God forbids using grace as an excuse for continued sin .. Romans 6:15

[strangertoo]

willieH: Hi strangertoo...
Though I answer you, my words are intended for those reading along, and not you. As you are troubled by my use of color, I do not expect you shall bother reading what I say in this reply... (which is fine with me! )

You are foolish indeed to ignore the scriptures just because I quote them my friend, but then few learn from God in this life [Matt 7:14] , most learn from sinners , who serve Satan , the result is inevitable [Matt 7:13]

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

FIRST --- This is simply YOUR observation. This portion of Scripture is given unto ISRAEL and JUDAH. So, in implying that "it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant" -- you imply that no GENTILE is under the covenant of GRACE?

You MISTAKE for not reading the scripture, not reading what I wrote ... so I'll try again... MOST of Israel is and always was the House of Israel and they NEVER were Jews , are still hated and rejected by most Jews , NEVER accepted Judaism , lived as a separate kingdom ...

so again you create a straw-man by not reading the whole of scripture, not even reading that Jesus came ONLY for the House of Israel , no-one else

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

and if you READ the new covenant of grace [Jer 31:31-34] then you would see that it is ONLY with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, explicitly only with the Jews [House of Judah] AND the much larger House of Israel , now scattered and mixed in with GENTILES worldwide , still not accepting Judaism, still idol-worshippers, still not converting to Judaism, never becoming Jews , living as gentiles, believing they are gentiles [which they are by all except BIRTH]

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

long before the Jews were scattered, the House of Israel ceased to exist, got mixed into gentile nations worldwide ... yet these descendants of those who broke the old covenant are FORGIVEN in THEIR new covenant with God ... read it and weap for your not reading it carefully BEFORE:-

Heb 8;8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers

note that this scripture disproves the lie of sinners about Israel not being Israel [although not all Israel are Israel of God , most Jews are not saints in this life, most of the House of Israel's descendants are not saints in this life - again sinners misquote the scripture of Paul on who is Israel]

so I'm afraid your words are not according to the new covenant, but come from teachings of sinners... you cannot learn about God from sinners...

they do not know, have not been baptised of God , cannot be saved until they stop sinning , which they will not do now in this life because they have broken their vow in water baptism to stop sinning ...

If you are not of the JEWISH nation, then GRACE is not applicable to you? I (very seriously) doubt that you actually believe this ...

I have never said any such thing and you know it ... more straw-men and cheap theatrics! .. the Jews are only a tiny part of Israel... only some 20,000 or so of the 144,000 saints taken by Jesus will be Jews , the rest will seem to be gentiles because their descent from Jacob goes back thousands of years , is lost because the House of Israel ceased to be a people to all except God , but in the new covenant the descendants are forgiven because of God's promise [e.g, Exodus 19:6]

Even if you were MINDED of this, ...what of such as "the SAMARIAN women [John 4] at the well"? She was DEFINITELY not of the JEWISH nation (was an OUTCAST as far as the JEWS were concerned), yet the GRACE of CHRIST was freely given unto her. In John 4:27 the Apostles [which of course were JEWS] questioned Him speaking to her!

as I have said, and you fail to read repeatedly what I have actually said, most of Israel are NOT Jews ... the House of Israel are NOT a people any more, the Jews ARE a people :-

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

In fact Jesus came only for the House of Israel BECAUSE he knows that the non-Jewish sainst will bring on some Jewish saints eventually , right at the end... but one day you will read that scripture too...

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

there is only one foolish nation who are not a people, the House of Israel...

SECOND --- Matt 7:14 -- does not designate any particular nation (ISRAEL/JUDAH), nor does it mention GRACE.

So what? ... only FEW find the way and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] ... it hardly has to mention that the many did not find grace to be saved by translation to spirit ... Jude 1:14 tells us how FEW , just tens of thousands of saints, NO SINNERS ... Jesus is even more explicit in Rev 7:3-8, says they are all descended from the sons of Jacob named there , just 144,000 and we know from Jude 1:14 that it is literal ...

The word DESTRUCTION used in this verse is -- APOLEIA - #G684 - which is derivitive of the Greek word APOLLUMI -- which is truly DESTRUCTION, but NOT in a permanent sense. As the LOST [apollumi] sheep, coin and Son in -- Luke 15:4-10 -- were amidst "APOLLUMI" = destruction... but each of them eventually became FOUND and thereby -- "UNdestroyed".

I know that and have wrioitten about it many times, but you refuse to READ the scripture I quote for you... Jesus too was 'destroyed' ['apoleia'] in crucifixion, yet survived by resurrection, and we know the MANY are ALL resurreceted, all freed from hell [Rev 20:13] , BUT then they are saved BY WORKS [Rev 20:13] , not by grace ... there is no need ogf grace because DEATH is the wages of sin PAID in full, he that dies is freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] so no need of grace... only the FEW of the FEW who survive being saints in this life [most saints die] are translated from life , as scripture says , IF YOU ACTUALLY READ IT ...

GOD views men as in SPIRITUAL death, until HE changes that. Which is a state (temporal) of DESTRUCTION, which He brings us back (via resurrection) from (1) the DEATH of the soul -- Ez 18:20 -- and (2) the DEATH of the FLESH -- 1 Cor 15:42-44

You NEED to understand the difference between the soul [physical life] and
the endless spirit of a man from God , else you will keep making this mistake as you have many times and still refuse the scriptures that explain your mistake ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the spirit is the ONLY aspect of a man which is endless , non-physical, not mortal because it is of God , so immortal ... and the essence of a man is in his spirit from which men are ALL resurrected to life if they die sinners still ... saints are 'translated' to spirit, free of death,, able to manifest and re-translate [as in the transfiguration , as messengers too so-called 'angels']

that is how we know all men will be saved, the spirit is of God , it has 'nowhere else to be' except as God when creations end [as they all do]

the 'soul' however is CREATED by the spirit 'animating' an otherwise daed body :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the soul is just the life of the body by means of the spirit, life [soul] ends at death, just as it begins by the spirit 'entering' the body, 'breath' of God

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

understand then that the soul is mortal life CAUSED by the spirit, life [soul] really does end, only the spirit is endless, indestructible...

so it is only poetic licence to talk of 'souls of the dead' because the soul is ALWAYS re-created until the body becomes a saint in LIFE , Love has to be perfected in life, one knows nothing, can do nothing, in death , cannot be punished in death [in fact dead bodies are often incinerated , they feel no punishment in this ]

Actually, ALL is VANITY -- Ecc 1:2 -- this verse [Rom 6:7] is saying we are "FREED" by "DEATH" from participating in "SIN" (Job 14:13)

as with much in scripture, it is hyperbole, the Love of saints is not vain , it brings about the later salvation of the many [Rev 7:9-10] in the kingdom come that the saints of this life build in the new earth ... Jesus' kingdom where he actually rules by Love at last ...saves billions , not the few who find the wya now who serve simply as his kings and priests ... did you never wonder whom they serve ?

...meaning that those who DIE no longer have to do with that which is DONE UNDER THE SUN (sinning) -- Ecc 1:14 -- Ecc 9:5-6 -- which was their portion of the on-going involvement with SIN -- As PAUL clearly expressed of himself -- Rom 7:24-25

indeed so, but they have a new earth and heavens, a new sun, a new earth :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Why do you ignore all this scripture ????

and countless amny are saved BY WORKS [Rev 20:13] after all are freed from hell [Rev 20:13]

Clearly Jesus DOES say all are released from hell in Rev 20:13 ... read it yourself in your own bible

FIRST -- No one is saved by WORKS -- Eph 2:8-9 -- GRACE alone SAVES any and EVERY MAN -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 --

You are mistaken, that verse says NOTHING about being saved by grace, only about being saved through Jesus ... it is Jesus who saves the FEW by grace in this life who set up HIS kingdom in the new earth, where countless MANY are saved BY WORKS [Rev 20:13] , freed from hell to Love in the righteous kingdom come and so be saved without need of grace to free them from sin because they were freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] ...

1Tim:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Furthermore, this is SYMBOLIC language, ...and NOT in ANY WAY does this verse imply that anyone is "freed" from "hell".

symbolic of what, Jesus simply says they are all freed from death and hell...

SECOND --- HADES means GRAVE. Period. (Research the Septuagint... which in EVERY INSTANCE of the Hebrew word SHEOL in OT uses the word HADES --- which means GRAVE).

well clearly not all folks enter a grave , so that is not good enough a translation... but 'hades' only represents a virtual, imaginary 'place of the dead' ... clearly the body is recycled to the earth and the spirit returns to God, there is nothing else to go anywhere else :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

it is just a manner of speaking to say that souls go somewhere at death when in fact life ends and begins again in resurrection BY MEANS of the spirit ...

witness that Jesus' soul too 'went to hell' , so it is clearly NOT the place many conceive it to be because of tales of sinners...

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi S2...


So my use of color didnt bother you enough to abstain from answering, eh? That's nice, shows you are growing a bit.

This is a detailed answer, which will require a detailed response. I will do it when I get time to do it, so please be patient. I have obligations to meet today, maybe this evening, maybe tomorrow.


It actually cracks me up that you think to correct me. Scriptural correction must always be considered, but opinionated or observational correction, is in one ear - out the other...


In just browsing your answer I will humbly admit that I did not think in terms of fullness on some of my replies... but I will in a deeper way, address that in my reply... to this, have a good day.

You are foolish indeed to ignore the scriptures just because I quote them my friend, but then few learn from God in this life [Matt 7:14] , most learn from sinners , who serve Satan , the result is inevitable [Matt 7:13]

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil
You MISTAKE for not reading the scripture, not reading what I wrote ... so I'll try again... MOST of Israel is and always was the House of Israel and they NEVER were Jews , are still hated and rejected by most Jews , NEVER accepted Judaism , lived as a separate kingdom ...

so again you create a straw-man by not reading the whole of scripture, not even reading that Jesus came ONLY for the House of Israel , no-one else

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

and if you READ the new covenant of grace [Jer 31:31-34] then you would see that it is ONLY with those whose fathers broke the old covenant, explicitly only with the Jews [House of Judah] AND the much larger House of Israel , now scattered and mixed in with GENTILES worldwide , still not accepting Judaism, still idol-worshippers, still not converting to Judaism, never becoming Jews , living as gentiles, believing they are gentiles [which they are by all except BIRTH]

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

long before the Jews were scattered, the House of Israel ceased to exist, got mixed into gentile nations worldwide ... yet these descendants of those who broke the old covenant are FORGIVEN in THEIR new covenant with God ... read it and weap for your not reading it carefully BEFORE:-

Heb 8;8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers

note that this scripture disproves the lie of sinners about Israel not being Israel [although not all Israel are Israel of God , most Jews are not saints in this life, most of the House of Israel's descendants are not saints in this life - again sinners misquote the scripture of Paul on who is Israel]

so I'm afraid your words are not according to the new covenant, but come from teachings of sinners... you cannot learn about God from sinners...

they do not know, have not been baptised of God , cannot be saved until they stop sinning , which they will not do now in this life because they have broken their vow in water baptism to stop sinning ...

I have never said any such thing and you know it ... more straw-men and cheap theatrics! .. the Jews are only a tiny part of Israel... only some 20,000 or so of the 144,000 saints taken by Jesus will be Jews , the rest will seem to be gentiles because their descent from Jacob goes back thousands of years , is lost because the House of Israel ceased to be a people to all except God , but in the new covenant the descendants are forgiven because of God's promise [e.g, Exodus 19:6]

as I have said, and you fail to read repeatedly what I have actually said, most of Israel are NOT Jews ... the House of Israel are NOT a people any more, the Jews ARE a people :-

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

In fact Jesus came only for the House of Israel BECAUSE he knows that the non-Jewish sainst will bring on some Jewish saints eventually , right at the end... but one day you will read that scripture too...

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

there is only one foolish nation who are not a people, the House of Israel...

So what? ... only FEW find the way and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] ... it hardly has to mention that the many did not find grace to be saved by translation to spirit ... Jude 1:14 tells us how FEW , just tens of thousands of saints, NO SINNERS ... Jesus is even more explicit in Rev 7:3-8, says they are all descended from the sons of Jacob named there , just 144,000 and we know from Jude 1:14 that it is literal ...

I know that and have wrioitten about it many times, but you refuse to READ the scripture I quote for you... Jesus too was 'destroyed' ['apoleia'] in crucifixion, yet survived by resurrection, and we know the MANY are ALL resurreceted, all freed from hell [Rev 20:13] , BUT then they are saved BY WORKS [Rev 20:13] , not by grace ... there is no need ogf grace because DEATH is the wages of sin PAID in full, he that dies is freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] so no need of grace... only the FEW of the FEW who survive being saints in this life [most saints die] are translated from life , as scripture says , IF YOU ACTUALLY READ IT ...

You NEED to understand the difference between the soul [physical life] and
the endless spirit of a man from God , else you will keep making this mistake as you have many times and still refuse the scriptures that explain your mistake ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the spirit is the ONLY aspect of a man which is endless , non-physical, not mortal because it is of God , so immortal ... and the essence of a man is in his spirit from which men are ALL resurrected to life if they die sinners still ... saints are 'translated' to spirit, free of death,, able to manifest and re-translate [as in the transfiguration , as messengers too so-called 'angels']

that is how we know all men will be saved, the spirit is of God , it has 'nowhere else to be' except as God when creations end [as they all do]

the 'soul' however is CREATED by the spirit 'animating' an otherwise daed body :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the soul is just the life of the body by means of the spirit, life [soul] ends at death, just as it begins by the spirit 'entering' the body, 'breath' of God

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

understand then that the soul is mortal life CAUSED by the spirit, life [soul] really does end, only the spirit is endless, indestructible...

so it is only poetic licence to talk of 'souls of the dead' because the soul is ALWAYS re-created until the body becomes a saint in LIFE , Love has to be perfected in life, one knows nothing, can do nothing, in death , cannot be punished in death [in fact dead bodies are often incinerated , they feel no punishment in this ]

as with much in scripture, it is hyperbole, the Love of saints is not vain , it brings about the later salvation of the many [Rev 7:9-10] in the kingdom come that the saints of this life build in the new earth ... Jesus' kingdom where he actually rules by Love at last ...saves billions , not the few who find the wya now who serve simply as his kings and priests ... did you never wonder whom they serve ?

indeed so, but they have a new earth and heavens, a new sun, a new earth :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Why do you ignore all this scripture ????



Clearly Jesus DOES say all are released from hell in Rev 20:13 ... read it yourself in your own bible

You are mistaken, that verse says NOTHING about being saved by grace, only about being saved through Jesus ... it is Jesus who saves the FEW by grace in this life who set up HIS kingdom in the new earth, where countless MANY are saved BY WORKS [Rev 20:13] , freed from hell to Love in the righteous kingdom come and so be saved without need of grace to free them from sin because they were freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] ...

1Tim:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

symbolic of what, Jesus simply says they are all freed from death and hell...

well clearly not all folks enter a grave , so that is not good enough a translation... but 'hades' only represents a virtual, imaginary 'place of the dead' ... clearly the body is recycled to the earth and the spirit returns to God, there is nothing else to go anywhere else :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

it is just a manner of speaking to say that souls go somewhere at death when in fact life ends and begins again in resurrection BY MEANS of the spirit ...

witness that Jesus' soul too 'went to hell' , so it is clearly NOT the place many conceive it to be because of tales of sinners...

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[strangertoo]

So my use of color didnt bother you enough to abstain from answering, eh? That's nice, shows you are growing a bit.

your lack of consideration of others is noted, now please stop acting the fool and just discuss without the woeful dialogue about your faith in your deceptions...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is a detailed answer, which will require a detailed response. I will do it when I get time to do it, so please be patient. I have obligations to meet today, maybe this evening, maybe tomorrow.

please don't rush into anything , despite your zeal for the words of sinners , the Truth of God will wait on us all...

It actually cracks me up that you think to correct me. Scriptural correction must always be considered, but opinionated or observational correction, is in one ear - out the other...

that's quite funny for once coming from your closed mind , but as you see, I always quote the scripture , so it is that which you are ignoring , God's word [however sad the translation is in places] ,not me ...unlike yourself who borrows the words of sinners and so is deceived by faith in sinners of mass religion, which is so different from faith in Love, faith in God and Jesus...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

remember it is the many who are deceived, the many who are mistaken about who is God in this life -Rev 13:3-4 - and are destroyed -Matt 7:13

In just browsing your answer I will humbly admit that I did not think in terms of fullness on some of my replies... but I will in a deeper way, address that in my reply...

one day God will show you what humility actually means, and I weep for you on that day ...

Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

 

[WillieH]

your lack of consideration of others is noted, now please stop acting the fool and just discuss without the woeful dialogue about your faith in your deceptions...

FIRST --- This response does not surprise me in the least. I believe it is YOU which is the one, inconsiderate. I use color for 2 basis reasons... one in RESPECT of the HOLY NAMES, and two in RESPECT of the notation of HOLY SCRIPTURE. That you do not like my RESPECT toward them, is a matter that does not affect me in the slightest.


However, you have fully displayed that my use of color is not the INHIBITING factor about which you OVER EXAGGERATE it to be.


SECOND --- Woeful dialogue? My faith is in GOD, whether it be REVEALED in some areas or VEILED. I am the first to admit that I do not know everything... which is why I enjoy the search, and recieve the JOYS of Revelation according to will of the MERCIFUL and PEACEFUL God that I believe in...


Calling me a FOOL is not a good idea, which you shall one day discover -- Matt 5:22

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

It is the MANY which fall into deception my friend -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- for FEW actually deliver the GOSPEL of PEACE (and COMPLETE VICTORY of the cross of JESUS CHRIST -- Col 1:20) to this world, a number to which you are NOT enjoined.

please don't rush into anything , despite your zeal for the words of sinners , the Truth of God will wait on us all...

that's quite funny for once coming from your closed mind

The Pharisees thought as do you... that JESUS was "nuts"... But we both know WHO got the last chuckle on that issue, now don't we?

but as you see, I always quote the scripture , so it is that which you are ignoring , God's word [however sad the translation is in places] ,not me ...unlike yourself who borrows the words of sinners

I quote quite often Scripture as well (as this post duly reflects). Quotation of Scripture does not equate to TRUTH... as there are MANY different observations of the very same writings...


What words of what sinners? I did not "borrow" their words, I gave points to research. There are a FEW out in the space called CYBER that actually have come to KNOW TRUTH... I just pointed you in their direction, which you choose not to observe, which is fine with me.


That I gave you a link or two, which you are to lazy to research, does not affect me one way or the other.

and so is deceived by faith in sinners of mass religion, which is so different from faith in Love, faith in God and Jesus...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

remember it is the many who are deceived, the many who are mistaken about who is God in this life -Rev 13:3-4 - and are destroyed -Matt 7:13

one day God will show you what humility actually means, and I weep for you on that day ...

You would rather I be inconfident concerning the LOVE of God?


Hey, if that's your bag bro, then you are more than welcome to my share of said inconfidence. As for me, ...I come BOLDY before the THRONE of GRACE -- Heb 4:16 -- because I fully KNOW the one which sits upon it, intimately...


That you misunderstand the verses you quote, is example of more of your misled usage of Scripture, which seeks OTHER than PEACE, and brings OTHER than the GOSPEL to those unto whom you speak, ...immersed in the misled and VEILED suggestion and usage of them.


Concerning "humility", ...you know EXACTLY NOTHING of me, nor of the HUMILITIES I have undergone in life before my Father YHVH. My beliefs are certainly OTHER than mainstream... and that is due to 37 years of research, prayer and diligent study of the Scriptures.


That my beliefs are disaligned with yours does not equate them to be VEILED in any way. Other than the belief that JESUS CHRIST is our Savior, ...I disagree with ALL points of ORTHODOX christianity.


I have no doubt that many of your current beliefs find themselves aligned with ORTHODOXY. But hey... that is the decision of YHVH God which set our pathways forth LONG before we walked the first step of them -- Isaiah 46:10 -- as part of the "things not yet DONE"...


If you were truly wise, you would KNOW that we walk forth, according to HIS DESIGN... not according to the FALLACY and VANITY of SELF -- Ecc 1:2, 14 -- which most entertain as originating of "their choices"... thinking that YOU decide life and death... that YOU decide to be SAVED... that YOU pick your own destiny... etc... ALL these and more, are VANITIES which you embrace, and which one day you shall SEE as the VANITIES they are... when your eyes are opened by He which gives SIGHT.

Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You would do MUCH better to read the Scriptures to seek and to find in them -- Isaiah 61:3 -- the MAJESTY of the LOVE of GOD, which brings us unto, "BEAUTY for ASHES", in the stead of threatening those whom GOD LOVES in the DISTORTED and misled usage of His WORD, ...which puts the cart before the horse, and brings them, ...ASHES for BEAUTY my friend...


As with most that are blind, you attempt to utilize the Scriptures to THREATEN men (which God so loves), instead of embracing the PEACE, LOVE and MERCY which LIVE within them. I shall leave you with this thought :


PEACE... ...willieH

 

[strangertoo]

When you stop sinning, God will baptise you to know His Truth ... then you too will see the lies of Satan in mass religion that Jesus said must happen before his return ... Rev 13:3-4 ...no amount of posturing will make any difference then, as now ... God will teach all , not men ...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

no-one under grace teaches anyone but sinners :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

the FIRST step in to stop sinning at water baptism , this is the foundation, without which one cannot be baptised of the spirit and so cannot get into the kingdom :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so stop sinning and get baptised , else not saved until one does, then come back with knowledge from God ...

as for the word 'fool' it means god-less and that is what sinners are :-

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

thus by definition one is a fool to follow Satan as a sinner.... and fools oneself if one thinks this can be following Jesus in Love... sin is abuse of others [and oneself], disobedience to God and Jesus who command Love, no sin....

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi S2...

When you stop sinning, God will baptise you to know His Truth

Who are you (a sinner) to determine me (a sinner)?


You KNOW NOTHING of me at all! Since you think YOU determine my "sin"... please share with us all, ...of what "sin" do YOU "see", that I partake?


Is it that you percieve my "sin" to be found in my disagreement with you? If you cannot name this "sin", then you FALSELY ACCUSE... and we all know where such ACCUSATIONS come from, now don't we, S2?

...then you too will see the lies of Satan in mass religion that Jesus said must happen before his return ... Rev 13:3-4 ...no amount of posturing will make any difference then, as now ... God will teach all , not men ...

You quote symbolic language which is pertinent to ALL MEN at ALL TIMES... "satan", is NOT what you percieve... You criticize the mass religion, yet adopt the visions it has. Here in particular "satan".

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I do not argue at all -- that ALL are "taught" of GOD. However...


You seem to fail to recognize that GOD gave GIFTINGS unto the "church" which have specific duties amidst the structure of the BODY... one of which is TEACHING within and without, the "BODY" -- 1 Cor 12:28 -- Only TEACHING which finds itself completely submitted to GOD is the TEACHING come ...from... GOD. Whenever a man over-esteems himself, then the "TEACHING" ceases to be from above.


The verse before the one you quote above, is as follows:


John 6:44 -- NO man ...CAN... COME unto Me, except the Father which sent Me, draw Him, and I will raise him on the last day.


So NO MAN, can have a gift to "TEACH", unless that man is first drawn, and then REVEALED -- Matt 11:17 -- And even then, only when DIVINE HUMILITY is found within the man which seeks to SERVE -- Luke 22:26-27 -- does he actually TEACH the TRUTH.

no-one under grace teaches anyone but sinners :-

YHVH chooses those who come unto the WORD, and only the Savior reveals to those whom HE chooses to reveal the TRUTH -- Matt 11:27 -- that lies within that WORD.


Please, spare me the "holier than thou" trip ...As you perch your [pharisee] self above those who you percieve "publicans", and think to determine the worth and state, of those (you percieve as) below YOU (as seen here -- Luke 18:10-14)... You misquote and misunderstand.


ALL are sinners -- Rom 7:25 -- that you fancy yourself SIN-LESS is the deception of the wickedness of your own HEART, which in this fashion has not overcome the FLESH which is called, YOU! -- Jer 17:9

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

the FIRST step in to stop sinning at water baptism , this is the foundation, without which one cannot be baptised of the spirit and so cannot get into the kingdom :-

Please... I was "water baptized" 37 years ago.


"so one cannot get into the kingdom"? You miss the (spiritual) points entirely, S2. The KINGDOM of GOD is within YOU! -- 1 Cor 6:19 -- 2 Cor 6:16 --1 Cor 4:16


You don't "get into the kingdom", the "Kingdom" "gets into" ...YOU.


You are, as are so many others... treading water on the SURFACE of the OCEAN of the SPIRIT, and determining that your vision of the SURFACE is the DEPTH of the OCEAN!


Do you know of, and can you describe the BAPTISM of FIRE, S2? ...When is it? ...Where is it? ...what is its PURPOSE?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Think about it S2 ...let's REASON!

(1) - God KNOWETH ALL THINGS ---- 1 John 3:20 -- and, --
(2) - ALL THINGS are EMERGENT from Him -- John 1:3 -- and, --
(3) - ALL THINGS are by Him and for Him -- Col 1:16 -- and, --
(4) - ALL things are therefore, HIS -- 1 Cor 6:19-20 -- 1 Tim 2:6


So how might ANYONE escape being, ...His? Or how might ANYONE or ANYTHING escape being KNOWN by ...Him?


And even then, ...how can ANY of us, escape INIQUITY without His help? PAUL noted, that He stepped aside in His life -- Gal 2:20 -- and that it was no longer HE which lived, but CHRIST lived IN HIM. Why do you suppose Paul did this, S2? If you don't know then read -- Rom 7


ALL Scripture is PROPHETIC in nature. It speaks of the END as if it were the BEGINNING... for ALL THINGS emerge -- Isaiah 46:10 -- from the END which IS also, ...the BEGINNING! (CHRIST ...IS... (not "will" be) the Alpha and Omega -- Rev 1:8)


In the END, all are HIS... and ALL shall DEPART from INIQUITY, for He which is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS [sinners] -- Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:7 -- Eph 6:9 -- Prov 28:21 -- (and 7 others) -- shall, within the shaping of HIS HAND -- Rom 9:21-23 -- remove them each from iniquity... for ALL shall "name" the name of JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- in due time.

so stop sinning and get baptised , else not saved until one does, then come back with knowledge from God

You only display that you do not KNOW anything whatsoever, about me.


I was baptised July 9, 1976... and am BAPTISED in FIRE. As far as "stopping sin"... there are ways known only to GOD, that sin appears in the flesh in my members, of which I am not conscious. You have not departed INIQUITY. You have only adopted your own form of RELIGION which uses YOURSELF as the "standard" of judgment, and seeks the comparing of me to that "standard".


What SIN is present in my life, S2? Quit beating around the bush. If you are the PROPHET of GOD, which you percieve you are, then name my "SIN"!

as for the word 'fool' it means god-less and that is what sinners are :-

It is also a word that YOU are instructed NOT to use, especially toward a brother -- Matt 5:22 -- You herein, push the Horse with the cart!


If indeed God has CALLED you, S2, ...then you would KNOW that you are to be BRINGING the GOSPEL which is the message of GRACE ...unto the WORLD, not to be JUDGING the WORLD, for not HAVING knowledge of HIS GRACE!

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love....

Where is your "LOVE" for me, S2? You (without knowledge) determine me a "sinner", and in contrast, I wish you His PEACE in each message I write (including this one), ...and then you insist upon me that "I need to be baptized"? (which I have long, long ago experienced, ...and then assume I do not KNOW CHRIST?) That your idea of effective witness and the display of LOVE?

1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I guess you consider yourself "born of God", eh? Is not everyone "born of God"? Who else produces human life? The WORD "makes everything that is made" -- John 1:3 -- so ALL things are the "products" of the MAKER called YHVH God... which utilized His WORD to bring them forth = birth.


Until the FLESH of CORRUPTION is sown -- 1 Cor 15:42-44 -- then it cannot be RAISED in INCORRUPTION. What you fail to comprehend my dear brother is that we are IN PROCESS our entire lives -- Rom 9:21 -- and only until the COMPLETION of the PROCESS, we remain in battle with the FLESH as Paul witnessed being WAGED, within himself -- Rom 7:25


"OVER-ESTEEMING" -- 2 Cor 10:12 -- occurs in MOST, and we are clearly instructed to remain HUMBLE within our callings of YHVH and His GOSPEL, ...to seek to SERVE -- Matt 20:27 -- those who are yet to KNOW Him ...


NOT... to ENLARGE ourSELVES in their presence as we witness. (batting them over the head with our own good and spiritual, experiences... as if WE are in any way, more than THEY!)


ANGELS have often appeared in the course of Human history, and always direct WORSHIP toward God. If ANYONE, "over-esteems" him/herself... then SELF "worship" is afoot.

thus by definition one is a fool to follow Satan as a sinner.... and fools oneself if one thinks this can be following Jesus in Love... sin is abuse of others [and oneself], disobedience to God and Jesus who command Love, no sin....

Actually "SIN" means to "miss the mark"... look it up bro! -- #G264 [root] / #G266


SIN is that which (within A LIFE scenario), falls SHORT of the glory of God.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Guess you believe in "beings" called "devils" dontcha? I do not.


I believe the "devils" spoken of in Scripture, ...are the thoughts and actions which, when engaged, ...MISS the MARK - in submission to the FLESH, in the stead of submission to the COMMAND of GOD, ...and accordingly falls SHORT of the glory of GOD, as we walk the pathway of life upon this earth.


SIN is not some worship or "following" of mythical "beings" which OTHRODOXY proposes -- (1) went bad in a PERFECT scenario and -- (2) were cast onto this earth after a "WAR" took place in the PERFECT realm of Heaven. What is to prevent the same (fallacy) from RE-OCCURING?


That makes no reasonable -- Isaiah 1:18 -- sense whatsoever... but that is another discussion.


You are however welcome to believe any ORTHODOX myths, as you so choose.


As always, ...wishing you HIS:


PEACE... ...willieH

 

[strangertoo]

why do you say I am a sinner my friend , that is God's call ... and I only show that scripture shows you are a sinner because you quote and follow Satan's lies in mass religion, not the whole scripture... it makes no difference to me , only to you

your sin is not from my perception directly, nor do I care to judge, but the scripture does give the signs of your speaking against the Truth of God , your following mass religion's deceptions that Jesus says must be corrupted by Satan -Rev 13:3-4 - so that is because you have thus not been baptised to know the Truth from God [else we should agree , being taught by one God] which shows you still sin, doesn't it ? ... but it is no concern of mine , just revealed by scripture on basis of what you say...

You quote symbolic language which is pertinent to ALL MEN at ALL TIMES... "satan", is NOT what you percieve... You criticize the mass religion, yet adopt the visions it has. Here in particular "satan".

as in Ezek 28, Satan , like the other cherubim, manifests as a man, and indeed dies as a man just as Jesus did ... is that not 'real' enough?

I do not argue at all -- that ALL are "taught" of GOD.

Joel 2:28 , John 16:13 ... all are taught by God Himself who enter the kingdom :-

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You seem to fail to recognize that GOD gave GIFTINGS unto the "church"

the 'church' of God is the saints, no sinners, scattered worldwide doing what Jesus commanded , looking for the children of the house of Israel amongst the gentiles where God scattered their fathers thousands of years ago ... but you did not read this ?

nor ever work out that there can be only about two thousand saints in the church of God at any one time in this earth [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]

Only TEACHING which finds itself completely submitted to GOD is the TEACHING come ...from... GOD. Whenever a man over-esteems himself, then the "TEACHING" ceases to be from above.

only saints baptised of the spirit are qualified to teach , and they teach only sinners, as they have no need to teach the saints, the church of God as God does that ... READ the new covenant , I am weary of saying it... how can you pretend to know anything about God without reading the new covenant -Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8-12 - note that no-one under grace is taught by anyone under grace because God teaches all His own... note that the new covenant is only with those whose fathers broke the old covennat ...

the weep at you refusal to learn from the scripture because you let pride in your faith in suinners get in your way... that is foolishness of sinners , common in mass religion of sinners, but only their sin stops them being baptised into knowing the Truth from God directly -John 16:13

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

you sin is no concern of mine, it is your problem that keeps you from knowing teh Truth from God ... and you are locked into it by believing in sinners BEFORE baptism of the spirit , you decided on faith in men before seeing taht if one stops sinning then God will give the Truth Himself for free ...a gift... but God cannot get in past faith in sin, faith in what sinners teach already worldwide towards Satan the man of sin, son of perdition, a real man on earth, just as Jesus was a real man on earth...

The verse before the one you quote above, is as follows:


John 6:44 -- NO man ...CAN... COME unto Me, except the Father which sent Me, draw Him

So NO MAN, can have a gift to "TEACH", unless that man is first drawn, and then REVEALED -- Matt 11:17 -- And even then, only when DIVINE HUMILITY is found within the man which seeks to SERVE -- Luke 22:26-27 -- does he actually TEACH the TRUTH.

unfortuantely for your myth, Satan draws sinners to teach worldwide in countless DIVERSE groups ... just consider how many of them even could be TRUE ... one , possibly NONE ... stop sinning and God will show you too that the answer is indeed NONE ... as one could even determine by reading ALL the [originally-worded] scripture as ONE Truth , not cherry-picking bits and ignoring the rest as every group of sinners does...

YHVH chooses those who come unto the WORD, and only the Savior reveals to those whom HE chooses to reveal the TRUTH -- Matt 11:27 -- that lies within that WORD.

Yes indeed, and they are ALL saints [Jude 1;14], none still sinners

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Jesus COMMANDS Love of saints, sin is unloving abuse of others, it is not allowed in God's own -Ezek 18:24

Please stick to the topic, you are ranging into making meaningless unloving personal attacks instead of discussion from scripture

ALL are sinners -- Rom 7:25 -- that you fancy yourself SIN-LESS is the deception of the wickedness of your own HEART, which in this fashion has not overcome the FLESH which is called, YOU! -- Jer 17:9

Paul had a 'thorn' of sin in his side, it does NOT mean no-one is righteous , the bible speaks of the righteous many times [but it is God who decides who to forgive their sins,looking on our hearts of desire, to Love or to sin, not us ]

so stop getting personal and look at the scripture

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Revelation 22:11 .... and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Please... I was "water baptized" 37 years ago.

few people [Matt 7:14] take water baptism seriously and STOP sinning as is their promise in true water baptism, to 'die' to the old ways of sin ...

"so one cannot get into the kingdom"? You miss the (spiritual) points entirely, S2. The KINGDOM of GOD is within YOU! -- 1 Cor 6:19 -- 2 Cor 6:16 --1 Cor 4:16

rather you misquote scripture, the kingdom of God is ONLY in the saints as these scriptures refer to only saints ... not in sinners who indeed follow Satan, not Jesus :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

one cannot serve God as a saint and Satan as a sinner ... any sin makes one servant of Satan ... grace is only for those who change masters at water baptism, remission of past sins :-

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

all who are God's STOP SINNING :-

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

You don't "get into the kingdom", the "Kingdom" "gets into" ...YOU.

the kingdom cannot get into you until you stop sinning , it is SEALED out until you depart from iniquity :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

You are, as are so many others... treading water on the SURFACE of the OCEAN of the SPIRIT, and determining that your vision of the SURFACE is the DEPTH of the OCEAN!

no my friend, the MANY are destroyed for sin [Matt 7:13] for still being sinners at Jesus return ... the many are sinners , so please stick to scripture and leave out the flowery misconceptions

Jesus rejects the many for not having stopped sinning :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

So it is yourself who has failed to even read and take in ALL the scripture about sinners ...

Do you know of, and can you describe the BAPTISM of FIRE, S2? ...When is it? ...Where is it? ...what is its PURPOSE?

I already showed you, it is the trial which perfects Love in life , but WHY have you not read all these scriptures ??? :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Matt 4:1 [Jesus baptism of fire after his baptism in water and of the spirit] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

 

[strangertoo]

... how might ANYONE escape being, ...His? Or how might ANYONE or ANYTHING escape being KNOWN by ...Him?

No-one does , but indeed many sin and so cannot be taken to Him in translation free of death [salvation] until they learn not to sin, but to Love in obedience to Jesus, in life...

And even then, ...how can ANY of us, escape INIQUITY without His help? PAUL noted, that He stepped aside in His life -- Gal 2:20 -- and that it was no longer HE which lived, but CHRIST lived IN HIM. Why do you suppose Paul did this, S2? If you don't know then read -- Rom 7

God is raedy to help at any time, but requires one to choose Love over sin, Jesus over Satan... FIRST ... Love can only be given freely, so one must always CHOOSE between sin and Love, Satan or Jesus ... that is baptism of fire, trial of Love which perfects in few saints in THIS life , in all eventually

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

ALL Scripture is PROPHETIC in nature. It speaks of the END as if it were the BEGINNING... for ALL THINGS emerge -- Isaiah 46:10 -- from the END which IS also, ...the BEGINNING! (CHRIST ...IS... (not "will" be) the Alpha and Omega -- Rev 1:8)

indeed , even the end of this universe , earth and heavens , is only the beginning of the next [and no-one knows anything in death as Solomon revealed in case it isn't obvious]

the spirit which is creator and God is all there is ... creates worlds which begin and end , endlessly creates worlds which end ...

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

and just to prove the point about righteousness to Love being REAL :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

NO SIN allowed in Jesus' kingdom come in the new earth... so now you know why he takes none still sinners at his return

In the END, all are HIS... and ALL shall DEPART from INIQUITY, for He which is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS [sinners] -- Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:7 -- Eph 6:9 -- Prov 28:21 -- (and 7 others) -- shall, within the shaping of HIS HAND -- Rom 9:21-23 -- remove them each from iniquity... for ALL shall "name" the name of JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- in due time.

indeed, but then obviously mankind CAN stop sinning and will FREELY stop sinning and God will JUDGE when EACH is raedy for the kingdom by WHEN they stop desiring to sin, choose Love...

You only display that you do not KNOW anything whatsoever, about me.

seriously my friend, this discussion is NOT about YOU or me, we are discussing the scripture.... it won't work unless you stop taking it personally ... and I know how deep is the matter of sin, and it is personal BETWEEN God and men, but that has no place here ...

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi S2...


Sorry it took so long to get you a reply to this post, but God had called my witness, to be working elsewhere recently.

No-one does , but indeed many sin and so cannot be taken to Him in translation free of death [salvation] until they learn not to sin, but to Love in obedience to Jesus, in life...

Hmmm... upon what Scriptures do you base this ("free of death"/salvation) assertion?


Men are APPOINTED once to DIE ("soul death" -- Ez 18:20 -- Heb 9:27) then the JUDGMENT -- which results in the 2nd death of the flesh occurs in all) -- 1 Cor 15:42-49 -- Rev 21:8 -- Psalm 116:11 -- Rom 3:4 -- No man IS, or EVER WILL BE, "free of DEATH"! (and that includes Enoch and Elijah )


You will likely suggest (as do most concerning this subject) that JESUS clearly noted in -- John 6:35 -- "he that believeth in Me shall NEVER DIE" -- but this can only be a surface understanding of this verse, for to take it at SURFACE value and apply it to ALL other Scripture, ...then so many Scriptures become COMPROMISED, that it is hard to even begin to list them... but FYI -- here are just a FEW of them -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- Rom 6:23 -- Rom 5:12 -- Rom 5:18 -- not to mention, EVERY sinner must DIE of the soul upon the DAY in which he/she eats -- Gen 2:17

The word NEVER means "NOT AT ANY TIME". To apply His words ad of this tainted EARTHLY plane, cannot be the true application of what He said, for ALL are appointed to DIE in this EARTHLY plane (by God) -- Heb 9:27 -- and ALL endure the 2nd death as well -- Rev 20:6 -- If you ever said ANYTHING that was not the most pure and HOLY TRUTH, then you are a LIAR -- Rom 3:4 -- which is immersed in the "Lake of FIRE" (which is this EARTH)... and which IS the 2nd death.

God is raedy to help at any time, but requires one to choose Love over sin, Jesus over Satan... FIRST ... Love can only be given freely, so one must always CHOOSE between sin and Love, Satan or Jesus ... that is baptism of fire, trial of Love which perfects in few saints in THIS life , in all eventually

You do not FINISH "your" FAITH, because of YOURSELF and that which YOU "DO", S2! ...as you have no faith whatsoever, which is of YOURSELF -- Eph 2:8 -- it is CHRIST which both establishes and completes HIS "FAITH" ...within you -- Heb 12:2


No man of himself and his own doings (as you suggest), EVER "overcomes", ...but ALL MEN ("eventually") submit to the ONE that did overcome (for all of them) -- Gal 2:20 -- And IN HIM, does each one "overcome".


The only application of -- John 6:35 -- that makes any REASONABLE sense -- Isaiah 1:18 -- is that ALL LIFE is ETERNALLY safe within the CROSS of CHRIST. Which YHVH reconciles ALL THINGS, unto His PEACE.


We are ALL, part and portions of the "LIVING" KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...


ADAM indeed ...DIED... (of soul) on the DAY he ate (as did you the same) -- Gen 2:17 -- Ez 18:20 -- yet, he continued to LIVE (in the flesh of sin -- Rom 7:23) for a total of 930 years -- Gen 5:5-- (as do you continue to "live" until DEATH takes that life from you)


The "NEVER" of which JESUS spoke was NOT related in any way, to this EARTHLY, SINFUL and DEATHFUL plane... it is referring to the HEAVENLY and ETERNAL plane, to as stated in -- John 6:35


Believe what you will.


ALL believers before, during, and after the life of CHRIST, DIE in FAITH -- Heb 11:13 -- having not having received -- Heb 11:40 -- the PROMISE -- + Heb 11 - entire chapter -- which "FAITH" ...is the FAITH of JESUS -- Rev 14:12 -- Eph 2:8-10 -- ALL FAITH -- Heb 12:2 -- is His and OF HIM, ...NOT ours, and of us.


I'll stop here and finish the post later...


PEACE... ...willieH

 

[WillieH]

indeed , even the end of this universe , earth and heavens , is only the beginning of the next [and no-one knows anything in death as Solomon revealed in case it isn't obvious]

Your views are taken from a LITERAL standpoint. GOD is not going to destroy the Universe! Why in heavens name should He do that? He is about REVERSING that which has been set in (His DECLARED -- Isaiah 46:10) motion... which is the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... as has displayed its corrosiveness, within the entirety of the CREATED realm of TIME.


The word "RECONCILED" in -- Col 1:20 -- is -- #G604 -- apokatallasso -- which in part, is derived from -- #G575 -- apo -- which means to REVERSE. It does not imply that GOD shall "wipe out" the UNIVERSE, because SIN once existed in it. You therein, cling to ORTHODOXY's fallacies about the Creator, and what He actually DOES as He process the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...


When a man becomes a SINNER... he has become "destroyed" as the term "LOST" (Gk - Apollumi -- #G622 = destroyed) denotes in -- Luke 15:4-32 -- concerning the LOST, COIN, SHEEP and SON... EACH of these are become separated from their owner, but eventually in due time, ...ALL are become FOUND! (restored, by reversing the "Lost/Destroyed" condition).


In these parables, the objects are not "destroyed" as in OBLITERATED... they are "destroyed" as in MISSING... which is what the word "SIN" implies (which means "miss the mark")... when something is APART/SEPARATED from its owner, it is no longer available to be enjoyed, loved, etc.


When this "LOST" condition enters... GOD does not OBLITERATE the man which has SINNED... He CONVERTS/REVERSES this "MISSING" condition.


To take the ORTHODOX position of GOD actually OBLITERATING that which He once called "VERY GOOD" ...would be like beginning with a CLEAN KITCHEN... and if it got "DIRTY", completely DESTROY it and build another one... which makes NO REASONABLE sense whatsoever. What DOES make sense, ...is to CLEAN that which has become DIRTY. Which is indeed, once this is all said and done, what He shall have DONE.


GOD's creation was VERY GOOD in His own words -- Gen 1:31 -- His Divine Creation does not need to be OBLITERATED/DESTROYED... it needs the "very good" to be REVERSED/RESTORED.


GOD is in the Creation business, and HIS TESTIMONY is SIMPLE -- Psalm 19:7 -- and in His way, His REVERSAL [reconciliation] of us, is to make a FRIEND of what was once, an ENEMY... which within that process, DESTROYS the "enemy" factor that was once present. Example of this process is clearly testified in -- Matt 5:38-48 -- Rom 9:25

the spirit which is creator and God is all there is ... creates worlds which begin and end , endlessly creates worlds which end ...

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

FIRST -- The words in REVELATION are symbolic... your vision of them, is LITERAL...


SECOND -- Sorry, but your use of the word "endlessly creates worlds which end" above, is your own LIMITED/FINITE-NESS speaking. Where in the WORD does it say this: "endlessly creates worlds which end" ?


GOD creates a NEW HEAVEN (in each of us) -- which is the HEART/SPIRIT of man that is changed/reversed from being WICKED above ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- to being INCORRUPT/SPIRITUAL -- 1 Cor -- and,


A NEW EARTH -- which "EARTH" has returned to DUST due to its involvement in SIN -- Gen 3:19 -- by RAISING that "EARTH" up in INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:42-44

and just to prove the point about righteousness to Love being REAL :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

NO SIN allowed in Jesus' kingdom come in the new earth... so now you know why he takes none still sinners at his return

If you will just read what I just noted unto you, then you shall know this statement you just made is empty of TRUTH. The CHANGE/REVERSAL of men (without respect/partiality to them -- Prov 30:6 -- Acts 10:34 -- Heb 11:13), which involves ALL MEN, ...has occured, are occuring and will occur, until the end of the LAST DAY.

indeed, but then obviously mankind CAN stop sinning and will FREELY stop sinning and God will JUDGE when EACH is raedy for the kingdom by WHEN they stop desiring to sin, choose Love...

You have somewhat devised your own belief S2, ...part of which is not founded in the Scriptures, rather is immersed in your personal speculation. That you believe you have "stopped sinning", is but a deception of your own heart -- Jer 17:9


Even the Apostle Paul (which spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- 2 Tim 3:16) ...did not have the audacity to make such a claim, as have you,


He clearly testified/and admitted (within his own experience) to the BATTLE presently going on within -- Rom 7:14-25 -- which raged (warring) in his "members" -- Rom 7:16-17 -- even though His heart's desire was to omit it, and remove it -- Rom 7:22 -- the BATTLE/WAR STILL remained -- Rom 7:21, 25

seriously my friend, this discussion is NOT about YOU or me, we are discussing the scripture.... it won't work unless you stop taking it personally

If you do not wish "personal" things to enter, then do not speak of them.


And as far as discussing SCRIPTURE... if we are truly dedicated to understanding it, I do not see how in the remotest sense, the applications of that understanding can be OTHER than "PERSONAL".

... and I know how deep is the matter of sin, and it is personal BETWEEN God and men, but that has no place here ...

It has a place if you give it one, brother. Which you have...



PEACE... ...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi S2...


Not sure how much of this lengthy post I shall address, but here goes...

why do you say I am a sinner my friend , that is God's call ... and I only show that scripture shows you are a sinner because you quote and follow Satan's lies in mass religion, not the whole scripture... it makes no difference to me , only to you

FIRST --- Hey S2, my current observations on just about EVERY SUBJECT or teaching (with the exception of JESUS as Savior), is in opposition to ORTHODOX positions... Name something concerning my observations, which you believe to be aligned with ORTHODOXY, and I will be happy to address it... as I see it, not as YOU SUPPOSE that I (might) see it.


SECOND --- Right off the top, your statement above, is the ORTHODOX position that "satan" is a BEING, which is omnipresent... I not only oppose that, the thought itself is ridiculous. (As does OTHRODOXY, ...Do you believe in "fallen angels" too? Or maybe in "free will"? Or maybe in "going to Heaven"? Or maybe in the "rapture"? Or maybe in "spiritual Israel"? -- NONE of which are in the WORD!)


The Hebrew word "satan", is adversary/adversity... This is found throughout the world, in EVERY experience... but no "OMNIPRESENT" being that supposedly "FELL" from Heaven (which you believe "satan" to be), is responsible for that ADVERSITY. "satan" is a principality which is enacted in and by men, in their every instance, becoming "adversaries" (enemies) to GOD...


GOD is in the "REVERSAL" business bro, ...and wherever an ENEMY appears to GOD, ...that "enemy" shall eventually (according to HIS declaration of their individual pathway (without respect/partiality toward any of them -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:1 -- Prov 21:1 -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Prov 28:21) become a FRIEND. The "destruction" of the "adversary" position is thereby DIVINELY reversed, via the WORK of YHVH and His Son, ...each "adversary" of GOD becomes a "FRIEND" of GOD.

your sin is not from my perception directly, nor do I care to judge, but the scripture does give the signs of your speaking against the Truth of God , your following mass religion's deceptions that Jesus says must be corrupted by Satan -Rev 13:3-4 - so that is because you have thus not been baptised to know the Truth from God [else we should agree , being taught by one God] which shows you still sin, doesn't it ? ... but it is no concern of mine , just revealed by scripture on basis of what you say...

Let's break this one down. You say:

"your sin is not from my perception directly, nor do I care to judge, but the scripture does give the signs of your speaking against the Truth of God"


First ...you, noted you did not "care to judge", but then do so anyway by saying...


Second ..."but the scripture does give the signs of your speaking against the Truth of God" -- failing to note what portions of Scriptural TRUTH, that I (allegedly) "speak against"


Third ...Then you accuse me of "speaking against the truth of God", but do not mention what portion of "TRUTH" which you are referring to... and,


Fourth ...you propose the ASSUMPTION, that for ME to know TRUTH, takes "MY agreement with YOU" ---> "that is because you have thus not been baptised to know the Truth from God [else we should agree , being taught by one God] which shows you still sin, doesn't it ?


Falsely noting and exalting your own observations, as that which IS "TRUTH", and then asserting that anyone which might "disagree" with YOU, is therefore "speaking against the TRUTH of GOD" -- forgive me, but this is quite laughable... while also quite pitiful at the same time...


Fifth ...you accuse me of being in an agreement with "mass religion", and then note YOUR belief in "satan" to be a BEING... which is one of, if not THE greatest (mass) Christian (religion) deception of them all... and,


Sixth ...in all this blab, you thereby deduce SIN to be in me, which is a "JUDGMENT" of me, ...when you began this sorrowful paragraph by (hypocritically) saying you did not "care to judge"... but do so anyway?

as in Ezek 28, Satan , like the other cherubim, manifests as a man, and indeed dies as a man just as Jesus did ... is that not 'real' enough?

As do the MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- (mass religionists), you quote a passage that does NOT at all, mention "satan" (yet YOU insert this word, adding to what IS WRITTEN -- Prov 30:6 -- Deut 4:2)... This text is clearly an address to an actual KING (of TYRUS) -- Ez 28:12 -- Nowhere in Scripture, does the WORD allude that some UNBIBLICAL "fallen angel", masquerades and MANIFESTS -- as a man.


Is that "REAL enough", S2?

Joel 2:28 , John 16:13 ... all are taught by God Himself who enter the kingdom :-

Could not agree with you more... The LORD is our teacher and our guide. And it is HE which reveals -- Matt 11:27 -- according to HIS Divine DECLARATION of us... when and how HE decides to REVEAL.


The biggest problem is that you do not admit to "knowing in part", "seeing through the glass darkly" -- 1 Cor 13:9, 12 -- OFTEN overestimating what (you think) you "know"... then displacing my observations of Scripture by the use of your own PARTIAL and INCOMPLETE observations... fatal flaw.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Again, ...I do not argue with this... The BIRTH of the SPIRIT is found in those who are actually bringing the GOSPEL to the WORLD -- Rom 10:15 -- while NOT esteeming themSELVES more than they SHOULD (which you have done in this post) -- 2 Cor 10:12


And... as they are about doing so, ...they LOVE that which YHVH GOD LOVES... Do you LOVE what GOD LOVES S2?

the 'church' of God is the saints, no sinners, scattered worldwide doing what Jesus commanded , looking for the children of the house of Israel amongst the gentiles where God scattered their fathers thousands of years ago ... but you did not read this ?

nor ever work out that there can be only about two thousand saints in the church of God at any one time in this earth [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]

Again, you are about making LITERAL observation of SYMBOLIC text. I shall not comment on this... as the LORD has not given me to do so.

only saints baptised of the spirit are qualified to teach , and they teach only sinners, as they have no need to teach the saints, the church of God as God does that ... READ the new covenant , I am weary of saying it...

Again you are about presupposing much. Though I have never declared myself a teacher to you... I am submitted unto Him, and wherein HE utilizes the words which I (prayerfully) compose (though those words are IN PART), HE teaches others.


You presuppose that YOU are a teacher... and yet blaspheme and disrespect the WRITTEN WORD... therein disqualifying yourSELF. I shall never do such a thing.

how can you pretend to know anything about God without reading the new covenant -Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8-12 - note that no-one under grace is taught by anyone under grace because God teaches all His own... note that the new covenant is only with those whose fathers broke the old covennat...

FIRST --- At times you are quite funny, ...as you write your insults, S2. ...WAY overesteeming yourself, by comparing yourself (to me) using yourself as that to which I am compared? ...very unwise, bro.


I am a servant. And have DILIGENTLY dedicated myself unto YHVH God (sincerely albeit imperfectly) for 36 years (and counting)... Your "teaching" fails in many areas, and I have pointed those failures out, whether YOU shall recieve them or not (likely not)... and your HUMILITY (sign of one truly "serving") is well, ...quite TOTALLY absent.


SECOND --- I do not "pretend" anything. You started out this post by saying that you "did not care to judge"... and throughout this blab, you have resorted to JUDGMENT on several occasions. Accusing me of "Pretending" is your latest UNFOUNDED judgment, but though I am not yet gone through this (EXTENDED) post, I am quite sure that I shall find MANY more of them.


THIRD --- The GOSPEL (New Covenant of GRACE) is to be preached unto EVERY CREATURE , as it is PERTINENT to EVERY CREATURE -- Mark 16:15 -- and unto ALL NATIONS -- Matt 28:19-20 -- as it is PERTINENT unto ALL NATIONS. That you fail to receive this, will be your undoing (not my problem).


In the end YOU (nor I, nor any other SINNER), if submitted unto GOD, shall TEACH (of themselves) anything about GOD.


GOD is the teacher of ALL. And only when EXACT quotation and reference to His WORD (apart from any ADDITION or SUPPOSITION, or SPECULATION) is given, ...does HIS WORD teach those to whom GOD has given EARS to Hear it -- Matt 11:27


FOURTH --- As do most ORTHODOX believers, ...You stand upon yourSELF, not upon the WORD...


You quote verses, and then INSERT that which you (within your INIQUITY), see fit to ADD to what IS WRITTEN... Certainly in utter DISREGARD of SCRIPTURAL instruction -- Deut 4:2 -- Prov 30:6 -- Rev 22:18 -- which "disregard", disqualifies you from "teaching".



This is getting way too long... I will cease for a moment here, and continue if the LORD should lead me to do so...


PEACE... ...willieH

 

[timewerx]

Obedience gets a bad reputation, though, because it can get associated with legalism, which is a common pitfall. Legalism reduces things to lists of specific rules, so you can get them done and feel ok about yourself. It's based on fear or pride. Jesus teachings, however, should be taken differently. He said: "It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

True on both accounts. After my Spirit baptism, the Holy Spirit changed me into a new creature, my instincts change. I no longer lived for myself but for God and others.

Instinct =/= rules. A different creature has different instincts... A herbivore vs carnivore runs after different things... They do not follow rules. They follow their cravings..... Are you still craving for the things of the flesh or the things of the spirit??

The new instincts the Holy Spirit gave me I never learned from anyone, not even the Bible. It was to my surprise when I read the whole Bible after many years. It's like I've known Jesus, all along!

With respect, the bible is not about our opinions , it about the absolute Truth of God , a 'rod of iron', no use trying to bend it although countless many try

The doctrine most popular today among most Christians today is the doctrine of wealth....

That you can serve God and still be able to enjoy the things, the unbelievers enjoy as well...

An unbeliever is not supposed to be the same creature as one reborn in the Spirit, right?

The Children of God are not the same as the Children of Satan. Right again?

The Children of Satan loves these things they keep praying to their God, to bless them with these things: great career, great wife, great kids, great friends, opportunities to earn more, nice comfy house, nice car, financial stability, great business deals, safety 24/7, great vacation, great weather for their vacation, salvation to their next door neighbors and co-workers so now they could see each other every Sundays too! They follow the will of their God since their God, allows them to have these things and do his Will at the same time, wow!

The unbelievers love those things right?? Do you think someone who is reborn in the spirit puts any value to those things??

Would they even shed a tear if any or all of those things were to be suddenly be gone the next day?

FIRST --- This is simply YOUR observation. This portion of Scripture is given unto ISRAEL and JUDAH. So, in implying that "it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant" -- you imply that no GENTILE is under the covenant of GRACE?

In all my travels and the guidance of the Spirit, YES that is true.

The Gentiles who would willingly want to be under the Covenant is exceedingly few, especially today where Satan's deception is at large.

They constitute a very small percentage of the Christian population today.

If you are not of the JEWISH nation, then GRACE is not applicable to you? I (very seriously) doubt that you actually believe this ... Even if you were MINDED of this, ...what of such as "the SAMARIAN women [John 4] at the well"? She was DEFINITELY not of the JEWISH nation (was an OUTCAST as far as the JEWS were concerned), yet the GRACE of CHRIST was freely given unto her. In John 4:27 the Apostles [which of course were JEWS] questioned Him speaking to her!

Exceedingly most of those who live in the literal Israel nation today, as well as the Jews in USA, Europe, etc do not belong to the 'House of Israel' as quoted in the Bible.

The Samaritan woman was given grace as I've said earlier. She belongs to the exceedingly few Gentiles who would willingly want to be under the Covenant.

FIRST

-- No one is saved by WORKS -- Eph 2:8-9 -- GRACE alone SAVES any and EVERY MAN -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 --

Righteous works will manifest in those who are reborn of the Spirit.

If you still want to get that great career, great house, great family, great friends, great gadgets, etc. You were still craving the same cravings of the unbeliever and was never reborn...

A true rebirth, the change is dramatic. Sadly, the great deception in the world today, among Christianity, you'll never realize. You are quickly drowned in their false doctrines (Even my elect ones will be deceived)

 

[strangertoo]

The doctrine most popular today among most Christians today is the doctrine of wealth....

That you can serve God and still be able to enjoy the things, the unbelievers enjoy as well...

An unbeliever is not supposed to be the same creature as one reborn in the Spirit, right?

The Children of God are not the same as the Children of Satan. Right again?

The Children of Satan loves these things they keep praying to their God, to bless them with these things: great career, great wife, great kids, great friends, opportunities to earn more, nice comfy house, nice car, financial stability, great business deals, safety 24/7, great vacation, great weather for their vacation, salvation to their next door neighbors and co-workers so now they could see each other every Sundays too! They follow the will of their God since their God, allows them to have these things and do his Will at the same time, wow!

The unbelievers love those things right?? Do you think someone who is reborn in the spirit puts any value to those things??

Would they even shed a tear if any or all of those things were to be suddenly be gone the next day?

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

yes my friend, saints obey Jesus' commands , not juts to stop sinning and Love all folks to show their Love of God, but to WORK on God's plan toward the kingdom and salvation of the many later [Rev 7:9-10] , thus they have no time to be married or follow a career ... they must travel the world looking for the lost House of Israel's descendants amongst the gentiles who will be the majority of the next generation of saints, earn their keep as they go, live mostly alone serving the poor , sharing all in abject poverty themselves... most folks prefer sin for now because they do not look or care to look, where it leads almost all men ... Matt 7:13 , 2 Peter 3:10

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[strangertoo]

I have been studying the bible for 50 years with God, not sinners , and know that Jesus told us all the mass churches and religions of men , sinners, will be corrupted by Satan , that this MUST happen [2Thess 2] a whole world under strong delusion allowed by God because this is not the time of salvation of the many [Rev 7:9-10] but of the few of Israel [Rev 7:3-8, Matt 7:13 , Jude 1:14] , those whose fathers broke the old covenant as the new covenant states Jer 31:31-34
so I wonder what you have been doing if you never got around to even reading the new covenant ????

but here is what happens [is already happening] to all the sinners in all the churches of mass religion of this world , as Jesus says it :-

...and all the world wondered after the beast
and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[timewerx]

PEACE...

There are two kinds of peace one is good, and the other one is bad, really bad!

The good one, is when you reconcile fellow brothers together and unbelievers to God (making peace with each other and bringing others to peace with God).

There is also peace in the Kingdom of God.

...And here's the bad form of peace....

The really bad one is making peace with the devil and the things of this world. Being friends and at peace with the Children of Satan which is sadly nearly everyone is!

We are to show mercy, and love, but not be friends with the children of Satan. True love and mercy is not making them comfortable in their sins but in judging them and rebuking them in righteousness and in truth.

If you are truly at peace with God, and at war with the Devil, trust me, you will be persecuted severely even among those who profess to believe!

For the Children of Satan goes after the things of the flesh. It is their nature, it is their food. To take them away from it is like dealing them a death sentence. They will severely hate you!

The Children of God goes after things of the Spirit of the eternal: Righteousness, justice, mercy, long suffering. They don't go after money, possessions, achievements, respect and friendship among men, love of family and friends. They could lose these all in one day and not shed a tear! The fact, is that they have literally abandoned these things, given away their money and possessions literally!!!

The things valuable to the Children of Satan is garbage to the Children of God.

Tough truth. But deception is at large. We can't be soft nowadays.

 

[strangertoo]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a beautiful promise to Israel and Judah of spiritual restoration, presumably in the future.

it is that and more, because Israel's children, descendants of Jacob[rev 7:3-8] are promised by God [Exodus 19:6] to be the kings and priests of the righteous kingdom come in the new earth , so Jesus is king of these kings , high priest of these translated priests of the order of Melchizedek... and who is their congregation ?... clearly few are saved in this earth [Matt 7:14 and all of Israel [most not Jews, but of the lost House of Israel living as gentiles amongst the gentiles where Jesus sent his disciples to find them worldwide ] ... few saved now to be the kings in the kingdom, so they build the kingdom during the millennium whilst the many destroyed in the end of this earth [Matt 7:13] sleep in death till it is rady for all to be freed from hell [Rev 20:13] and countless many later saved [Rev 7:9-10] by WORKS after death frees them from sin [Rom 6:7]

Grace gives us the power to overcome. (Titus 2:11-14)

the power is simply one's Love, and the overcoming is keeping oneself from sinning again... God's help is simply to ensure one knows the Truth of Love [John 16:13] for God is Love [1 John 4:8-16]

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

"Us" being overcomers, not everyone including unbelievers. Only those who are obedient and are righteous through the grace available through Jesus Christ are overcomers.

grace doesn't mean one can sin , God forbid one swallows that lie of religious sinners [Ezek 18:24]:-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

It is a present tense admonition, not a future tense judgment on mankind.

from this I think you misunderstand judgement ... saints are judged worthy of kingship in the kingdom at Jesus' return [past sins forgiven because they stop sinning Romans 3:25], the many are judged worthy of salvation at judgement day by works [Rev 20:13] after all are resurrected from hell[Rev 20:13] , being freed from sin not by grace but by death [Rom 6:7] ... the rest of mankind , the most evil of men and Satan himself, must renounce their belief in sin through two lives in the lake of fire and sue for God's enduring mercy ... that last is definitely the hardest way to be saved, takes longest, most pain from others' sin [the 'fire' which turns men against sin eventually] ... thus judgement is progressive, salvation is in three main stages...

We are presently in the Age of Grace, let us purify ourselves through this precious gift and not neglect it like unbelievers.

purifying oneself is simply to Love folks , not sin any more against them, and all 'unbelievers' will become believers one day, Jesus' promise on that ... so stop thinking that saying one believes can save anyone, Love is something one chooses to do IN PLACE OF sin , sin is not Love and Jesus will take none still sinning at all :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[strangertoo]

There are two kinds of peace one is good, and the other one is bad, really bad!

The good one, is when you reconcile fellow brothers together and unbelievers to God (making peace with each other and bringing others to peace with God).

There is also peace in the Kingdom of God.

...And here's the bad form of peace....

The really bad one is making peace with the devil and the things of this world. Being friends and at peace with the Children of Satan which is sadly nearly everyone is!

We are to show mercy, and love, but not be friends with the children of Satan. True love and mercy is not making them comfortable in their sins but in judging them and rebuking them in righteousness and in truth.

If you are truly at peace with God, and at war with the Devil, trust me, you will be persecuted severely even among those who profess to believe!

For the Children of Satan goes after the things of the flesh. It is their nature, it is their food. To take them away from it is like dealing them a death sentence. They will severely hate you!

The Children of God goes after things of the Spirit of the eternal: Righteousness, justice, mercy, long suffering. They don't go after money, possessions, achievements, respect and friendship among men, love of family and friends. They could lose these all in one day and not shed a tear! The fact, is that they have literally abandoned these things, given away their money and possessions literally!!!

The things valuable to the Children of Satan is garbage to the Children of God.

Tough truth. But deception is at large. We can't be soft nowadays.

Very true ... I would add though that Love is soft and weak , that is it's incredible strength which wins all over in the end ... the world of sin mangles people to shreds , eventually folks see it isn't the bliss they were promised by Satan's crew in charge of this earth -Rev 13:3-4 - too late to save more than a few now [Matt 7:14] ,but from the many destroyed [matt 7:13] all are resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] , Jesus blasting the myth of 'eternal hell' to smithereens with that one, and freed from sin by death [Rom 6:7] not grace , again the myth blown apart of mass religion, the many are saved LATER then and by WORKS after resurrection to the kingdom [Rev 20:13] in the righteous new earth, righteous to God's Law of Love of Jesus' commandment - for Jesus finally rules in his kingdom in the new earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

2 Peter 3:13 ...we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

thus most folks are saved by works , only the first few saints of this earth need grace because they need to be trialled to perfect their Love in THIS life ... for they must build the kingdom where many are later saved who clearly are destroyed in this earth as it ends ... the spirit of a man though returns to God whence it came, and it is teh spirit that creates the soul [lifeforce] in a body , so men are resurrected to a new viable body by their endless spirit from God ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

note: BECAME a soul by means of what God gave... the soul [life-force] begins [and ends at death :-

James 2:26 ... the body without the spirit is dead...

it is the spirit that returns to God as God is spirit, not the soul ... the soul begins and ends with life/death, the spirit is endless , of God...

 

[WillieH]

There are two kinds of peace one is good, and the other one is bad, really bad!

Thanks for the "headsup"... ...but as I see it, PEACE is PEACE...

The good one, is when you reconcile fellow brothers together and unbelievers to God (making peace with each other and bringing others to peace with God).

There is also peace in the Kingdom of God.

Been at PEACE for around 12 years... Before that, I was wondering (and searching the Scriptures) as to why a GOD which claims to BE LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and that HE LOVES the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- and it is HE which brought each and every LIFE that has ever been in it, ...into it -- John 1:9 -- To teach ANYONE that He would either ANNHILATE or Torment ETERNALLY, ANY of those beings, which He "LOVES"... is a misrepresentation, and a LIE. (which is WHY, MANY will find their "good works" called INIQUITY ...BY HIM -- Matt 7:22-23)


Well... when I found out the TRUTH... the TRUTH gave me PEACE... through its MESSAGE of LOVE and FREEDOM -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15


But thanks for attempting to teach me, that which I already KNOW.

...And here's the bad form of peace....

Sorry, ...you are welcome to your perceptions, ...but I do not agree that there is a "bad form" of PEACE...

...The really bad one is making peace with the devil and the things of this world. Being friends and at peace with the Children of Satan which is sadly nearly everyone is!

You were once of this world, don't forget where and what you were delivered from... as WELL, have the capacity to pray for those which have not yet recieved this deliverance.


Had one WITNESS, or another (led by JESUS), NOT been "at PEACE" with you, by speaking of HIM ...TO YOU (a sinner), ...then you would not be where you are today.


JESUS often walked into the places... which the RELIGIOUS of His day, criticized! -- Matt 9:10-12 -- Mark 2:16-17 -- He said to them... "it is the SICK which need the Physician"... don't forget, YOU were once numbered amongst them.


If you abstain from contact with and the BEFRIENDING of, those who are in NEED of CHRIST, what good are you to the GOSPEL of GOD, friend?


If you would (truly) FOLLOW Him (and not a "religion" or "religious philosphy"), then you would INDEED, do as did HE, by reaching out to the "UNLOVEABLE" -- Rom 9:25 -- as did GOD, to you. For while you were YET a "sinner", CHRIST died for YOU "timewerx" (the UNGODLY) -- Rom 5:6


We are COMMANDED to preach the GOSPEL to EVERY CREATURE! -- Mark 16:15 -- how many do you percieve are included in the word, ..."EVERY", timewerx?

We are to show mercy, and love, but not be friends with the children of Satan. True love and mercy is not making them comfortable in their sins but in judging them and rebuking them in righteousness and in truth.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? How can you truly show LOVE to someone, and yet not BEFRIEND them?


Btw... Where is this written, "timewerx"? That we are to JUDGE them? -- Matt 7:1 -- and "REBUKE" them? Do you actually think you can walk into a gathering of SINNERS, and SHOUT your own praises before them?


My copy of the WORD says: "go ye into ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them whatsoever I have commanded you" -- Matt 28:19 -- Do you think this shall be accomplished by shouting your REBUKE unto them? Is that how the one that witnessed CHRIST unto you "introduced you to the Lord"?


JESUS "made a friend of you" did He not? WHILE you were a SINNER! Where is the example of JESUS, teaching SINNERS (not ones that were "religious") in this manner?


As I see it, ...The WAY an enemy is BEST (and Divinely) "DESTROYED", is by converting that "enemy" into a FRIEND. Thereby DESTROYING any existent animosity, between you! =

If you are truly at peace with God, and at war with the Devil, trust me, you will be persecuted severely even among those who profess to believe!

I am not a WAR with ..."the devil" (a false entity)... and I do not see that we are instructed to engage "the devil" in a "WAR". We are SENT and instructed to TEACH the GOSPEL... and that is exactly what I do on a daily basis... here it is:


1 Tim 2:3-6 -- 3 for THIS is good and ACCEPTABLE in the SIGHT of GOD our Savior -- 4 who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to COME to the knowledge of the TRUTH -- 5 For there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and men, the MAN, ...CHRIST JESUS; 6 who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED in due time...

2 Pet 3:9 -- The Lord is NOT SLACK concerning His PROMISE, as SOME MEN count SLACKNESS; but is Longsuffering to us-ward, ...NOT WILLING that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD come to REPENTENCE.


This GOOD and ACCEPTABLE teaching, is that which I preach to any that I encounter... including you.


Please, if you would, ...found this "WAR directive" for me, in the WORD.


If I am at "WAR", it is with that which MAKES FALLACY OF (is adversary=satan), and TO, the TRUTH.


There is no such "being" as "the devil"... "satan" is the element and principality of ADVERSITY (certainly NOT a "fallen angel") which is within the flesh of MEN (keeping them enslaved to their flesh -- Rom 7:23), ...which in the name of FALSE representation, comes against the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST... which has IN the PEACE of HIS CROSS, reconciled ALL THINGS -- Col 1:20

For the Children of Satan goes after the things of the flesh. It is their nature, it is their food. To take them away from it is like dealing them a death sentence. They will severely hate you!

YOU were once one of these "children" (of adversity=satan), timewerx... If you deny this, then you deny that CHRIST died for you -- Rom 5:6-8

The Children of God goes after things of the Spirit of the eternal: Righteousness, justice, mercy, long suffering.

This only comes with the DIVINE AUTHORING (generating) and DIVINE FINISHING (completing) of FAITH in any given one -- Heb 12:2 -- until CHRIST generates HIS FAITH in any given person, that person remains trapped within the FLESHLY nature.


CHRIST is the EXPRESSED IMAGE of YHVH God... which means that HE, (as IS YHVH God), ...is WITHOUT RESPECT of PERSONS (IMPARTIAL to ALL) - Prov 28:21 -- Job 34:17 -- 2 Sam 14:14 (& 8 more) --


Therefore, if CHRIST has AUTHORED Himself (and HIS FAITH -- Rev 12:17) in YOU, ...He being IMPARTIAL, shall do the very same for EVERY MAN...

They don't go after money, possessions, achievements, respect and friendship among men, love of family and friends.

Do you go to work, timewerx?
Do you actually accept a PAYCHECK for it?
Do you cash it, and then spend the money?


If you have answered YES to these questions, ...then how can you consider yourself as not "going after money"?


Concerning --- "Money nor possessions, nor achievements, nor respect and friendship among men, love of family and friends" --


NOTHING ...is "UNCLEAN [defiled, unholy] of itself" -- Rom 14:14 -- It is how these (things that you list) are ESTEEMED in proximity to your allegiance to GOD that defines their place in YOUR LIFE -- Matt 10:37 -- NOTHING must be more endearing to a follower, than GOD.


This does not mean that ANY of your list must be eliminated, simply because it has the POTENTIAL to be misplaced BY YOU, within your heart.


One must set ones HEART upon GOD first... then all other things will find their subsequent place within ones life, and each of these things will ALL thereby be SUBMITTED to ones allegiance to GOD.


JOB is the perfect example... GOD was PROUD of JOB! And do not kid yourself, ...JOB was totally ...RICH... in earthly goods -- Job 1:1-22


MONEY is even SPECIFICALLY addressed in the WORD -- 1 Tim 6:10 -- the LOVE of MONEY is the root of all evil, ...NOT "MONEY itself"... the LOVE of money is that which is known to bring forth evil.


Do you attempt the condemn anyone for having MONEY in their possession? Did it not take MONEY to buy INTERNET SERVICE to enable you to POST here? If so, then you thereby condemn yourself.

They could lose these all in one day and not shed a tear! The fact, is that they have literally abandoned these things, given away their money and possessions literally!!!

The things valuable to the Children of Satan is garbage to the Children of God.


Tough truth. But deception is at large. We can't be soft nowadays

I think you had better re-examine your words bro... (sis?) NO offense, but I shall show you via a facetious word, that your position is misled, and unsupported when REASON is applied:


Not that you will do it, but if you do not wish MONEY to be a part of your life, and consider it "WITHOUT VALUE" -- then I can give you an address to send your MONEY to (so you can get rid of its "VALUELESS" presence!).


Hey -- if you indeed are involved in ANY WAY with "money" and truly believe it to be GARBAGE, then don't be a hypocrite!


Don't know how you will, but you had best find a way to feed, clothe, provide INTERNET service (so you can answer this post) and house yourself WITHOUT that "GARBAGE", for you claim you do not wish it to be part of life as it is not "VALUABLE" to you, ...lotsa luck on that one!


The TRUTH is not "tough"! ...the TRUTH is wonderful! However, ...it IS certainly rmisepresented by MOST which claim to be the "professors and teachers" of it -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5


I pray for you dear timewerx, that you shall find the PEACE of GOD, to be a tremendous FRUIT within your life which avails RICHES far beyond your earthly senses (but also do not make you take leave of your "senses") -- Eph 3:19 -- And within that PEACE, ...you shall not throw out "the BABY while, throwing out the bathwater".



May His PEACE... fully be yours... ...willieH

 

[timewerx]

You were once of this world, don't forget where and what you were delivered from... as WELL, have the capacity to pray for those which have not yet recieved this deliverance.


Had one WITNESS, or another (led by JESUS), NOT been "at PEACE" with you, by speaking of HIM ...TO YOU (a sinner), ...then you would not be where you are today.

You can never had real peace with Satan, his children, and the world as a follower of Jesus.

Though you will come in peace (physically) to them delivering the Gospel, Satan and his children will wage war at you. For you are actually waging war against Satan and the kingdom where he is king - our world, the things of this world, the works of man....

We don't wage war vs man but the things in control of them, the things they are addicted to - accomplishments, titles, jobs, education, possessions, pleasures of life, vices, pride, power, strength, deceit of wealth, false doctrines of Satan..

So it's never real peace for it's a one-sided affair. Though you come in peace to man, they will wage war at you for you are waging war against the things they love - the cravings of the flesh.

...If you take the meat away from a wolf, they will kill you. A sheep won't, they won't mind...

Preaching the Gospel, the real one is like taking meat away from wolves to turn them into sheep! For only a new creation can enter the Kingdom of God. One bloody hell of a fight!

JESUS

often walked into the places... which the RELIGIOUS of His day, criticized! -- Matt 9:10-12 -- Mark 2:16-17 -- He said to them... "it is the SICK which need the Physician"... don't forget, YOU were once numbered amongst them.

If you abstain from contact with and the BEFRIENDING of, those who are in NEED of CHRIST, what good are you to the GOSPEL of GOD, friend?[/quote]

In that context, yes, I agree with you. But you will never be real friends of the 'sick' until they get healed.

You are not to avoid the sick. You are to mingle with them, but eventually, they will start to hate you if the Gospel will not change them.

...we are not to waste our time preaching the gospel over and over to people who refuses to change everytime... For others will receive the Good News willingly. Jesus was not successful at winning all his relatives while he is alive, nor did he persistently try to win them into the Gospel for they refuse to have faith. Jesus made good use of his time and effort so kept wandering about to find people who will accept the Truth.

But never stop praying for all to accept the truth.

"A prophet has no honor in his home(hometown)" You'll have much better success elsewhere. Move out people!

If you would (truly) FOLLOW Him (and not a "religion" or "religious philosphy"), then you would INDEED, do as did HE, by reaching out to the "UNLOVEABLE" -- Rom 9:25 -- as did GOD, to you. For while you were YET a "sinner", CHRIST died for YOU "timewerx" (the UNGODLY) -- Rom 5:6


We are COMMANDED to preach the GOSPEL to EVERY CREATURE! -- Mark 16:15 -- how many do you percieve are included in the word, ..."EVERY", timewerx?

In one dramatic personal example. We once had a guy in a church, a Christian church. Everyone would avoid this guy for he was an adulterer..

They even warned me from getting to close to him. But I befriended him anyways, at the cost of others staying away from me too!

I was with him when he renounced his sin of adultery!

Sadly in the end, he got to hate me. Due to my recent revival of the Spirit, I have finally turned all my attention away from the things of this world.

I told him, things like money, financial security, jobs, titles, properties, creating a family don't matter to me anymore, I will not run after those anymore. Though he is a Christian too, he thought that I was really stupid and a loser. He doesn't want to be acquainted with me anymore, even if I still wanted to. It's a sad things not everybody, in fact, most will not accept the true Gospel.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Trusting on your job, your education, your possessions, titles, is a very poor, even total lack of faith even if you profess to be a Christian.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? How can you truly show LOVE to someone, and yet not BEFRIEND them?

Love by throwing them the Bread of Life, not the Bread of the Flesh.

To most, throwing them the Bread of Life will cause them to hate you.

Although Jesus did give physical bread to his followers to satisfy their basic need - food. Then when he gave them the Bread of Life, most left and no longer followed him.

Btw... Where is this written, "timewerx"? That we are to JUDGE them? -- Matt 7:1 -- and "REBUKE" them? Do you actually think you can walk into a gathering of SINNERS, and SHOUT your own praises before them?

Do not judge... For we judge (mostly) according to the flesh. We use the criteria of the flesh. Most, even Christians included are guilty of this trespass. We judge according to appearance, according to smell(hygiene), the way we speak, how well your hair is brushed, what car you drive, which school you went, what your job, your title, your income...

Righteous judgment (judging in the spirit) is different. It doesn't put anything temporal into account. ZERO! You can be the ugliest person, the stinkiest, the worst, ragged clothing, the poorest, the least IQ, it doesn't matter a bit!! Only the things you do for God matters.. You can be the poorest and still out-give the richest! You can be the poorest and have a much greater investment in the Kingdom than the richest!!

If you can judge in the spirit then do!

My copy of the WORD says: "go ye into ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them whatsoever I have commanded you" -- Matt 28:19 -- Do you think this shall be accomplished by shouting your REBUKE unto them? Is that how the one that witnessed CHRIST unto you "introduced you to the Lord"?

That verse is really asking for trouble

How else Jesus were able to drive away many disciples and have only few left to follow him?

How else did Jesus made a rich man go home very sad?

How else did Jesus got so many angry to eventually crucify him?

How else did prophet John got himself martyred as well? This guy called unbelievers serpents and subject to God's wrath. Really insane!

As I see it, ...The WAY an enemy is BEST (and Divinely) "DESTROYED", is by converting that "enemy" into a FRIEND. Thereby DESTROYING any existent animosity, between you! =

Totally agreeable We might have just ended in the wrong context.

However. Still don't waste time on people that won't accept the true Gospel after doing your best. Move on to others but don't stop praying for those who won't accept, let God deal with them thereon

I am not a WAR with ..."the devil" (a false entity)... and I do not see that we are instructed to engage "the devil" in a "WAR". We are SENT and instructed to TEACH the GOSPEL... and that is exactly what I do on a daily basis... here it is:

If the devil is a false entity. You will still be at war - at war against the flesh.

We've been instructed to change wolves into sheeps. We are essentially 'robbing' or teaching the wolf that meat is bad for you. They will hate you for that! They will wage war with you!

There are also sheeps among wolves (the lost sheep of the House of Israel). They will readily accept the Gospel. The true Gospel. They desperately need to hear the true Gospel of the Bread of Life, not the Gospel of meat for it's not meat that they really want.

Do you go to work, timewerx?
Do you actually accept a PAYCHECK for it?
Do you cash it, and then spend the money?


If you have answered YES to these questions, ...then how can you consider yourself as not "going after money"?

No, no, no. I have left my job, sold/left my possessions except this computer I use. I have little left in the bank just enough to meet my basic needs for couple of months.

I got my last job, my titles, and my possessions over the will of my flesh so I left them. I was a Christian already back then and thought I was doing God's will when it's my heart's will, the deceptiveness of the human heart.... They used to be my idols (without knowing due to the great deception of the enemy) so I have to abandon them.

I'd love to start anew with God. Those former things amount to absolutely nothing! What the world calls stupid, God calls faith.

If God gives me a job. I'll no longer use the money for personal pleasure, gadgets/possessions, leisure, recreation, hobby, etc... Only those DESPERATELY NEEDED for the work of God - a small rusty old car - the bare basic for personal/supplies transport, computer, few pairs of clothing, rent a small room. the rest goes to God's work.

The few more souls that could be found is worth infinitely more than that time and money I spent for temporal things.

I'd rather live a hell, in poverty and get few souls than get things for my self believing it's God's Will and miss a few souls.

 

[Forge3]

The reflections and sharings so far in here call me to reflection now. I may respond later.


Blessings,

Mark