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The law (Ten Commandments only) must be abolished!

Elder 111

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Elder III-

First, the foundation of God's throne is God himself, rather than any set of laws. As well, in my reply to you I made it clear that in order for The Ten Commandments to be carried out as God intended the Hebrews to carry them out, they had to have the other laws of Torah to 'flesh them out'.

Also, where is sexual immorality in The Ten Commandments? I first read them before many of the people on this forum were born, and I have yet to see any injunction against homosexuality, fornication, bestiality, having relations with our fathers' wives, or marrying close relatives. The only sexual injunction in The Ten Commandments forbids adultery specifically, so without Leviticus' laws acting independently of The Ten Commandments, none of the other sexual indiscretions should be disapproved of.

As for loving God's being in The Ten Commandments, you're trying to read something into them that isn't really there. The first three commandments are more inclined to instill fear rather than love. Left to themselves there is nothing to indicate that God would even want our love, but only our obedience, which was more often than not obtained through the use of fear and terror.

Also loving our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18b) is neither implied nor inferred in any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, the commandments tell us, "Keep your hands off other people and their possessions." But there it ends. Again, we must look to an independent source in order to place 'love' into the societal equation.

And all too often sects which demand that we keep The Ten Commandments as they have interpreted them do not want anyone to read the verses that come before the listing of The Ten Commandments:

Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that he made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) (Deuteronomy 5:1-5a,NIV)

What follows are The Ten Commandments themselves being recited. This Scripture passage tells us that those commandments were intended for a specific group of people, namely, the Hebrews alive at that time. They weren't even applicable to their ancestors, but began with them. I don't know about your ancestors, but mine were in northern Europe at that time. So the laws which were specific to the Hebrews wandering through the Sinai desert make for good reading material, just as The Code of Hammurabi, which preceded the laws of Torah by centuries, makes good reading material. But there it ends.

I'm a Christian, not a Jew. I respect the Jews, and consider it as antisemitic when a sect tries to convince us that it was their ancestors, rather than the Abrahamites (another word for Jews), who were given the laws at Mt. Sinai, and so should be seen as 'the chosen people'. But the laws I accept are to be found in the New Testament as part of the New Covenant, rather than in the Old Testament as part of the Old Covenant. Where Jesus or his apostles repeated a law that is to be found initially in Torah, then that specific law is to be seen by Christians as still important. But concerning those laws which they did not repeat, I consider them as null and void.
Firstly Bro Harry,
The point was that God has His ten commandments in heaven all like now under His throne.
I take it from what you have said that the Ten commandments come up short. Do you realize that it is God who gave them? That implies that God came up short or was inadequate in this act.
Secontly as far as I know the disciples and Jesus mentioned or observed all the 10 Commandments. So according to your statement above you should be observing them and accept them as valid to us.
 
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Sophrosyne

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There is no net difference if one is saved by the law or keeps the law as a requirement because they are saved. It would still be salvation by works of the law. Gal 3


bugkiller
Exactly... we have too many pretending that keeping the Law after salvation isn't part of salvation at all, but since it isn't required of Gentiles before salvation then it must be a package deal along with it and thus part of it because it is simple:
1)Stay unsaved = No (mandatory) Lawkeeping
2)Get saved = (mandatory) Lawkeeping
But if you equate Getting Saved with NO (mandatory) Lawkeeping then salvation has nothing to do with it.
 
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Elder 111

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There is no net difference if one is saved by the law or keeps the law as a requirement because they are saved. It would still be salvation by works of the law. Gal 3


bugkiller
This is absolutely ridiculous.
You are stating that what is spiritual, holy, good and just is of works and should not be done. Rom. 7:7-14
That James is a liar and unholy in promoting works. James 2:18-20.
 
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Elder 111

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Exactly... we have too many pretending that keeping the Law after salvation isn't part of salvation at all, but since it isn't required of Gentiles before salvation then it must be a package deal along with it and thus part of it because it is simple:
1)Stay unsaved = No (mandatory) Lawkeeping
2)Get saved = (mandatory) Lawkeeping
But if you equate Getting Saved with NO (mandatory) Lawkeeping then salvation has nothing to do with it.
So when I was saved I was living in an adulterous relationship so after I am saved I should continue in the same relationship. When I was saved I was stealing after I am save I should continue to steal.Chapter and verse please.
 
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MoreCoffee

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This is absolutely ridiculous.
You are stating that what is spiritual, holy, good and just is of works and should not be done. Rom. 7:7-14
That James is a liar and unholy in promoting works. James 2:18-20.
Looks to me like bugkiller is saying that people are saved by grace and not by earning grace through works nor are they kept in grace through works.

I suspect that you probably believe the above anyway, right?
 
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Isatis

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So when I was saved I was living in an adulterous relationship so after I am saved I should continue in the same relationship. When I was saved I was stealing after I am save I should continue to steal.

depends how you define saved.
 
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bugkiller

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No I am not saying to go sin. No I am not saying it is now right to lie, steal, murder, covet, hate your parents or commit adultery or even hate God.

How can one even do those things and exhibit the fruits of the Spirit found in Gal 5? Love will not harm anything. Thus love fulfills the law while not being obedient to the law. Such behaviour does not obligate one to the 7th day sabbath or any of the law.

James is not speaking about works of (obedience to) the law in 2:18-20.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Depends on what an adulterous relationship is. Is it nothing more than anextra maritial affair or is it because the first wife is devorced and now have a second wife?

To continue in a life style of sin is not repentance. Not sinning is not necessarialy obedience to the law. obedience by coincidence is not obedience.

bugkiller
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by bugkiller To continue in a life style of sin is not repentance.
:thumbsup: :liturgy:

Matthew 23:33 Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Revelation 9:21 yea they did not repent/reform from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their whoredoms, nor from their thefts.
Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages;
and they have no rest day and night.......

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
Jesus vs the Pharisees

...
 
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Elder 111

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Looks to me like bugkiller is saying that people are saved by grace and not by earning grace through works nor are they kept in grace through works.

I suspect that you probably believe the above anyway, right?
I think you should read it again.
The question is, does grace mean that they is no law? Is there no Ten commandments to observe? That is the statement made.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I think you should read it again.
The question is, does grace mean that they is no law? Is there no Ten commandments to observe? That is the statement made.
Is this an existentialist question or something?

Obviously there was and is a ten commandments, we can read them in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5.

bugkiller believes, as far as I can tell, that people are saved by grace and not by earning grace through works nor are they kept in grace through works.

Is that what you believe?
 
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Elder 111

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No I am not saying to go sin. No I am not saying it is now right to lie, steal, murder, covet, hate your parents or commit adultery or even hate God.

How can one even do those things and exhibit the fruits of the Spirit found in Gal 5? Love will not harm anything. Thus love fulfills the law while not being obedient to the law. Such behaviour does not obligate one to the 7th day sabbath or any of the law.

James is not speaking about works of (obedience to) the law in 2:18-20.

bugkiller
So if I do not do the things you mentioned above it is because I am saved but if I say I am keeping the ten commandments and do not do the same things I am doing works?
There is no commandments to observe but I must not do the things that the commandments say do not do?
Why can't anyone see how stupid that argument is? IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.
 
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Elder 111

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Depends on what an adulterous relationship is. Is it nothing more than anextra maritial affair or is it because the first wife is devorced and now have a second wife?

To continue in a life style of sin is not repentance. Not sinning is not necessarialy obedience to the law. obedience by coincidence is not obedience.

bugkiller
What is it?
 
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Elder 111

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Is this an existentialist question or something?

Obviously there was and is a ten commandments, we can read them in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5.

bugkiller believes, as far as I can tell, that people are saved by grace and not by earning grace through works nor are they kept in grace through works.

Is that what you believe?
That is not the issue. No one has stated that salvation is earned. The statement is made that there is no ten commandments to observe.
 
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That is not the issue. No one has stated that salvation is earned. The statement is made that there is no ten commandments to observe.

I agree with morecoffee that your statement seems to be quite existentialist in nature. There are 613 biblical commandments to observe. We have them written for us in the Old Testament. Other religions have other commandments to observe, as well. In fact, one might reasonably say that there is a virtually unlimited number of commandments to observe.

The point, I think, is whether or not any of the commandments are required to be observed. Every proponent of any commandment or set of commandments will insist that their commandment(s) should be observed, would they not?
 
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Elder 111

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I agree with morecoffee that your statement seems to be quite existentialist in nature. There are 613 biblical commandments to observe. We have them written for us in the Old Testament. Other religions have other commandments to observe, as well. In fact, one might reasonably say that there is a virtually unlimited number of commandments to observe.

The point, I think, is whether or not any of the commandments are required to be observed. Every proponent of any commandment or set of commandments will insist that their commandment(s) should be observed, would they not?
I am at a lost as to how the point is being avoided continually. It is about the Ten Commandments only. none other, period!
 
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