ERV homology argument and comparative genomics

[Elendur]

I really hope creationists who use that specific argument (ERV's -> Retroviruses) will read what you wrote. Thanks again

 

[Split Rock]

Don't know how much you'll see me. I started looking over a few weeks ago and could hardly believe how the creationist contributions appear to have got even more hatstand than they used to be. Or maybe staying away from it for a while I'd forgotten just how completely potty it could get.

My main thrust these days is pointing out the dishonesty of the creationist machine - not the deluded followers we mostly see on here - but the people generating the crap they regurgitate, because I find it very hard to believe they don't know they're telling a bunch of porkies - professional LCWs (Lying Creationist Weasels) indeed. You'll never win by arguing the science because honest scientists have to stick to actual reality, whereas the LCWs can just pull whatever rubbish out of the smelly end of their alimentary canals suits their purpose. *Cough* human sunflower Cytochrome C *Cough* Duane Gish *Cough*

It's fun to be back for a while though. Don't know how long it'll last; sooner or later I point out to a LCW that he's a LCW and get banned for flaming

OH, there's no doubt that most professional creationists are liars. I have often pointed out that in order to quote mine, you have to know understand exactly what you are doing.

 

[Guy1]

OH, there's no doubt that most professional creationists are liars. I have often pointed ouit that in order to quote mine, you have to know understand exactly what you are doing.

Most of them? I think you mean all of them. You don't preach on such a level and somehow avoid hearing even the most basic premises of the opposition. These people are corrected on a daily basis and willingly ignore what's being said.

 

[florida2]

Well, what do you know - Mr Kennedy is nowhere to be seen.

 

[Split Rock]

Most of them? I think you mean all of them. You don't preach on such a level and somehow avoid hearing even the most basic premises of the opposition. These people are corrected on a daily basis and willingly ignore what's being said.

There are a few exceptions to the rule. for example, Dr. Kurt Wise is a very good one. He admits that the evidence infers common descent, but that he must reject this conclusion because his understanding of scripture demands that he reject it. He's kind of a sad case, but I admire his honesty in a profession so lacking honesty. Kurt Wise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

There are a few exceptions to the rule. for example, Dr. Kurt Wise is a very good one. He admits that the evidence implies common descent, but that he must reject this conclusion because his understanding of scripture demands that he reject it. He's kind of a sad case, but I admire his honesty in a profession so lacking honesty. Kurt Wise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FIFY. Sorry, pet peeve.

 

[Split Rock]

FIFY. Sorry, pet peeve.

Are you saying the evidence implies common descent, or are you saying that Kurt Wise says it implies common descent? Infer is the best word to use, in my opinion.


in·fer
   [in-fur] Show IPA verb, in·ferred, in·fer·ring.

verb (used with object)
1.
to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence: They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice. Infer | Define Infer at Dictionary.com

 

[Guy1]

There are a few exceptions to the rule. for example, Dr. Kurt Wise is a very good one. He admits that the evidence infers common descent, but that he must reject this conclusion because his understanding of scripture demands that he reject it. He's kind of a sad case, but I admire his honesty in a profession so lacking honesty. Kurt Wise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I stand corrected then. I scanned over his work, and I at least like him better than the guys in here.

 

[Split Rock]

Well, what do you know - Mr Kennedy is nowhere to be seen.

He'll be back... and he'll be posting as if no one responded to the O.P.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Are you saying the evidence implies common descent, or are you saying that Kurt Wise says it implies common descent? Infer is the best word to use, in my opinion.


in·fer
   [in-fur] Show IPA verb, in·ferred, in·fer·ring.

verb (used with object)
1.
to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence: They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice. Infer | Define Infer at Dictionary.com

Inferring is done by the observer. 'From it getting darker I infer the sun has gone down' - 'the sky getting darker implies that the sun has gone done'. The evidence implies; only a rational observer can infer because inference is a rational process.

Kurt Wise can infer; the evidence can only imply.


Imply vs. infer - Grammarist

 

[sfs]

I stand corrected then. I scanned over his work, and I at least like him better than the guys in here.

Check out Todd Wood as well.

 

[USincognito]

Check out Todd Wood as well.

Wood's work is interesting and he's one of the more confounding YECs around. I'm surprised that he hasn't had a Glenn Mortonesque realization yet and moved to OEC or TE.

Anyone who would try and put him in the same camp with Hovind, Ham, Sarfati, Gish, etc. would be insulting him IMO.

 

[Split Rock]

Inferring is done by the observer. 'From it getting darker I infer the sun has gone down' - 'the sky getting darker implies that the sun has gone done'. The evidence implies; only a rational observer can infer because inference is a rational process.

Kurt Wise can infer; the evidence can only imply.


Imply vs. infer - Grammarist

LOL! You got me. I guess I should say from now on, "We infer common descent from the physical evidence."

 

[Guy1]

Here's his new thread. It is a copy/paste: http://www.christianforums.com/t7682738/

 

[Split Rock]

Here's his new thread. It is a copy/paste: http://www.christianforums.com/t7682738/

One of the things I have noticed about Mark, is that he claims here in this part of the forum that his argument with evolution is based soley on genetics. Then he admits the truth in the Christian Only section that it is because he believes Adam must have been an historical figure. He then tells his fellow creationists that when he brings up genetics here in this section, that we all run away with our tails between our legs. Very disingenuous.

 

[Loudmouth]

Bumping this article since it contains evidence for common ancestry between humans and chimps. Posters in other threads are claiming that this evidence doesn't exist. Well, here it is.

 

[46AND2]

This thread is actually how I found the site. I was doing some research on ERVs and this popped up in the Google search.

 

[46AND2]

Homo
ACGTACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Pan
ACGTPtERVACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Gorilla
ACGTPtERVACGTACGTACGTACGT

That is how the facts line up





You don't seem to appreciate the inverse logic of your argument.

I wanted to repost this with the information that Loudmouth provided. What Mark Kennedy says here would be a problem...if it was what we observe. But it isn't. It looks like this:

Homo
ACGTACGTACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Pan
ACGTPtERVACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Gorilla
ACGTACGTPtERVACGTACGTACGTACGT



Which is indicative of ERV2 being inherited by both chimps and humans from a common ancestor, and PtERV infecting both chimps and gorillas independently after humans had split off.

Interestingly, the reason why chimps and gorillas were infected by PtERV1 and humans were not was because of an isoform of Trim5 protein which gave us resistance to that particular virus.

 

[verysincere]

Wood's work is interesting and he's one of the more confounding YECs around. I'm surprised that he hasn't had a Glenn Mortonesque realization yet and moved to OEC or TE.

Anyone who would try and put him in the same camp with Hovind, Ham, Sarfati, Gish, etc. would be insulting him IMO.

Agreed!

I would love to spend some time chatting with Todd Wood. I have NEVER seen him misrepresent the facts of science or outright lie. (Sadly, lying is common in the YEC movement and that was a major reason for my leaving and learning my way out.)

So I respect Wood a lot. But I've also thought about this: If Wood ever has a Glenn Morton moment, he knows that his career would end immediately. Indeed, that is true for most (perhaps all) of the major YEC leaders. For that matter, we all remember when non-scientist theologian Dr. Bruce Waltke make an evolution-friendly/creationism-"sobering" statement in a video ---and within DAYS he "resigned" his faculty position at his seminary under considerable world-wide attention. Despite "creation science" complaints about academic freedom, failure to adhere to the YEC ideology can get one fired within HOURS of an offending statement! (And all of us who have worked in evangelical Christian academia know this. And even TENURE---where it exists----is MEANINGLESS in such cases. One doesn't even finish the semester!)

I never feared for my job when I was a young science professor at a secular university who was speaking on "creation science" at Bible conferences and even in some on-campus evolution debates. But as a professor at various Christian university and seminary campuses, I knew that the wrong statement could get me fired IMMEDIATELY.

So with that in mind, imagine the internal conflict for someone like Todd Wood if someday the evidence becomes overwhelming and he has a Glenn Morton change of mind!

 

[Loudmouth]

I wanted to repost this with the information that Loudmouth provided. What Mark Kennedy says here would be a problem...if it was what we observe. But it isn't. It looks like this:

Homo
ACGTACGTACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Pan
ACGTPtERVACGTERV2ACGTACGTACGT

Gorilla
ACGTACGTPtERVACGTACGTACGTACGT

Exactly. PtERV insertions are not orthologous amongst chimps and gorillas which shoots a huge hole in Mark's argument. In fact, we can use the theory of evolution to predict that they would not be orthologous, and they aren't.

Which is indicative of ERV2 being inherited by both chimps and humans from a common ancestor, and PtERV infecting both chimps and gorillas independently after humans had split off.

Precisely.

Interestingly, the reason why chimps and gorillas were infected by PtERV1 and humans were not was because of an isoform of Trim5 protein which gave us resistance to that particular virus.

I wasn't aware that they had narrowed down the cause for that yet, so that is good to hear.