• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A struggling atheist

Status
Not open for further replies.

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Post-script: I provided an example in my previous response as to how correct reasoning is performed, and with a level of rigour that a religious argument is unable to sustain. You write then that all logical arguments 'tossed your way' by atheists serve to strengthen your belief, but then go on to state that you have little interest in engaging in modern philosophy (reasonable dialogue incarnate). How then could your position possibly be shaken??? Does your own position's apparent unassailability cause you to raise your own eyebrow at all??
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Maybe yours is. But how do you know that's true for other people?

Essentially, I think, because I don't take richness of life to inherently imply an absence of pain. Of course religious belief won't ease physical pain, but it will certainly ease existential pain, or existential angst. I must stress that 'ignorance is bliss' does not equate to 'a life well lived'. Perhaps my own definition of virtue has corrupted my line of reasoning, but I'm sure we would all agree that the seeking out of, and the practicing of, truth is virtuous. To take a leap of faith, to suspend critical judgement, and to engage in wishful thinking (refer to my previous responses and my blog posts for my explanation of why religion amounts to wishful thinking) is a knowing, perhaps fearful, rejection of the pursuit and practice of truth. I think that this constitutes a non-rich life, Sartre's 'bad faith' (the word 'faith' seems ironic here).

As a side note, I think the propagation of said ignorance or, worse and more endemic, the endorsement of the false virtue of abandoning one's seeking of truth (however unpleasant the product of which may seem) is not only a wasted life, but an immoral life.
 
Upvote 0

Nooj

Senior Veteran
Jan 9, 2005
3,229
156
Sydney
✟26,715.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
AU-Greens
Essentially, I think, because I don't take richness of life to inherently imply an absence of pain. Of course religious belief won't ease physical pain, but it will certainly ease existential pain, or existential angst.

I don't think that's true. A religious life, which is a combination and a result of both belief and action, is nothing less than living in constant awareness of one's existence, possibilities, responsibilities.

Religious life is formed out of awareness. Vigilance. Sobriety. Not the austere kind that a cynical veteran of the world possesses, but the shaking away of the dust from one's eyes, so that she can see the world clearly and hopefully. The believer can hope again, with passion. Passion is the centre of a religious life after all.

It is the opposite of the soothing, yet numbing ignorance that arises when a person denies their divine possibility: "I cannot." That's sin and it is characteristic of someone who is in untruth, to borrow the terminology from Kierkegaard. Religious existence is truth.

'Ignorance is bliss' is a phrase that is foreign to Kierkegaard, as well as the idea that religion is somehow opposed to truth or the pursuit of truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Nooj

Senior Veteran
Jan 9, 2005
3,229
156
Sydney
✟26,715.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
AU-Greens
Perhaps my own definition of virtue has corrupted my line of reasoning, but I'm sure we would all agree that the seeking out of, and the practicing of, truth is virtuous.
No, I would not.

Subjectivity is truth. The practicing of truth can only ever be valid within the context of the practicer. It is meaningless to talk of the practicing of truth without reference to the one who practices her truth.

The idea that people can set out on a path of seeking out truth is fantasy. We have an idea of what the 'truth' is before we take the first step, and thus we're not really seeking anything. We're just trying to build on our own beliefs, preconceptions, opinions.
 
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Just to confirm the internal coherency of your statement, are you stating that 'ignorance' is 'caused' by the denial itself, not that the denial is an ignorant 'action' in and of itself, in light of the misconception that one is not divine? Does your idea of denial imply that said divinity is a justified true belief (i.e. is 'known') and that this knowledge is rejected in spite of an acknowledged justification? If you could just clarify that I'll try and address that directly; at this stage it seems that I'd potentially either, respectively, a) take issue with your idea of causation, b) take issue with your assertion that we possess 'divine responsibility' (I am an atheist after all), or c) take issue with your characterisation of my own attempts to know the truth.

I think once this is clarified, my natural response to your final paragraph will be fairly self-evident (if indeed it is based upon your assertion of the existence of a deity, then we are back to the failure of theist arguments, and I would be happy to restate my refutations of said arguments).

Regarding your second paragraph (sorry for taking this slightly out of order), I'd like to go on the record as saying (subjectively, but I doubt many would disagree with me) that the idea of meaninglessness, the idea of the inevitable annihilation of both oneself, one's loved ones and one's entire species, and the idea that there is no objective morality (and the realisation of the enormous secular effort which will be required in order to establish an ethical and peaceful society in light of this) is anything but soothing. This is true if only for the amount of required scholarly endeavour that it implies.
 
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
No, I would not.

Subjectivity is truth. The practicing of truth can only ever be valid within the context of the practicer. It is meaningless to talk of the practicing of truth without reference to the one who practices her truth.

The idea that people can set out on a path of seeking out truth is fantasy. We have an idea of what the 'truth' is before we take the first step, and thus we're not really seeking anything. We're just trying to build on our own beliefs, preconceptions, opinions.

As an academic, I disagree flatly with this, although it does seem to be an ongoing theme in responses on this blog (i.e. the propagation of the idea that subjective/pluralistic models of truth are taken seriously outside of the religious community). I am certainly not trying to build upon my own beliefs/preconceptions in research (either professionally or in my own time, indeed reason requires us to be objective in 'good faith').
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Another atheist blogger who criticises the beliefs of others while offering no beliefs of his own ...
Seriously, is there going to be anything more substantial to your blog other that "Religion is for pussies"?

Stay tuned!! Thanks for having a look, hopefully I can offer something up (although a justified absence of belief 'x' is certainly not predicated upon an analogous all-encompassing belief 'y', at least not in the sense that I'm assuming you are using the word 'belief' - as stated sporadically, I do consider myself an absurdist).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Nooj

Senior Veteran
Jan 9, 2005
3,229
156
Sydney
✟26,715.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
AU-Greens
Regarding your second paragraph (sorry for taking this slightly out of order), I'd like to go on the record as saying (subjectively, but I doubt many would disagree with me) that the idea of meaninglessness, the idea of the inevitable annihilation of both oneself, one's loved ones and one's entire species, and the idea that there is no objective morality (and the realisation of the enormous secular effort which will be required in order to establish an ethical and peaceful society in light of this) is anything but soothing. This is true if only for the amount of required scholarly endeavour that it implies.
I did not say nihilism is soothing - although it is true that it can be soothing. I personally find my impending death a source of great comfort, in contrast to the agony that the absurdists and existentialists seem to feel over it.

What I actually said was that it is soothing to deny the very possibility of possibilities. It's comforting to say that there is nothing you can do and that you are forced to be this person or do that thing. Mauvaise foi describes this 'necessity'. It is a wilful ignorance of one's freedom.

And in this respect, both atheistic and religious existentialism affirm with a great shout of joy that human freedom exists.

Just to confirm the internal coherency of your statement, are you stating that 'ignorance' is 'caused' by the denial itself, not that the denial is an ignorant 'action' in and of itself, in light of the misconception that one is not divine?
I am acting in mauvaise foi if I deny my divine possibility and the state that arises from that denial is mauvaise foi. Mauvaise foi is nothing other than ignorance.

Does your idea of denial imply that said divinity is a justified true belief (i.e. is 'known') and that this knowledge is rejected in spite of an acknowledged justification?
Divine possibility is a term that religious existentialists might use. I use the term partly because I think only the word 'divine' can really capture the sense of wonder and amazement that one's freedom should merit, but also because I think there is something divine about the concept.

Atheist existentialists might use other terms to describe the same existential belief. You don't have to believe in God to wholeheartedly deny that your life is a contingent one. But I should pull up here and say that I also believe in divine necessity as well. I find the two things, divine necessity and divine freedom, to be one and the same.

As an academic, I disagree flatly with this, although it does seem to be an ongoing theme in responses on this blog (i.e. the propagation of the idea that subjective/pluralistic models of truth are taken seriously outside of the religious community).
A subjective perspective of truth is not restricted to the religious. I first encountered it in Nietzsche.

I am certainly not trying to build upon my own beliefs/preconceptions in research (either professionally or in my own time, indeed reason requires us to be objective in 'good faith').
You may not even be aware of it. Everyone has an agenda, everyone is coming at it from their own side. A suspicious man once said, "there is only a perspectival seeing, only a perspectival knowing."

We must be always suspicious of why we think the things we do. What motives do we have for believing in this or that?

Re. my 09:29 PM post - references to paragraphs are slightly redundant seeing as Nooj reformatted his original post. The essence of his comments remain unchanged though, so my response still stands.
I have a habit of editing my posts after they are posted because I think of better ways to reframe my opinions. I apologise, I recognise this is annoying.
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I think this is progress of a kind! I certainly won't argue over the soothing nature (or otherwise) of meaninglessness - I agree entirely that everybody's reaction will be unique. I also won't argue against the existence of freedom; I think our best current approximation of the age-old 'free-will versus determinism' debate is that the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive (i.e. our lives are determined by all of the forces, including evolution, which have lead up to and guide our current state, but we are free at least to an extent which enables moral responsibility, ironically as a result of evolution itself). I too affirm with great joy that human freedom exists.

In fact, the only section of your most recent reply that I take issue with is: "...but also because I think there is something divine about the concept." The first part of that paragraph and sentence, omitted from my quotation, I agree with fully, a sense of the transcendent. From there on in we see a complete leap of faith, assuming that you mean 'divinity' in a religious sense of the word, not in a step back from religiosity and into abstraction of spirituality (not that I have a problem with this inherently, but it certainly is not theism!).

In summary, please correct me if I am wrong, surprise surprise our disagreement is simply over the existence of god! My atheism I stand by strongly, but this is a separate argument; our existentialism divorced of religiosity seems pleasantly parallel (aside from the obvious implications of said freedom - mine to choose ethically, mine to choose meaning, not mine to choose reality, and yours to choose...what exactly?).

PS: I'm keen to get back to atheism itself, which as I have stated lies at the core of our disputation. Regardless of the societal implications (in my blog I have tried my hardest to avoid arguments against religion on the basis of the 'is religion a force for good in the world' direction), this does not lend weight to arguments for or against god's existence.
 
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I also re-read/obsess over previous posts - completely understood.

I think perhaps to compare proto-existentialism (Nietzsche), existentialism and other forms of what has politically incorrectly been dubbed 'continental philosophy', with contemporary analytic philosophy is confused. Subjective truth, as opposed to a correspondence theory of truth (upon which our entire idea of knowledge from Plato onwards is predicated) is absolutely not a point of contention in the metaphysics classroom. Subjective truth did not put man on the moon, a criminal behind bars or the historian's pen to paper.

Ironically, subjective truth manifests itself only by human design in the instances where no objective truth exists - the most poignant example of this is ethics (the irony from a religious stand-point should be quite apparent here). The subjectivity of truth, i.e. correspondence to an actual physical state of affairs, or at least a state of affairs determined by logical inference (or a priori-based deduction), is a meaningless idea. Should the implications, and examples, be provided free of rhetoric and using any sort of formal reasoning then perhaps I'll give the idea further consideration.

Regarding your comments on my awareness of bias and motivation; I devote an entire blog entry to this!! I highlight therein the vast bias inherent in the religious position. That aside, not wanting to repeat myself, regarding my own bias; I make every effort not to make any comments which may not substantiated reasonably. Logic is the great leveler and can only be applied properly when bias is absent (any biographical details you may have picked up about me in past posts or in my blog should be testament to my commitment to this level of rigour). Now logic itself you may have an issue with (a ridiculous proposition, but one I have encountered with incredulity nonetheless); without wanting to assume that the bias with which I am charged refers to my 'faith' in logic (although I can't see where such a bias is manifest elsewhere), I ask rhetorically what would be the implication in your own life of an abandonment of reason? Why do the faithful abandon reason only in a direction which supports their own unfalsifiable 'objective' truth claims? And, the million dollar question, why do those who parade existentialism as having any sort of analytic value invoke pseudo-formal logical arguments to show that logic (intellectualism itself) requires justification?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
By the way, 'the seeking out and practice of truth' to which our discussion of truth referred was prescriptive, regarding virtue in all fields of objective truth, as well as descriptive (as per the topic of this entire discussion) pertaining to 'truth' of god's inexistence.

The debate for god's existence (immune from ridicule only when taken in a deist sense, and even then invalidated by the implications on the laws of causation when 'time' does not exist, invalidated by the semantic wilderness upon which the 'religious' inevitably fall re 'god's' nature, and contextually invalidated by it's greatest proponents having been not subject to aforementioned stumbling blocks) is a metaphysical question. The atheist's position (regarding a personal creator god) is an epistemological position (i.e. that there is no justification for believing in the existence of a god) and is ironically independent of the truth of the claim (cue the argument for agnosticism, and then cue my refutation of it).

The point here is that our current discussion has veered wildly off track! In light of my reduction of our current point of contention, I think we can agree that this digression has gone full circle and get back to the real point at hand; god's existence (or lack thereof)! Also, how to live now that we have established this.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Another atheist blogger who criticises the beliefs of others while offering no beliefs of his own ...
Atheism is an instance of non-belief. Everyone believes some things, it is true. But if the subject is atheism, then any other beliefs than belief in God is off-topic.
Seriously, is there going to be anything more substantial to your blog other that "Religion is for pussies"?
How about, "Religion is for people who are too lazy to think"? Or, "Religion is for people who want to believe themselves somehow better than non-believers"?

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
37
✟27,024.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Gracchus said:
Notedstrangeperson said:
Seriously, is there going to be anything more substantial to your blog other that "Religion is for pussies"?
How about, "Religion is for people who are too lazy to think"? Or, "Religion is for people who want to believe themselves somehow better than non-believers"?
There are at least two things wrong with your reply. First is that labelling literally billions of people as arrogant and intellectually lazy is itself arrogent and intellectually lazy. The second is that you seem to have forgotten that Buddhism is a religion. So unless you're being very self-deprecating (or simply have no concept of irony) you're hardly in a position to criticise reigious people.

And people wonder why atheists are seen as egotistical.
 
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
There are at least two things wrong with your reply. First is that labelling literally billions of people as arrogant and intellectually lazy is itself arrogent and intellectually lazy. The second is that you seem to have forgotten that Buddhism is a religion. So unless you're being very self-deprecating (or simply have no concept of irony) you're hardly in a position to criticise reigious people.

And people wonder why atheists are seen as egotistical.


I think that such a summation would have been lazy itself say in the bronze-age, where man knew no better than worship; I don't think any of us atheists would deny that religiosity is a manifestation of some sort of 'misfiring' evolved psychological requirement. However, ignorance in an age of information is indeed a matter of choice (even if an existential explanation of the matter as a product of fear is both more poetic and more pragmatic in one's own journey away from superstition).

In defense of Gracchus' Buddhism - it could be worth noting that the religiosity of his position would depend entirely on the brand of buddhism which he practices. Theravada Buddhism, most closely linked to Siddhartha Gautama's historical teachings is essentially a moral philosophy (with broad-stroke metaphysical and epistemological teachings reinforced entirely by contemporary naturalistic academia). As buddhist teachings spread into Eastern Asia, and what we call 'zen' teachings developed originally in China, and into the Himalayan region (commonly known today as Vajrayana, and taken together with the East Asian tradition, referred to collectively as Mahayana) the teachings amalgamated localised (and more traditionally 'religious') folk beliefs. Incidentally, these should be considered seperate from the core Buddhist teachings, which continue to emphasise a lack of human 'soul', the transience of all things in nature, karma in a psychological context and divorced of superstitious connotations, the importance of 'reason' above all other human faculties, and a rejection of authority in either scripture or personality (other key concepts in all religions, supernatural and otherwise). Regarding meditative practice, these practices may (and should) be considered completely seperate from any sort of supernatural ideas (they are, with the exception of Vajrayana tantric practices, the complete opposite). Likewise, the Buddha's ethical teachings were entirely secular and are void of appeal to any sort of authority or moral objectivity (taking India's existing metaphysical and physical understanding as a starting point, the historical Buddha's additions to/rejections of the commonly accepted models of the day were entirely secular; contrast this to the supernatural fulfillment of existing illiterate prophesy that was Hebrew understanding of the world order in the time of Jesus).

Just a funny side note on arrogance; great Oxford chemist Pete Atkins was quoted in regard to his atheism as saying "It's not arrogant if it is true"! Personally, I feel that the kind of public delivery of ideas which may be interpreted/appear as arrogance when directed at topics usually treated with reverence/sanctity, pales in comparison to the claim that humankind in all of its cosmic irrelevance may have even the slightest claim to know the highest workings of the universe.

PS: I highly recommend Vietnamese zen Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh's account of the Buddha's life, 'Old Path White Clouds' as a beautiful work of literature and Eastern existential thought. Nhat Hanh was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967 by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
37
✟27,024.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sorry to nitpick but ...

JazzTrance said:
I think that such a summation would have been lazy itself say in the bronze-age, where man knew no better than worship
The Bible isn't a book, it's a series of books. It's true that some of the earliest books date towards the end of the Bronze age (the Book of Job dates to about 1,500 BC) but the youngest book, Revelations, was written around 95 AD. This was during the age of the Roman empire.

People seem to have this conflicting view on the Bible - half the time they argue it's a ridiculously outdated book which expects modern people to live the same way people in the bronze age did, and half the time they claim it's been updated and edited so often that it's no longer reliable.
 
Upvote 0

JazzTrance

Newbie
Aug 24, 2012
30
1
✟22,655.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
People seem to have this conflicting view on the Bible - half the time they argue it's a ridiculously outdated book which expects modern people to live the same way people in the bronze age did, and half the time they claim it's been updated and edited so often that it's no longer reliable.

Neither, of course, being appropriate for contemporary understanding in any capacity!

And the Roman-era author's of which were not great Roman thinkers (a la the great Stoics like Marcus Aurelius), nor were they heavily culturally influenced by the West (except where writings were tailored/facts edited to deliberately exploit situational cultural bias during the diaspora).
 
Upvote 0

Nooj

Senior Veteran
Jan 9, 2005
3,229
156
Sydney
✟26,715.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
AU-Greens
Theravada Buddhism, most closely linked to Siddhartha Gautama's historical teachings is essentially a moral philosophy (with broad-stroke metaphysical and epistemological teachings reinforced entirely by contemporary naturalistic academia). As buddhist teachings spread into Eastern Asia, and what we call 'zen' teachings developed originally in China, and into the Himalayan region (commonly known today as Vajrayana, and taken together with the East Asian tradition, referred to collectively as Mahayana) the teachings amalgamated localised (and more traditionally 'religious') folk beliefs. Incidentally, these should be considered seperate from the core Buddhist teachings, which continue to emphasise a lack of human 'soul', the transience of all things in nature, karma in a psychological context and divorced of superstitious connotations, the importance of 'reason' above all other human faculties, and a rejection of authority in either scripture or personality (other key concepts in all religions, supernatural and otherwise).

One of the things that you have to do to become a Buddhist is to take refuge in the Three Jewels: the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha.

The Buddha is absolutely authoritative in Buddhism. He is someone you trust, someone you believe in, someone you have faith in. Why? Because he had direct experience. He tasted nibbana. He was once a man, but now is something more than gods and men. He is the Awakened One. Like other religions, the Buddha desired people to test their beliefs so far as possible.

Through testing, one's faith in the Buddha, his Dharma and the Sangha grows stronger and stronger. There are other beliefs that are untestable (as of yet), such as the perfect reclamation of one's part rebirths. Here, you must simply trust the Buddha to know, until the moment when one can progress to the point where one can also directly apprehend the memories of one's past lives. How can you believe that nirvana is attainable, unless you trust the Buddha's words? For a good read of how faith is important to Buddhism, read: saddhā and also here.

Stripping Buddhism of the supernatural is as silly as stripping Jesus from Christianity. Let me just take one example.

In the Noble Eightfold Path, there is the precept Right View. You must have Right View and not wrong view. One of the Wrong Views was ucchedavāda, which can be pretty much described as materialism. In the Buddha's time, there were eternalists, people who believed in the existence of a soul. And there were the annihilationists, who believed in the doctrine of annihilationism. They believed that when they died, they would be annihilated, no afterlife and no nothing.

The Buddha firmly rejects both extremes and teaches the Middle Way.

If there is no rebirth, there's no nirvana. And the Buddhist path becomes...well, pointless. The cessation of suffering is indefatigably linked with rebirth by the Buddha. You can scarcely read five pages of the Pali Canon without hearing about it. Here's just one, the Itivuttaka 49:

This was said by the Lord...
"Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and
human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.
"And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.
"How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: 'In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!' Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.
"How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practices the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see."
Having seen what has come to be As having come to be, Passing beyond what has come to be, They are released in accordance with truth By exhausting the craving for being. When a bhikkhu has fully understood That which has come to be as such, Free from craving to be this or that, By the extinction of what has come to be He comes no more to renewal of being.
This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.
Devas are gods. The Buddha talks to the gods in the scriptures. These are from the Pali Canon mind you.

One of my favourite teachings of the Buddha is the Assu Sutta:

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."
"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
We must leave this interminable wandering through existence, being reborn over and over and over and over and over and over.

All the above is standard Theravada practice and belief. I personally find myself more attracted to Mahayana.

Regarding meditative practice, these practices may (and should) be considered completely seperate from any sort of supernatural ideas (they are, with the exception of Vajrayana tantric practices, the complete opposite). Likewise, the Buddha's ethical teachings were entirely secular and are void of appeal to any sort of authority or moral objectivity (taking India's existing metaphysical and physical understanding as a starting point, the historical Buddha's additions to/rejections of the commonly accepted models of the day were entirely secular; contrast this to the supernatural fulfillment of existing illiterate prophesy that was Hebrew understanding of the world order in the time of Jesus).

Buddhism is one of my favourite religions. I don't recognise your depiction of Buddhism here. There are a great many Buddhists on this board that could correct your understanding of the history of Buddhism.

I find it strange how your understanding of Buddhism so closely matches your own beliefs about how the world is. Again, I have to ask: what are your motives, your intentions, your reasons behind the views that you hold?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.