I think you have it.

Now, I don't necessarily believe in hell, but I think that the people who do will be granted it so they won't be disappointed. Heaven is NOT disappointing, eh?

It won't be disappointing, especially if one likes nature's beauty....

Is this a tastier color?...

 

[Soulgazer]

It won't be disappointing, especially if one likes nature's beauty....

Is this a tastier color?...

Easier to read....I had to highlight the mustard

 

[Soulgazer]

I believe you will receive your hearts desire. If it's to see those "sinners" burn in torment, you'll see it----until it appalls you that you ever thought it would be a good thing. Of course some might be stuck there for a while---some people have a higher toleration for "appalling" than others.

 

[Senecharnix]

Easier to read....I had to highlight the mustard

For whatever reason, the mustard is much easier for me to read and the only color that does not cause my eyes to get tired. Oh well....

 

[Senecharnix]

I believe you will receive your hearts desire. If it's to see those "sinners" burn in torment, you'll see it----until it appalls you that you ever thought it would be a good thing. Of course some might be stuck there for a while---some people have a higher toleration for "appalling" than others.

Many folks seem to be gluttons for apalling hence the popularity of so-called reality shows, infomercials, and talent shows....