Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[DrBubbaLove]

It has been stated any talk of a human soul/spirit in the Bible is simply a reference to breath and that if one is breathing then one has a spirit/soul and when one stops breathing, that soul, our breath leaves us at death and we are then "just dead".

"Just dead" is in this construct is no different than "perished" and the only difference between all of us "perishing" when we die (because we stop breathing - loss of spirit/soul) and the damned "perishing" is that God never recreates a copy of the damned again (though He certainly could, just doesn't).

As all our "breath" or "breathing" is identical (identical with animals as well) there can be no distinguishing individuals by our "breath". Which means a human "soul" in this construct is meaningless in regards to be a unique part of the nature of an individual. The only thing then which can distinguish an individual is the physical material that makes us up and how it is all wired together.

If that were all true, an exact copy of one of us that is wired exactly the same way, would essentially be the SAME individual, indistinguishable from the original with two big exceptions. The duplicate would not have actually have experienced the life of the original and from the moment the duplicate is created, the lives of the duplicate and the original would divurge

Which all goes to why people keep pointing out that talk of an afterlife in this construct virtually meaningless. After we die the individual is no more, they have "persished", they are "just dead". The state of those who are "just dead is very much the same as the state of the copies God is said to recreate of the damned when they "perish" again after Judgment, once again "just dead". Which is also why some have suggested this view has ALL OF US going to Hell initially since that entails being "just dead" and will be the final state of the damned in this construct.

 

[LutheranMafia]

"Just dead" is in this construct is no different than "perished" and the only difference between all of us "perishing" when we die (because we stop breathing - loss of spirit/soul) and the damned "perishing" is that God never recreates a copy of the damned again (though He certainly could, just doesn't).

[...]

Which is also why some have suggested this view has ALL OF US going to Hell initially since that entails being "just dead" and will be the final state of the damned in this construct.

Excellent point! The "temporary" (for thousands of years) state of the saved is exactly the same as the eternal state of the damned, in Tim's theology.

 

[thesunisout]

32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Those who do such things deserve death. Not eternal torture in hell-land.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

It is talking about the second death:

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

 

[LutheranMafia]

I am not defining soul as merely a synonym for life.

You have repeatedly over the years defined soul as meaning nothing more than life, and you did so again in this very message where you supposedly deny it:

When the Titanic sank there were 1300 souls on board.

Of the 2,200 souls who were aboard the once mighty ship 868 were saved, and are en route to Boston of New York.
​

Are you intentionally being deceptive, Tim?

It is one thing to be deceptive about the views of others, that is called a strawman argument and it is common, but it is quite something else to be deceptive about one's own argument?

 

[strangertoo]

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

It is talking about the second death:

both deaths are the end of physical life , when the spirit returns to God , and both are the wages of sin for the simple reason that death removes sin -Rom 6:7

and God removes sin so that men can start again without sin to see if they won't TRY Love and see by FREE CHOICE of Love that Love is better than any other way of physical LIFE...

it is that simple, God in enduring mercy keeps giving men another chance to find out that abuse, sin, is all that lies between them and happiness in life...

it ain't even rocket science, but almost all men get it wrong in this life, sin all their lives , never even know the real God of Love and His Loving Christ Jesus... only fake and desperately poor imitations from mass religions of sinners led by sinners led by Satan..

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

men are denied death after two deaths, so clearly are resurrected to the lake of fire for the final baptism of fire, once more freed of sin by death and having seen Satan fail massively in the new earth kingdom come , unlike his overwhelming 'success' as fake god in this earth [until he involuntarily dies, God's way of showing him he is not a god at all -Ezek 28] -Rev 13:3-4

it is as well to learn from all the scripture, not least that God's mercy extends to ALL generations ... all that is requited of men by God is that they learn Love is a better way eventually and turn to it, as Jesus says they all will ... so who believes him that even through the final baptism of fire men will still come to accept Jesus as king,obey him, Love, not abuse with sin any more ... ?

Revelation 5:13 [YLT] and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, ‘To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might—to the ages of the ages!’

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.[Note, those who believe now are the few [Matt 7:14. Rev 7:3-8] chosen to serve as kings and priests in the later salvation of countless many [Rev 7:9-10] of the many who die now for sin [Matt 7:13]

 

[thesunisout]

both deaths are the end of physical life , when the spirit returns to God , and both are the wages of sin for the simple reason that death removes sin -Rom 6:7

and God removes sin so that men can start again without sin to see if they won't TRY Love and see by FREE CHOICE of Love that Love is better than any other way of physical LIFE...

it is that simple, God in enduring mercy keeps giving men another chance to find out that abuse, sin, is all that lies between them and happiness in life...

it ain't even rocket science, but almost all men get it wrong in this life, sin all their lives , never even know the real God of Love and His Loving Christ Jesus... only fake and desperately poor imitations from mass religions of sinners led by sinners led by Satan..

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


men are denied death after two deaths, so clearly are resurrected to the lake of fire for the final baptism of fire, once more freed of sin by death and having seen Satan fail massively in the new earth kingdom come , unlike his overwhelming 'success' as fake god in this earth [until he involuntarily dies, God's way of showing him he is not a god at all -Ezek 28] -Rev 13:3-4

it is as well to learn from all the scripture, not least that God's mercy extends to ALL generations ... all that is requited of men by God is that they learn Love is a better way eventually and turn to it, as Jesus says they all will ... so who believes him that even through the final baptism of fire men will still come to accept Jesus as king,obey him, Love, not abuse with sin any more ... ?

Revelation 5:13 [YLT] and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, ‘To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might—to the ages of the ages!’

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.[Note, those who believe now are the few [Matt 7:14. Rev 7:3-8] chosen to serve as kings and priests in the later salvation of countless many [Rev 7:9-10] of the many who die now for sin [Matt 7:13]

Your doctrine of God purifying men of their sins and giving them another life is found nowhere in the bible.

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The second death is eternal spiritual death. It is never ending.

Mar_9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Anyone who ends up in the lake of fire is never coming back out again.

 

[Timothew]

You have repeatedly over the years defined soul as meaning nothing more than life, and you did so again in this very message where you supposedly deny it:

Are you intentionally being deceptive, Tim?

It is one thing to be deceptive about the views of others, that is called a strawman argument and it is common, but it is quite something else to be deceptive about one's own argument?

I'm not being deceptive, delberate or otherwise. You are being deliberately provocative. Why would you do this? I believe it is because you will post anything in a futile attempt to discredit me, because you dislike the doctrine I represent.

 

[Timothew]

Excellent point! The "temporary" (for thousands of years) state of the saved is exactly the same as the eternal state of the damned, in Tim's theology.

You misrepresented my opinion, was it deliberate, or did you just not understand my position?

The difference is the final state. The lost do not live forever while the redeemed do live forever.

 

[strangertoo]

Your doctrine of God purifying men of their sins and giving them another life is found nowhere in the bible.

strange that you think that when I learned it from the bible and the God of the bible , and quoted throughout how it is based upon the bible...

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

simply a mistranslation by sinners with an axe to grind , here is the LITERAL translation by Young which makes sense unlike the physically impossible notion of eternal time

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’

The second death is eternal spiritual death.

The bible says no such thing, but says God is the spirit ... God cannot die, the spirit cannot die - because it is of God ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is never ending.

death IS an end, and the spirit is end-less , without end... so you have created an oxymoron which appears nowhere in scripture whilst claiming my words from scripture are not from scripture...

you seem very confused indeed , so I suggest that you read every word of God and see that I have only pointed out what they say , and that what you say is LITERALLY not there except in mistranslated bibles...

Mar_9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Mark 9:47 it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire—
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched

'gehenna' is the Valley of the son of Hinnom outside Jerusalem... and indeed the continual flow of refuse and dead bodies meant that the fire there was never quenched always fed with more to burn, and the worms bred there continually, never dying out because there was always more for them to breed in and grow by eating , continual generations of worms ...

Anyone who ends up in the lake of fire is never coming back out again.

again nothing in scripture says this , even if gehenna is a 'type' of the lake of fire in some abstract way ... which seems vaguely possible ,but hardly provable I guess

on the other hand we do know that everyone eventually accepts Jesus as king of kings eventually which means they stop sinning and become Loving in obedience to him as king and so are saved ...

Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, ‘To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might—to the ages of the ages!’

and so it makes more sense, to that God claims to be the saviour of all men, by believing the scripture that I derived my words from ....and I have shown you that that anyone believes your words which prove on examination not to correspond to the best estimates which we have of the original scripture [as distinct from the many versions edited and translated by sinners who the scripture says are of Satan,not Jesus...] is being misled by sinners, by Satan then:-

1 John 3:6 ... whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[strangertoo]

The difference is the final state. The lost do not live forever while the redeemed do live forever.

but God is saviour of all men ... the 'lost', meaning all who are sinners now , progressively are found , stage by stage , until all accept Jesus' law of love as king of kinds in his kingdom come in the new earth... :-

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, ‘To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might—to the ages of the ages!’

those who believe now are very few saved by grace at Jesus return [Matt 7:13-14] and the many destroyed.... but of that many countless many are later saved by judgement day by works [Rev 20:13] after all are freed from hell [so no 'eternal torment' in hell!]Rev 20:13 , freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] and baptised of the spirit in resurrection because they have stopped sinning [Joel 2:28] to have their Love trialled [baptism of fire] in the kingdom come , for which purpose Satan is freed a short time [until judgement day when he dies a second death for wages of sin in the new earth, to free him yet again from sin for his baptism of fire in the lake of fire , where the last men seek the enduring mercy of God, accepting Jesus as Jesus says all will...

Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, ‘To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might—to the ages of the ages!’

 

[Senecharnix]

Those consigned to Hell will hope in vain for a reprieve beyond the prospect of perishing in the Lake of Fire....

 

[Timothew]

Strangertoo, you and I disagree, but I don't want to air our disagreement here. I respect your opinion.

 

[Timothew]

Those consigned to Hell will hope in vain for a reprieve beyond the prospect of perishing in the Lake of Fire....

Aside from the yellow font, I pretty much agree with this. Although I don't think they actively "hope" since they are dead in the intermediate state. But this describes the difference between the dead apart from Christ and the dead in Christ who "sleep" until resurrection day.

 

[thesunisout]

strange that you think that when I learned it from the bible and the God of the bible , and quoted throughout how it is based upon the bible...

Nothing you posted even began to prove your case. Show me the scripture that definitively proves that men are reincarnated and given another chance.

simply a mistranslation by sinners with an axe to grind , here is the LITERAL translation by Young which makes sense unlike the physically impossible notion of eternal time

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’

I'll just point the obvious out to you here; if it doesn't mean eternal punishment, it doesn't mean eternal life either.

The bible says no such thing, but says God is the spirit ... God cannot die, the spirit cannot die - because it is of God

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We have a spirit and a soul:

1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul indeed can die:

Ezekiel 18:4

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Matthew 28:10

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

death IS an end, and the spirit is end-less , without end... so you have created an oxymoron which appears nowhere in scripture whilst claiming my words from scripture are not from scripture...

you seem very confused indeed , so I suggest that you read every word of God and see that I have only pointed out what they say , and that what you say is LITERALLY not there except in mistranslated bibles...

the soul that sins shall die. so yes, it can have an end, but what we're talking about is spiritual death. This spiritual death is eternal, which actually satisfies even the preconditions of your false argument about the spirit. Neither is youngs "literal" translation literal or accurate.

Doctrinal Issues In The New Bible Versions

'gehenna' is the Valley of the son of Hinnom outside Jerusalem... and indeed the continual flow of refuse and dead bodies meant that the fire there was never quenched always fed with more to burn, and the worms bred there continually, never dying out because there was always more for them to breed in and grow by eating , continual generations of worms ...

And that is likened to the kind of punishment someone will receive in hell; never ending. Are you actually trying to argue the passage is saying you will literally end up in the garbage dump of ancient israel? It is obviously a metaphor for the lake of fire.

on the other hand we do know that everyone eventually accepts Jesus as king of kings eventually which means they stop sinning and become Loving in obedience to him as king and so are saved ...

No, we don't know that.

Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

There is only one opportunity to accept Jesus; if you face judgment without forgiveness for sins, you go to hell.

and so it makes more sense, to that God claims to be the saviour of all men, by believing the scripture that I derived my words from ....and I have shown you that that anyone believes your words which prove on examination not to correspond to the best estimates which we have of the original scripture [as distinct from the many versions edited and translated by sinners who the scripture says are of Satan,not Jesus...] is being misled by sinners, by Satan then:

You are twisting scripture to support your universalist beliefs and ignoring the scripture which proves it to be wrong. Scripture such as these:

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's funny that you say we cannot trust Gods word because it was handled by sinners, but apparently it's accurate enough for you to prove *your* doctrine. The fact is that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and God has preserved His word for us.


You are also quite mistaken about your interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

When it says He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe, there must be something pertaining to those who believe that makes them different from "all men". If Jesus takes everyone to Heaven, how is this especially true for believers? This is nonsense. It is saying He is the Saviour of all men in the sense that He has made a way of salvation for all men, and that He shows no partiality between persons; salvation is available for all people, if they accept Jesus into their life. Not in the sense that they are all saved now, or ever will be.

 

[strangertoo]

Strangertoo, you and I disagree, but I don't want to air our disagreement here. I respect your opinion.

use a PM then if you wish... but seriously consider what God says, that he will do the teaching if you just give up abusing folks with sin and start Loving them all instead... it ain't that much to ask for what one receives... ultimately happiness from inside... and salvation by the very quickest route... not that it's a trade, it's free , it's just that one simply can't serve two masters, sinners listen to Satan , not God ...

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1 John 3:6 whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 ... he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[strangertoo]

Aside from the yellow font, I pretty much agree with this. Although I don't think they actively "hope" since they are dead in the intermediate state. But this describes the difference between the dead apart from Christ and the dead in Christ who "sleep" until resurrection day.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ... the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

also you are forgetting that they are denied a thrid death after the second death... so clearly they are resurrected after 'judgement day' [which is simply God removing the many who already perfected Love in life so the evil begin making things unbearable for the evil, the evil system breaks down,the conspiracy against God fails ... the shame causes men to want to commit suicide, but God cannot allow that as he Loves them, needs them to face their terrible shame from two lives of sin and repent at last , sue for His ENDURING mercy... I do not get why folks deny God's mercy endures , why would anyone do that when it says so over a hundred times in the bible that it endures ?

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You misrepresented my opinion, was it deliberate, or did you just not understand my position?

The difference is the final state. The lost do not live forever while the redeemed do live forever.

Actually no one lives forever in the view being expressed here. It has been clearly stated that we all perish at death in this view, and it was implicitly clear that NO ONE is "living" at that point. So no matter what one thinks occurs next, it cannot be said that ANYONE lives forever, because EVERYONE stops living at death.

And as repeatedly pointed out, after we are "just dead", "perished" there is NO afterlife for us. The person, the individual who has lived this life is no more in this construct.

It will be said "Yes, but God can recreate each of us", so we only "perish temporarily". Well, yes He could, but if one believes there is NOTHING more of each us remaining after we die (perish) then the person God RECREATES is not a resurrection of the original, it is nothing more than a copy. Even if a perfect copy with all of the original's memories, one cannot get around the fact that after the original is "no more" those memories would be the ONLY thing connecting the copy to the life of the original.

I suppose one could take the cold atheistic stance that those memories are the only thing that make each of us individuals, that all the millions of electronic connections in our brains, is ALL that we are and the ONLY thing which makes each of us unique. Load those memories into basically anything else (even mechanical if that were possible some would say) and that thing then becomes that individual.

But in that view, it is hardly comforting to imagine another creature, recreated (not resurrected) and given our memories gets the reward for our life. Nor is it any threat to imagine another creature with our memories gets punished for our life.

 

[Timothew]

seriously consider what God says, that he will do the teaching if you just give up abusing folks with sin and start Loving them all instead... it ain't that much to ask for what one receives...

Okay, I will try to do that. Thank you.

It's difficult to not poke back, but I will try.

 

[strangertoo]

Nothing you posted even began to prove your case. Show me the scripture that definitively proves that men are reincarnated and given another chance.

Well the easy way for you to know that for sure from God is simply to obey Him, stop sinning against folks and Love them all and God will teach you all Truth Himself , as promised by Jesus ... and you might as well start sooner rather than later since no-one gets saved [translated to spirit]without perfecting their Love in life and that baptism of fire takes time too...

but to answer your query, if you think God judges all sinners finally in the end of this earth [Matt 7:13 - almost all men destroyed] consider first why God resurrects everyone from hell -Rev 20:13 - if He already judged them as sinners [and correctly, they are indeed all sinners and their wages is death - and all the few non-sinners , saints [Jude 1:14], have been taken first by Jesus]

why should God then resurrect them all and judge them again ???

Acts 24:15 .. that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

why are the billions of the earth judged justly and killed for sin then brought back to life FREE OF SIN ? ...released from death and hell to be judged by WORKS after death :-

Rev 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now we know few are saved in this life -Matt 7:13-14-, the many are destroyed ... we even know who the few are -Rev 7:3-8 , Jude 1:14 and that the wages of all still sinners by Jesus' return are death - just death of the unjust for sin against one another and against God's and Jesus' command to Love:-

Romans 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

the sinners all die then, billions of them , and God translates the tens of thousands of saints to serve Jesus as kings and priests in the kingdom come in the righteous [to Love] new earth [as this earth is destroyed in the wrath of God]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

2 Peter 3:13 ... we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness: [Note : to Love, no sin allowed on pain of a second and just (mortal) death , the law of God didn't change]
but whom do the king-priests rule overand minister to once they have built up the kingdom for a thousand years whilst all sinners and Satan 'sleep' in death ?ALLare released from hell [Rev 20:13] including Satan who prompty makes war on God and the saints and after a short time is killed again for his sin along with a substantial number of other sinners who still follow him...

Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;
9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.

BUT all those still sinning and Satan are again removed in death AGAIN ... the few saints have MANY to serve who CHOOSE Love against sin in the righteous kingdom , and we KNOW that countless MANY are saved at this later time [Rev 7:9-10 ] who very clearly are destroyed in this life ... and very clearly are freed from hell and death [Rev 20:13] and very clearly are freed of sin by death [Rom 6:7] ,not by grace, and resurrected to the righteous new earth kingdom come of Jesus' finally ruling as king of the king-priests and high priest of the order of Melchizedek [translated immortal priests who can manifest and re-translate to spirit free of death as 'messengers' of God ]

So , I'munsure how you missed all of this in your bible-reading, but there you are , laid out on a plate for you... but frankly you have to stop sinning to get into the kingdom, so you might as well do it now as later ... and then you get told all this by God Himself [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11, etc] , much easier really, and 100% sure... spirit baptism... personal and private though, one-on-one with God ... and absolutely no faking else you will die [as the scripture points out in many places , don't try and mess with God, complete honesty only , and repent all He says you are guilty of , which is almost certainly far more than you'll admit easily, even to yourself in private] ...

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’

I'll just point the obvious out to you here; if it doesn't mean eternal punishment, it doesn't mean eternal life either.

indeed so... and as you understand the spirit more you will come to see that the 'life' of the spirit is endless existence creating,but without change... life as 'human beings' which we see involves continual destruction [sunlight is turned into food by life and we destroy the food to stay mostly the same for a while, but then we die if not translated] ... life as we think we know it involves change which involves in turn takes TIME , time which is created at the beginning of universes by the spirit and ends at the end of created space-time universes ... God's 'life' as spirit is actually the same as our life as spirit, but that is very different from our life as we see it in nature ... thus we change in translation , free of the body [but able to manifest as men again to serve God] :-

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, [NOTE: not all die] but we shall all be changed...
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

We have a spirit and a soul:

or more accurately, we have a spirit which causes us to become a soul in a body... and at death the soul [physical life] ends , the body usually decays of is burned [but not as punishment] , and the spirit returms to god who gave it [of Himself] :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

by the spirit then we are all resurrected , because God REQUIRES of this creation that it become ONElike He is ONE , by perfecting Love in life before translation free of death [which is simply the main way men are freed from sin to be able to try love and find out God is not kidding, Love REALLY is a better way for EVERYONE... in life , age-during life... the spirit is ONE already , as in heaven so on earth... but not THIS earth!

1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have never suggested otherwise , why do you mention it... the soul is our physical life , and in life we have a spirit and a body which TOGETHER become that soul , just as in the creation and in resurrection, but even in a spaceship the physical life [soul] cannot travel to the new universe , new created heavens, new earth... only the spirit can do that and re-create the soul in a new body ,so that even more men can do what God requires all to do eventually, before all are translated free of the physical, ONE with God with no need to perfect Love in life as a soul because we have all done so ... as Jesus says, all accept him and Love eventually...

The soul indeed can die:

sure physical lives ALL end , just as they all begin... but the spirit does not, cannot, begin and end, it is without time, creates time...

Ezekiel 18:4

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

a pity most men do not realise that if they don't sin then there is no need for death [except as an act of Love] ... most do not even notice that Jesus did not die a second death , but thus was translated some time after showing the disciples that he was resurrected as flesh and bones, not as spirit...

 

[strangertoo]

Matthew 28:10

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

actually its Matthew 10:28 ... and indeed in this life destroying the body as the Roman fake religion did to the saints of Hebrew Christianity , as here being discussed in scripture, does not end the soul because the soul is always resurrected ... but God Himself will destroy sinners in the kingdom come , and the lake of fire is a suffering of baptism of fire by the most evil of men desperate because veil is at last failing them, they are suffering themselves from evil of one another as God has taken away their 'easy prey' of this life ... and the soul is indeed destroyed with the body, but the spirit allows resurrection of the same soul in a new body, the essence of a man is spirit, as we are made in the image of God who is spirit... note that nowhere does it say that the spirit of a man is or can be destroyed...

the soul that sins shall die. so yes, it can have an end, but what we're talking about is spiritual death. This spiritual death is eternal, which actually satisfies even the preconditions of your false argument about the spirit.

the bible nowhere talks of 'spiritual death' or death of the spirit... for the simple reason that the spirit is ONE, is God, God cannot die or be destroyed...

Neither is Young's "literal" translation literal or accurate.

well I'm well aware of it's many failings , and indeed usually quote the KJV which is even worse but far more poetic , in the spirit of the original poetic language of the scripture... but most modern translations are worse again because Satan controls mass religion of men more and more towards Rev 13:3-4 and subtly altering scripture is one of his favourite games with men , who are always easy prey for a story that tells them they can continue to sin and still be saved... even saved first [which latter is untrue of course]...

one of the more powerful ways to uncover truth if one still refuses to stop sinning and Love as God commands ,so that God can teach one Himself, is to compare the usage of words throughout scripture ... by that means one can prove what is obvious because of division right down to individual beliefs , that modern religion is rum by Satan, not Jesus ... Why does Satan divide men in belief before uniting them in faith in him as God and Christ [Rev 13:3-4] ? ... it is a very old trick called 'divide and conquer' used by his evil cohorts throughout history to rule the world... but we see now its climax in the NWO movement in all governments and all religions worldwide... it simply means one really has less time than one might think as a sinner to stop sinning before Jesus return and perfect one's Love and be taken from before the wrath of God against all sinners...

And that is likened to the kind of punishment someone will receive in hell; never ending.

Satan's divided religion is still flogging dead horses to flog religious lies about scripture LOLOL?... but I assure you there is no point in torturing dead men... we even seal them in small boxes and burn them to ashes ,but still they refuse to repent , some even say they cannot speak or feel any punishment, and I begin to believe them ... there really is no sense in flogging a dead horse except that it scares men into Satan's churches of sinners because they are frightened one might flog them...

but the Loving God has not need to punish anyone, except to mete out death to sinners who insist they are saved as sinners and will not listen to be reproved by God by what He judges the truth ...

almost all suffering of both saints and sinners comes from sinners, not God ... God USES that suffering in longsuffering of saints to teach patience and perfect Love of fellow man[even those who abuse one] , even in the lake of fire it is the [then-concentrated] sin of the evil men there from which they suffer :-

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

God does not in any way approve of evil, but He does use it for good because it cannot be avoided altogether and men mostly do not choose Love until they become disillusioned with evil ... that is indeed why God saves the FEW first and uses them in the later salvation of the many after freeing the many from sin by death whilst the kingdom is readied by the few who Love now for salvation of billions over a thousand years later ...

Are you actually trying to argue the passage is saying you will literally end up in the garbage dump of ancient Israel? It is obviously a metaphor for the lake of fire.

it seems quite possibly so, as I said... but claiming it is obvious is often a trick even on themselves of folks who have no proof... so I would be interested in your proof even though I believe you may well be right and God doesn't disagree as yet [in my experience] , but neither has He confirmed it to me as I have not that much interest, since I know Jesus states that all creation will accept Love eventually, accept his command to Love when he is king of kings of all men... in the kingdom come in the new [second] earth [needing to be somewhat larger I guess than this one as all men who ever lived are resurrected there...]

No, we don't know that.

Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement,

Well it's certainly true that most men die only once for sin , to free them from sin, and then every man { except the very few already judged in this life at Jesus' return and translated [saved] then} is judged at 'judgement day after being freed from sin by death , at last all men able to be baptised of the spirit [Joel 2:28] and indeed countless many saved at this later time...

but I don't think that you even noticed that it means men are MOSTLY NOT judged in this life , God's judgement in this life was death for sinners, salvation for saints [as is ALWAYS all God judges] ... it is like a ratchet , God keeps saving more and more men progressively until all are saved... has to keep judging who is perfected in Love , who is still a sinner , does it in batches , the firstborn are but few, but God uses them in the kingdom as kings and priests so there are many later ...

so indeed the main, massive judgement of almost all men that ever lived is indeed after almost all men have died once, before any have died a second time because of that judgement...

but there are a few who never die at all, even the few saints still alive at Jesus' return who have no need to die before translation ... and of course God has always taken those who please Him with their natural Love , who never believe a word of Satan';s temptations to sin :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

indeed there is no second death

WHAAAT!
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 ...This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is only one opportunity to accept Jesus; if you face judgement without forgiveness for sins, you go to hell.

ummm... but EVERYONE who faces judgement day already was in hell and was set free - Rev 20:13 ... freed from sin [by being paid sin's wages in FULL for their first life of sin, death -Rom 6:7]

they are resurrected to the righteous kingdom of Jesus that takes an age to get ready, a thousand years, the perfect Loving kings and priests trained
for dealing with billions ... and countless many saved [Rev 7:9-10] who were all destroyed before [Matt 7:13-14]... saved by works [Rev 20:13] AFTER death frees them from sin [Rom 6:7] to live by Love in the kingdom , Loving works which God judges good enough for salvation... what on earth do you think the kingdom come is FOR?
Whom do the kings and priests SERVE ?
Whom does Jesus at last RULE with rod of iron [unbendable Law of Love with death, a second death, still the wages of ANY sin]
How are the countless many later saved [Rev 7:9-10] when the many are destroyed and only few saved [Matt 7:13-14] at Jesus' return
When are all the billions saved who died [sinners] BEFORE Jesus came the first time , who had no opportunity at all to be saved in this life in this earth ?

You are twisting scripture to support your universalist beliefs

actually I have unravelled the scripture for you according to what God says, so if something looks 'twisted' to you then lets just discuss it before making conclusions... because God knows best what His scripture means, but requires that one listen to Him in preference to listening to Satan... most folks are still sinners , so most prefer Satan's version of scripture... God's version however hangs all together as ONE, so one can eventually untangle the often subtle lies in Satan's version [or one can stop sinning and God will do the work for one in spirit baptism]


... and I don't have any 'universalist beliefs' and have never claimed to be one of one of their sects ... I have never yet met a 'universalist' who understands scripture as well as God does and imparts His Truth in spirit baptism... I have never joined any sect or religion because they are all divided and support package deals of a few Truths mixed with a lot of lies , one of Satan's neater tricks for getting men to accept his lies in religion... mix in a little Truth to get them hooked first... then turn the screws and nail them down to faith in the lies ... it works well for him - Rev 13:3-4 - until it doesn't [Ezek 28]

and ignoring the scripture which proves it to be wrong. Scripture such as these:

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Jesus survived destruction ['apoleia'] in crucifixion by means of resurrection, showing us that we all shall survive hell , no problem ,no sting in death except loss of one more chance to Love in life through choosing sin instead [Rev 20:13] :-

Acts 2:31 ... spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus showed the way to beat hell, death, sin, for sinners , because most men die sinners in this life , as indeed your quote shows ... but Jesus tells us countless many are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] who clearly are vastly more than the few saved by finding the way now [Matt 7:14] , so are indeed from the many destroyed in [Matt 7:13]

Your strange theory that God saves only the few firstborn of the spirit is clearly false . countless many are later saved according to Jesus, why do you not believe him? not FEW my friend , only FEW first at Jesus return , then this earth is destroyed and the billions with it in the wrath of God against ALL still sinners [Matt 7:13]:-

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.