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75% of Catholics think abortion is okay?

sylverpiano

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So, we have two conflicting stories here:


In the OP, AMDG says:
I was turning off the TV last night when I happened to catch Juan Williams tell folks that Gallup Poll says that 75% of Catholics think that abortion is okay and that they don't have to believe in that old fashioned Vatican. Times change. It's like not eating fish on Friday. Once it was wrong. But now it's okay. What?
STP says:
That was on "The O'Reilly Factor" last night. That's not what Juan Williams said. He said that the Gallup Poll says that 40% of Catholics believe that abortion is morally acceptable. Bill O'Reilly said that he didn't believe the poll that Williams was citing because O'Reilly had the poll numbers from a Knights of Columbus poll that said 75% of Catholics think abortion is immoral. Neither man said the dates of the polls they were quoting or how the specific questions were worded in these 2 polls.
One wonders what the truth is here.

So far, the only hit from a google search engine using the charge in the OP as the search term is this thread. Nothing from either Juan Williams or Bill O'Rielly confirms either of the two posts here.

Anyone have a cite to back up one or the other?
 
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Chany

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Rebekka said:
Ah, if it doesn't matter what I think then I won't bother responding. You needn't have asked me, then. I didn't know you were only asking rhetoric questions. Silly me.

Are you Catholic? I'm sorry, I can't see your faith icon.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Nevertheless; someone said a poll somewhere - says 75% of Catholics do believe abortion is ok.

Dont know who responded to the poll - it is obvious - they are probably clueless how this all works.
 
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judechild

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I find it ridiculous that one would be in hell for eating meat on a Friday and another person wouldn't, just because they were born 50 years apart. It's either a sin or it isn't.

Well, maybe if we nuance it a bit:

Most of the Church's prohibitions come from an understanding of the Natural Law. The Natural Law is a kind of standard that says there are some actions that are simply incompatible with moral nature - or, there are principles that are built into creation and the human person that would be an offence against nature to break; hence, it is wrong to attack the weaker because it is a violation of a fundamental moral principle that is built into the nature of humanity. Some of the Church's prohibitions in this regard are: murder, polygamy, usury, exacting revenge, calumny.

Other of the Church's prohibitions are contingent on knowledge. It is not known at this time when "ensoulment" occures. Ensoulment is the time at which the soul is united to the body, and hence a human person exists. Because this is unknown, but we have reason to believe that it occurs very early on (certainly before birth, which, other than a change in environment, is really a rather arbitrary distinction as regards personhood), the Church condemns all abortion at all stages of development. But, if somehow it was able to be demonstrated that ensoulment happens at a time later than conception, the Church would revise her prohibition accordingly.

Finally, some of the Church's prohibitions (and requirements) are based on commands that are directed toward some good for the people under her charge. It is not an offense against nature to eat meat at any time (at least, unless it's part of some elaborate and unlikely suicide attempt). But still, the Church requires abstinence from meat on Fridays as a way of entering into the mystery of Christ's suffering. It is still required to abstain, unless one does some other sacrifice or remembrance on Friday (such as a good work, or some kind of mortification). The sin here is in disobeying the Church's command which is binding on all the people under her charge. After all, we all understand authority, and if a teacher orders a student to do something, and the student refuses to do it, we say that the student is in the wrong. So, the question is of course whether the Church has authority over her members; the Catholic philosophy is that she does.

Itaque, yes, somethings are either a sin or they are not (violations of natural law). Other things are sins secondarily (the sin is in disobedience to legitimate authority).
 
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AMDG

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Oh well....someone somewhere said it. That's different. That MUST be true.

Well if it is true that someone said it, and yet we know, as Catholics, that Catholics don't believe that abortion is okay, then have to wonder why someone said that we do think it's okay. Why puposely "muddy the waters" (meaning--to cause confusion)?

Sylverpiano says that it's due to "spin", is she right? And if she is, what's the point?
 
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sylverpiano

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Well if it is true that someone said it, and yet we know, as Catholics, that Catholics don't believe that abortion is okay, then have to wonder why someone said that we do think it's okay. Why puposely "muddy the waters" (meaning--to cause confusion)?

Sylverpiano says that it's due to "spin", is she right? And if she is, what's the point?


Hey there, AMDG!

Right here, in this thread, we have to conflicting stories of what was said by Mr Williams last night. Both can not be the truth. How are we to decide which is, in fact the truth? What we have, at this point, is "spin." Obviously, Mr Williams said something about Catholics and their opinions on abortion, but who are we to believe?

I consider quite a lot of the current political dialog to be "spin" from one side or the other until I see proof that the statement is true. Call me cynical, but from experience i see that lies are the stock in trade of politicians and pundits.

I am always searching for the original source material. We need to see this stuff for ourselves and judge the truth of it rather than to believe what some talking head tells us.

I don't want opinion from the left or the right. I want documentary facts.
 
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stp

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So, we have two conflicting stories here:


In the OP, AMDG says:
STP says:
One wonders what the truth is here.

So far, the only hit from a google search engine using the charge in the OP as the search term is this thread. Nothing from either Juan Williams or Bill O'Rielly confirms either of the two posts here.

Anyone have a cite to back up one or the other?


Regarding having 2 conflicting stories on the matter, the recording of "The Factor" is still sitting on my DVR and I rewatched the segment to double check just who it was that used the 75% number with regards to abortion....and it was O'Reilly, not Williams.

This is what I could find (via google) regarding where Williams got his cite for the 40%. Perhaps he followed the link to the Gallup Poll as footnoted with the [34] in the below Wiki excerpt. It's from Wiki's "Catholic Church and Abortion in the United States" article. Sorry but you'll have to look it up yourself as this site won't let me post any links because I'm a newbie.

From Wiki under the heading of "Moral acceptability"

"Analysis of the 2006-2008 Gallup Values and Beliefs surveys indicates that 40% of Catholics consider abortion "morally acceptable", a result that is roughly equivalent to the 41% of non-Catholics holding the same view.[34] 64% of U.S. Catholics say they disapprove of the statement that "abortion is morally wrong in every case".[35] A 2008 survey found that 65% of American Catholics identified themselves as "pro-choice" but also found that 76% of these "pro-choice" Catholics believed that abortion should be significantly restricted.[36] Some 58% of American Catholic women feel that they do not have to follow the abortion teaching of their bishop.[37]"

I've been unable to find a poll that cites the exact number that O'Reilly used (75%). I can't speak for this particular instance but O'Reilly/FOX News have been known to combine the percentages of similiar categories within a poll to come up with total % that isn't specifically mentioned in said poll (which can make the actual poll difficult to find). Bill O'Reilly's personal website cites his 75% number (and, interestingly, makes no mention of the 40% cited on the show by Williams) but O'Reilly did not post a link to the KofC poll for his readers. Maybe O'Reilly will give his viewers more specific information about his KofC source on tonight's show?

Since I can't post the link, to see O'Reilly's mention of his 75% number, go to billoreilly dot com and look under the show info for Monday, Sept 10th and click on "Assessing the conventions".
 
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rainbojo

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I copied this from the Factor web site.

"The Factor invited reaction from FNC's analysts Juan Williams and Mary Katharine Ham. "I was in Charlotte and I didn't see extremists as you described them," Williams said. "Caroline Kennedy didn't insult the church, she just said what I think a majority of Catholics believe. 82% of Catholics believe that a woman can practice contraception." But Ham contended that many Democratic speakers, including Sandra Fluke, qualify as extremists. "She was up on stage saying everyone should pay for everyone else's birth control. The allegation was that people like me allegedly want to take them back to some kind of 'dark age for women.' I think it's ridiculous." The Factor reminded Williams that abortion and contraception are vastly different issues: "75% of practicing American Catholics believe abortion is morally wrong and the Catholic Church condemns abortion. You can not be a practicing Catholic and promote abortion, so Caroline Kennedy is in deep trouble with the Church."
 
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sylverpiano

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[which]The Factor reminded Williams that abortion and contraception are vastly different issues: "75% of practicing American Catholics believe abortion is morally wrong and the Catholic Church condemns abortion. You can not be a practicing Catholic and promote abortion, so Caroline Kennedy is in deep trouble with the Church."[/quote]

Which seems to be the exact opposite of the allegation in the OP.......
 
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AMDG

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Which seems to be the exact opposite of the allegation in the OP.......

Allegation? I said that I was turning off the television when I heard Juan Williams say that the Gallop poll says 75% of Catholics think abortion is okay. (I never said that I was watching the show!) And when I posted that, I said "what?" Besides being totally surprised at this news, I wondered how non-Catholics could get it so wrong!

You then said it was "spin". Okay. Still "why?" was my question. Now, I've heard posts and PMs talking about "lapsed" Catholics and cultural Catholics and that I can understand, but why would someone want to misrepresent and confuse? (Gee, I wonder what else non-Catholics believe about us Catholics. And if questionable information is "out there" about us then how can we expect to be understood or even not be thought of as "something other"?)
 
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AMDG

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Like I said, I was sure surprised. Like *this* is what non-Catholics believe about us? No wonder we have the HHS Mandate. Non-Catholics don't think it's any concern to us. They think we're just being stubborn. They seem to think that we shouldn't have any problem with simply ignoring the Pope (he's just an old man who is "out of touch" anyway). They probably can't understand why they've been hit with the freedom of religion lawsuits we filed.
 
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Rebekka

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Bekks - Elvisman said it's not about eating meat - it's about disobedience.
I know that - I was the first to bring it up anyway. I just happen to disagree with it. (Y'all should read Multatuli's masterpiece "Max Havelaar", then you'd see why I brought up Barbertje because the church is behaving exactly like the judge in the Barbertje case.) "Do as we say, not because of any particular reason but only because we say so." Sorry, doesn't work for me.

And yes, I have a problem with authority.
Which is why I no longer sport the catholic icon.
 
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I was turning off the TV last night when I happened to catch Juan Williams tell folks that Gallup Poll says that 75% of Catholics think that abortion is okay and that they don't have to believe in that old fashioned Vatican. Times change. It's like not eating fish on Friday. Once it was wrong. But now it's okay. What?

Since when do Catholics think abortion is okay? You can't be Catholic and believe abortion is not immoral. It's a tenet of the faith. Procuring (and supporting) abortion carries an automatic excommunication. And why be Catholic in the first place if one doesn't intend to follow the dictates of the Bishop of Rome?

Is this what non-Catholics really believe about us? No wonder Obama is confused.

Beware statistics; there is no way they could have actually asked 1 Billion people, so they probably asked 256 self-identified catholics in croydon or something similar.
 
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Elvisman

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I know that - I was the first to bring it up anyway. I just happen to disagree with it. (Y'all should read Multatuli's masterpiece "Max Havelaar", then you'd see why I brought up Barbertje because the church is behaving exactly like the judge in the Barbertje case.) "Do as we say, not because of any particular reason but only because we say so." Sorry, doesn't work for me.

And yes, I have a problem with authority.
Which is why I no longer sport the catholic icon.
I applaud you for no longer considering yourself Catholic.
At least you're honest about it.
 
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Rebekka

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Are you Catholic? I'm sorry, I can't see your faith icon.
Depends on how you define catholic. I was raised catholic and I've never been a member of any other religious community but I don't consider myself catholic anymore. I think I'm wearing the vaguest possible icon that still doesn't identify me as atheist, agnostic or new age-spiritual - the little candle thingy - if anyone has a better (= more vague) suggestion then I'm all ears. Even the generic christian cross that I've had for the past couple of years (2? I'm not good with dates) doesn't fit me anymore as I associate it with people who are more orthodox than I.
 
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Kotton

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because the church is behaving exactly like the judge in the Barbertje case.) "Do as we say, not because of any particular reason but only because we say so."
And THAT is exactly the opposite of what the Church says. The Church always has a purpose and a reason for doctrine, it is for the betterment of society and her people.

Sorry, doesn't work for me.

And yes, I have a problem with authority.
Which is why I no longer sport the catholic icon.
Which explains why your posts are not in line with this forum. I believe you are not as informed on Catholic doctrine as you think, so stay with this site and learn.
 
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