Mary and the Scriptures

[Standing Up]

Really easy for you to find a way around the Scripture and how "all power" being requested for the Colossians has to mean something completely different than what the author of this prayer means by "all power" being given to Mary.-snip-

That's the point. You asked for where it said Mary was omnipotent. You answered it. She's been given "all power", they think.

She's also omnipresent, being able to hear millions of prayers simultaneously. Gotta be both, don'cha think?

 

[narnia59]

That's the point. You asked for where it said Mary was omnipotent. You answered it. She's been given "all power", they think.

She's also omnipresent, being able to hear millions of prayers simultaneously. Gotta be both, don'cha think?

She has not been given "all power" as an equal to God, whose omnipotence is the source of all power and is eternal. Do you see it saying that? Otherwise, you have no case to make there.

"Simultaneously", first of all assumes she is experiencing time sequentially as we are. Do you have a Scriptural basis for that assumption?

Also, you need to explain how what is happening on earth is in the presence of the angels and how they are aware of what's going on with everybody here on earth. Per Scripture, they evidently are aware each time a sinner repents, so they too must be able to hear everything we say and do "simultaneously" as you say. So do you profess that angels are omnipresent because they can do this?

 

[narnia59]

CS Lewis writes about “time” in Mere Christianity:

In the last chapter I had to touch on the subject of prayer, and while that is still fresh in your mind and my own, I should like to deal with the difficulty that some people find about the whole idea of prayer. A man put it to me by saying “I can believe God all right, but what I cannot swallow is the idea of Him attending to several hundred million human beings who are all addressing him at the same moment.” And I have found that quite a lot of people feel this.

Now, the first thing to notice is that the whole sting of it comes in the words at the same moment. Most of us can imagine God attending to any number of applicants if only they came one by one and He had an endless time to do it in. So what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God having to fit too many things into one moment of time.

Well that is if course what happens to us. Our life comes to us moment by moment. One moment disappears before the next comes along: and there is room for very little in each. That is what Time is like. And of course you and I tend to take it for granted that this Time series – this arrangement of past, present and future – is not simply the way life comes to us but the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from past to future just as we do. But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all: later the Philosophers took it over: and now some of the scientists are doing the same.

Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty – and every other moment from the beginning of the world is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.
CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, (Time and Beyond Time)

So, is God "in time"? Are those who are with God, "in time", and experience the same constraints we do? Or do they likewise have all eternity to listen to the prayers of one of our 'moments'?

 

[Standing Up]

The following are excerpts from Roman Catholic prayers, according to the website www .catholic.org

1. "Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth," from Affectuate Salutations to Mary.

She has not been given "all power" as an equal to God, whose omnipotence is the source of all power and is eternal. Do you see it saying that? Otherwise, you have no case to make there.

Okay. The prayer has it wrong. No problem. We agree.

So, the new question is, since we agree the description does not identify Mary correctly, what does this mean about to whom the praryer is directed? Not to Mary. So, to nothing?

 

[narnia59]

The following are excerpts from Roman Catholic prayers, according to the website www .catholic.org

1. "Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth," from Affectuate Salutations to Mary.

Okay. The prayer has it wrong. No problem. We agree.

So, the new question is, since we agree the description does not identify Mary correctly, what does this mean about to whom the praryer is directed? Not to Mary. So, to nothing?

Just so we're clear, the only official Catholic websites I'm aware of are the Vatican and the US Conference of Catholic bishops. If you want to find 'issues', I'd say start there.

The only thing that I agree to is that "all power" can be shown to have a context that does not mean omnipotent as we understand God to be, and that is the meaning that would be consistent with Catholic teaching.

Other than that, I'm not getting into 'word games' with you again where you alone can define the definitions and the sandbox if a conversation is to be had. So, I'm done with the "all power" discussion with you. If you'd like to explain how angels can be aware of everytime a sinner repents on earth without being omnipresent, I'd be interested in hearing that.

 

[MamaZ]

I think there a few points that needed to be added to this discussion. First is that the Jeremiah verses are out of context--they concern by my understanding the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, a goddess of fertility, that followers offered cakes shaped like stars to.

Next, Catholism 101 for those who are not aware. We do not treat Mary as God or adore Mary, that is only reserved for God alone. We do however, ask Mary to intercede for us. This does not contradict our belief that there is only one mediator between God and man, our Lord Jesus Christ. Everything goes through Mary to Jesus and anything we receive from Mary comes from Jesus. If I ask you to pray for me will you refuse on the basis that their is only one mediator between God and man--and you are not it? And if your prayers for me are answered, does that mean it came from you--or Jesus? I have problems understanding why someone experiencing everlasting life and in union with the Holy Trinity would be so much different from someone on Earth in their ability and desire to pray for us. James 5:16 tells us that the prayers of righteous person availth much, is there anymore righteous than those united with Jesus in Heaven?

Let us also consider other Bible with reference to Mary: Should we not pray as the Psalms as the KJV puts it "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. O Lord, truly I am thy servant; and the son of thine handmaid; thou hast loosed my bonds."(Ps 116:15-16).

In John 19 we see John is not referred to as John, but the beloved disciple, and Jesus gives his mother to him, and him to His mother. In Rev 12 we need to look also at this woman who gave birth to Christ, and in verse 17 we find that she is the mother of others that the devil wages war against who keep the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. She is also our mother. In Rev 12:1-2 we see that in Heaven she is present with a crown of 12 stars, and clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet. Is that promised to us also, or is this a special honor God bestows on Mary? Would Jesus not honor His mother and father? Should we degrade our spiritual mother and talk evil about her? What does it say for us if Mary who God said through the angel Gabriel is "highly favored" (Lk1:28, KJV),and whom God has done great things for (Lk 1:49) can carry Jesus physically inside of her and physically live with Him all those years and love him only as a mother can love a child, and still be a reched person--what chance do we have? It doesn't make sense to me. Should we really work on trying to rid out what the Bible says through Mary's canticle that "all generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48).

Also, let us not forget the detail that God had in building the Ark of the Convenant, the dwelling place of God among his people. Why would God put so much detail in that Ark, but for Mary not want the same detail for his dwelling place for 9 months? And does Lk 6:43-44 have some special exemption to Mary? If the "tree is know by it's fruit" then shouldn't Mary be know for the tree she was born as, as the mother of Jesus? Should we not love Mary for nothing more than the way she loved Jesus prior to His horrible Passion.

Regardless of your faith, I believe everyone who strives to live a Christian life can see the wisdom in an old saying of the Catholic Church, which is: Love Jesus as Mary loved Jesus, and love Mary as Jesus loved Mary.

Now how can I love a sister in the Lord after she is clothed in her heavenly home? I can't see her or hear her. I cannot converse with her. She needs nothing. What do you believe love means when you say to Love Jesus as Mary loved him?

 

[SolomonVII]

Scripture reference please that indicates the commandments were equally divided between the two tablets and had that kind of correspondence to each other? Or that the way we honor our parents is by honoring ourselves?

The two tablets are scriptural. The rest is not dogma, but as I said, commentary.
The division is not according to Catholic Tradition, of course, but it is according to traditional Jewish division, with the first half of the commandments centred on Creator, and the last half on the mankind.
Since any division that we give to make the list of ten is arbitrary, to make it as Biblical as possible, all we can note with certainty is that the first section of the Biblical passages that make up our Ten centre on God and Creator, the last half centers on us, to not murder, to not cheat on our spouses, to not lie, or covet.
My reading of the Bible is not dogmatic though, rather anti-dogmatic in fact. It is just an interesting idea to note how the first half relates to the second half. I would think that it would be equally interesting to Protestants, Catholics or Jews actually, since this is a teaching that we share, and a tradition that we share too.

Christ indicates that at least one way we honor our parents is providing financial support if needed. How does that fit into this theory?

How does it contradict it?

 

[SolomonVII]

Is Paul praying for the Colossians to become omnipotent?

Colossians 1:11 "May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy".

Paul is praying for the Colossians to be given "all power". And who is the giver? God -- who has "eternal power" (Romans 1:20) which is the theological view of what omnipotence means in relation to God. Is he praying for them to become omnipotent in place of or along with God? Now that would be a silly thought, wouldn't it?

This prayer is not claiming God's omnipotence for Mary. Please note it refers not to power that Mary is the cause or source of, but rather to the power that "has been given" to her. God is the source of the power that Mary has received. Just as Scripture refers to our sharing his divine power (2 Cor 10:4), and Stephen is referred to as "full of power" (Acts 6:8).

So Paul can pray for "all power" to be given to the Colossians, and Scripture can say that we share in God's divine power, and Stephen can be referred to as "full of" power, but if Catholics refer that "all power" has been given to Mary, somehow that places Mary as equal to God's omnipotence.

Do you see how silly these accusations can sound when they are placed in the context of Scripture and legitimate Catholic teaching?

Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!

 

[jataylo]

Standing Up,

Can you provide us with Church teachings that show your interpretations of those words are correct as opposed to the words of narnia59 who provides quite a few examples? Can you show us that you are not just putting your interpretation, which I might add are quite wrong and deemed heretical by the Church, on the words presented?

Also, can you please show us where the Church says Mary will be given all power "as equal to God" (your words, not the words of the Church)?

Now, does Mary share in the divinity of Christ? Sure she does, the same way we all do 2Pet 1:4. We are members of the Body of Christ.

Where in the Bible do we find that those in heaven have no idea what is going on here on Earth, or that they can't hear prayers? Are you saying that the human restrictions here on Earth also apply to those in heaven? In 1Cor 13:12 we are told we will know "fully" in heaven, and that we don't here on Earth. 1Cor15:49 tells us in heaven we will bear the image of Christ, to what degree we don't know, but we will be much more than we are here on Earth.

How do the views you present here correspond with the following scriptures:

1Sam 28:15-19 Samuel is dead but seems to have knowledge of not only present, but future events.

Rev 5:8 the prayers of the holy ones are presented before God.

Lk 15:7,10 Do those in heaven just look at each other and wonder why the angels are rejoicing--and will never know why?

Lk 16:19-31 How does the rich man know his brothers are still alive and haven't repented?

Rev 6:9-10 How do they know there blood hasn't been revenged yet if they have no knowledge of events on Earth?

Rev 8:3-4 angels are bringing prayers of the holy ones to God.

Mt 18:10 The angels are looking over us.

Mt 22:29-30 says those in heaven will be like angels. Is there a place where it says they won't know who has repented or what is happening on Earth, or won't offer up prayers to God?

Heb 12:1-12 says we are surrounded by a cloud of witness, so wouldn't it be reasonable to think they may have some idea on what is happening here on Earth?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

[jataylo]

MamaZ,
I'll try to answer your questions in two parts:

"Now how can I love a sister in the Lord after she is clothed in her heavenly home? I can't see her or hear her. I cannot converse with her. She needs nothing."
The problem I think you may have here is your looking at this from a purely Earthly experience of love--you can't see her with your eyes, you can't hear her with your ears, you can't physcially stand in a room and touch her physical hand and converse with her. But can you do the same with God in a purely phycial sense either? Does He need anything? Does that mean you can't love Him? We all one body as Jn 17:23 tells us and that unity cannot be seperated from death.

By love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, I mean love Jesus with the greatest love we have here on Earth as an example. Mary was the mother of Jesus, Joseph was a step-father, although a wonderful one at that. But Mary loved Jesus as a parent loves a child. What parent would not give their life for their child? How many examples do we have of parents sacraficing all they have for their children? We should allow Jesus to grow in us as He grew in Mary's womb, we should loving give up riches of the world for Jesus as many mothers do for their children today, we should try to spend as much time with Jesus never having enough time to spend with Him as all mothers do today, especially working mothers. All of our work should be for Jesus as the work we do today we do to provide for our children. We should feel Mary's sorrow when we meditate on the Passion and all the pain and suffering Jesus went through, and we should experience Mary's joy when we meditate on the Ressurection. What could be worse than seeing your own son bloody, carring a heavy cross and then watching him die a slow anguish death? We should love Jesus with that most tenderly love of a first time mother holding her child for the first time, filled with awe, and the inner knowledge that my life is changing.

 

[narnia59]

The two tablets are scriptural. The rest is not dogma, but as I said, commentary.
The division is not according to Catholic Tradition, of course, but it is according to traditional Jewish division, with the first half of the commandments centred on Creator, and the last half on the mankind.
Since any division that we give to make the list of ten is arbitrary, to make it as Biblical as possible, all we can note with certainty is that the first section of the Biblical passages that make up our Ten centre on God and Creator, the last half centers on us, to not murder, to not cheat on our spouses, to not lie, or covet.
My reading of the Bible is not dogmatic though, rather anti-dogmatic in fact. It is just an interesting idea to note how the first half relates to the second half. I would think that it would be equally interesting to Protestants, Catholics or Jews actually, since this is a teaching that we share, and a tradition that we share too.


How does it contradict it?

It would only contradict it if your are limiting what the commandment to honor your parents means is to honor yourself and the life you live. I would not disagree that a life well lived brings honor to one's parents. I would only disagree if that was the focus to the exclusion of other aspects of honoring one's parents.

I can agree that in the commandments God begins with that which is focused on God, and then moves to neighbor. As Jesus says, the whole law can be summed up with loving God above all, and loving neighbor as ourselves.

 

[narnia59]

Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!

No. My use of Scripture was to simply show how the term "all power" and a prayer request to receive "all power" does not by necessity imply omnipotence as we know God to be omnipotent.

But this prayer is not theology, nor doctrine. If one wants to learn what the Catholic church teaches about Mary, one turns to the teaching authority. You read the catechism. If you want to learn about Catholic communal worship as prescribed by the church, read the texts of the Mass.

This prayer is not written by the church, for the church. It's written by an individual, and shared with others. It's not a doctrinal treatise -- it's a love letter. Read the title: Affectuate Saluations to Mary. Urban dictionary defines "Affectuate" as to "show someone that truely desires you how much they really mean to you, sprouting from the main root word of affection."

I mentioned this earlier but Mark Shea does a really good analysis of this in his books on Mary. He takes the poem "How Do I Love Thee" and rips it apart from the perspective of a 'theological' analysis. Of course, we all know that it's not a theological statement -- it's a beautiful love poem and a work of literature. The same principle applies here.

And for a moment, back to the "all power" thing. No, Scripture does not say that all power has been given to Mary. It also makes no comment about "prayer warriors" either, but my Evangelical friends are big on the term that there are some, due to their especially close walk with Christ, have an especially effective and powerful life of intercessory prayer. There is a recognition among them that we are not all equal in this regard. There is no different concept at play here, except if I wanted to choose the one person who has had the closest walk ever with Christ, my choice would be Mary.

 

[Standing Up]

jataylo-this might help. I'm fairly certain narnia and I have agreed on the meanings.

Standing Up,

Can you provide us with Church teachings that show your interpretations of those words are correct as opposed to the words of narnia59 who provides quite a few examples? Can you show us that you are not just putting your interpretation, which I might add are quite wrong and deemed heretical by the Church, on the words presented?

Also, can you please show us where the Church says Mary will be given all power "as equal to God" (your words, not the words of the Church)? -snip-

Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!

No. -snip

No, it does not. See? We agree. Nothing about my interpretation.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is. Angels and Christians are the same? Let me know.

 

[MamaZ]

MamaZ,
I'll try to answer your questions in two parts:

"Now how can I love a sister in the Lord after she is clothed in her heavenly home? I can't see her or hear her. I cannot converse with her. She needs nothing."
The problem I think you may have here is your looking at this from a purely Earthly experience of love--you can't see her with your eyes, you can't hear her with your ears, you can't physcially stand in a room and touch her physical hand and converse with her. But can you do the same with God in a purely phycial sense either? Does He need anything? Does that mean you can't love Him? We all one body as Jn 17:23 tells us and that unity cannot be seperated from death.

I can Converse with God my Father for He is omnipresent. I have His written scriptures to feed my Spirit. I have His very Own Spirit inside of me giving me His power to live the life I have been called to Live. Through Christ I am one with them. Mary on the other Hand was a human being born under the Law and born again from the very Son she bore. For she too had to come through Christ to get to the Father. The unity that we share is not conversing with those clothed in their heavenly Home but with The blood of Christ and of being born again.



By love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, I mean love Jesus with the greatest love we have here on Earth as an example. Mary was the mother of Jesus, Joseph was a step-father, although a wonderful one at that. But Mary loved Jesus as a parent loves a child. What parent would not give their life for their child? How many examples do we have of parents sacraficing all they have for their children? We should allow Jesus to grow in us as He grew in Mary's womb, we should loving give up riches of the world for Jesus as many mothers do for their children today, we should try to spend as much time with Jesus never having enough time to spend with Him as all mothers do today, especially working mothers. All of our work should be for Jesus as the work we do today we do to provide for our children. We should feel Mary's sorrow when we meditate on the Passion and all the pain and suffering Jesus went through, and we should experience Mary's joy when we meditate on the Ressurection. What could be worse than seeing your own son bloody, carring a heavy cross and then watching him die a slow anguish death? We should love Jesus with that most tenderly love of a first time mother holding her child for the first time, filled with awe, and the inner knowledge that my life is changing.

We are not Jesus Mother that loved Him with her mothers heart for a Child. I love Christ not with a motherly love but with a love of awe and adoration. For He alone is my Savior and He alone paid the penalty for my Sin. For He alone is worhthy of being exalted above the earth. All others are human beings saved by the very same grace that saved me. So there fore I stand united with them through the Blood of Christ and His wonderful Spirit.

 

[Trogool]

O Mary of Graces - YouTube

 

[MamaZ]

Mary is not the mother of all though. If there were a mother of All it would be Eve the first woman ever created.

 

[SolomonVII]

Mary is not the mother of all though. If there were a mother of All it would be Eve the first woman ever created.

There is the idea that we are the brothers and sisters of Christ, adopted by him unto the father.

 

[MamaZ]

There is the idea that we are the brothers and sisters of Christ, adopted by him unto the father.

I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.

 

[SolomonVII]

I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.

Abba means father. Other than that, we ought not call out like that because there is no God the mother.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.

And yet if Christ is our adoptive Brother, then His mother is our adoptive mother. It's therefore theologically acceptable to refer to Mary using maternal language. One doesn't have to obviously, but it's birthed out of explicitly biblical teaching. There is no harm in referring to she who gave birth to our Savior and God with loving and affectionate language. All human beings are worthy of being addressed and spoken of lovingly and affectionately, so it seems logical to me that at the very least the same could be said of the Blessed Virgin mother of our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran