"You didn't build that ... "

[Lovely Lane]

Speaker of House Gingrich was a cry-baby and hypocrite. I don't think he has changed much, the GOP types didn't much appreciate his recent efforts either. lol

 

[Lovely Lane]

I don't believe George Bush was a socialist. Sure, the economy crashed and we lost jobs because of his harebrained policies. But just because we gained millions of jobs under Clinton and lost millions under Bush doesn't automatically make him a socialist.

"W" was as much as a socialist as any other president I know of. Look at they programs he approved of. Bailing out Wall St was an act of socialism defined by GOP types, and the Faith-based program he penned through Executive Order was a socialist program according to definition from GOP types. Cutiing taxes for the wealthy and corporations plus leaving in place tax credits and subsidies is a socialist plan of action according to the definitions that the GOP types toss around here.

Guess the bottom line is only Democratic politicians are socialists, the Republicans are just warmhearted good guy's.

 

[TheChristianSurvivalGuide]

Speaker of House Gingrich was a cry-baby and hypocrite. I don't think he has changed much, the GOP types didn't much appreciate his recent efforts either. lol

And how exactly does any of that negate his contributions to the job market during Clinton's administration?

 

[ameriswede]

Nice. Only problem is, all that wonderful stuff comes with an income tax rate of 57.77% -- more than twice the US middle income tax bracket rate.

Nothing is free. You have all those benefits because people who make more than you have paid for it, at the expense of their own ability to live at the level they wish to live.

Perhaps Swedes believe that is equitable. Most in the US don't, though it is getting to be a lesser majority every year, thanks to the lies the socialist/Marxist Occupy Movement and the hidden remnants of the likes of ACORN have told and managed to insinuate into the collective psyche of US citizens.

Enjoy your socialism. We want no part of it. Oh, there are some on here who will say they think it's great. It isn't their money that will be taken to pay for it, however.

Let me respond by first mentioning that I am American. Lived in USA until I was 32 years old. I have lived in Sweden for the past 22 years. In that respect, I have a certain advantage in having lived in both countries a considerable period of time, and have thus been able to see the advantages and disadvantages of both societies and systems of operation, close and up front. Before going further, the percentage of GDP that goes to taxes in Sweden is at current approximately 49% and approximately 33% in USA. I would suggest that this is the best tool to use when discussing taxes. (To illustrate why, let me say that I am in the upper middle income tax bracket, and pay only 31% in income tax. Which is misleading. You have to figure in all taxes that are payed: taxes on property, food, gas, alcohol, tobacco, travel, cosmetics etc...) So, a Swedish citizen pays about 16% more in tax, when ALL taxes are taken into consideration. (% of GDP)
Swedes pay more taxes than Americans, but though there is a certain degree of complaining accompanied by consistent calls for lower taxes, from the Right Wing, most Swedes are basically rather content with the system and how it benefits the Swedish society as a whole. Most are content with a middle class life, which a vast majority of the Swedish population lives. Sweden has a larger middle class than USA, fewer poor and fewer rich. USA is very individualistic and very capitalistic. (a capitalism that has been redefined in the USA of today, where it is corporate capitalism or raw capitalism that dictates the rules). You know, "eat or be eaten". Personally, I like the idea of a people deciding democratically, that some of the economic benefits of there nation's market based economy (Sweden is a market based economy), shall be reaped by all its people...and not just some of its people. I like the idea where a country says that those most important things in life, will be secured first, for all...through a tax system based on solidarity. Every parent needs to have quality time for the raising of children, everyone needs access to quality education, everyone needs access to quality health care, everyone needs support in the event of becoming unemployed, everyone needs a vacation, everyone needs to be able to retire one day and to be able to still put food on the table and have a roof over their head.
We are not talking communism or socialism, we are talking capitalism...steered by a social democracy. That gets my vote. I have seen the worst and best of both systems...USA needs to move away from the corporate capitalism that rules its land. For the benefit of the most.

 

[IisJustMe]

Let me respond by first mentioning that I am American. Lived in USA until I was 32 years old. I have lived in Sweden for the past 22 years.

I gathered that by your nickname.

In that respect, I have a certain advantage in having lived in both countries a considerable period of time, and have thus been able to see the advantages and disadvantages of both societies and systems of operation, close and up front. Before going further, the percentage of GDP that goes to taxes in Sweden is at current approximately 49% and approximately 33% in USA. I would suggest that this is the best tool to use when discussing taxes.

Let's do that. Here's the current rate in Sweden and 17 other countries, including the US, taking into account all taxation, including all those you listed later in your post.

Total taxation as % of GDP statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Taxation

You're number one in the world as 54.2%. You were a bit low with Sweden and bit high with the US. You might note that that 54.2% is just 3.5% lower than the total tax rate I quoted for Sweden in the last post.

Swedes pay more taxes than Americans, but though there is a certain degree of complaining accompanied by consistent calls for lower taxes, from the Right Wing, most Swedes are basically rather content with the system and how it benefits the Swedish society as a whole.

Obviously not those that you refer to with a somewhat derogatory "Right Wing" appellation, or they wouldn't be calling consistently for lower taxes, would they? Forgive me for my bluntness, but those of you in Sweden who are "content" have simply acquiesced to the notion that long lines at the doctor's office, long waits for specialists, lengthy stays on waiting lists for non-emergency or elective surgeries and the sneaking suspicion that the older you get, the less of a priority you are for the state health system.

USA is very individualistic and very capitalistic. (a capitalism that has been redefined in the USA of today, where it is corporate capitalism or raw capitalism that dictates the rules). You know, "eat or be eaten".

I see you buy into the Occupy Movement's rhetoric. The concept is so far from the truth, yet you won't ever acknowledge it.

Personally, I like the idea of a people deciding democratically, that some of the economic benefits of there nation's market based economy (Sweden is a market based economy), shall be reaped by all its people...and not just some of its people. I like the idea where a country says that those most important things in life, will be secured first, for all...through a tax system based on solidarity. Every parent needs to have quality time for the raising of children, everyone needs access to quality education, everyone needs access to quality health care, everyone needs support in the event of becoming unemployed, everyone needs a vacation, everyone needs to be able to retire one day and to be able to still put food on the table and have a roof over their head.

All very "convincing" Occupy rhetoric. This broad-paint-stroke picture of corporate avarice, greed, anti-family nonsense is so far from the truth in the vast majority of corporations as to render this more a caricature of the truth than being anywhere near accurate. There are 31 million corporations in the United States, the vast majority of them S corporations or LLCs, i.e., 100 or fewer principles and the vast majority sole proprietorship or less than half a dozen stock holders.

This is corporation America, not Exxon-Mobile, Wall Street or the banking industry. These companies are not the epitome of corporate greed, they are the epitome of the American dream, entrepreneurship and family and community. These companies don't "eat the worker alive" they encourage worker satisfaction, family first and keeping talented people well rested, enthusiastic and yes, productive, but that's not a dirty word.

The Fortune 1000 have a fair share of companies -- perhaps 2-3% -- that take advantage of their workers and are not good corporate citizens. Note, that's about the same percentage of individuals who are criminals and believe the rules are not for them. No where near a majority, no where near a "corporate climate" as you and Occupy would have the world believe.

We are not talking communism or socialism, we are talking capitalism...steered by a social democracy. That gets my vote. I have seen the worst and best of both systems...USA needs to move away from the corporate capitalism that rules its land. For the benefit of the most.

And again, you have bought the image the media and the socialist activists have promoted, not the truth. Sorry my ex-patriot friend, but you really don't know what you're speaking of, and yes, you are is a socialist country.

 

[ameriswede]

oops!

 

[ameriswede]

oops!

1. Your Nationmaster source is using outdated statistics from the year 2000. Sweden is currently at less than 50% of GDP. But wether it is 16% or 20% is of no greater relevance to the discussion. (Right Wing has been in power and has lowered taxes and cut benefits).
2. My wife has been on 50% disability for 10 years. (70% of salary is current compensation). My son broke his collar bone. My daughter is gluten intolerant. I have skin cancer. We have received nothing but quality care. The vast majority of Swedes are satisfied with health care system. They would like to pay lower taxes, but are not willing to sacrifice quality health care. Approx. 6% of GDP goes to health care and 100% of population has access, even illegals. USA pays approx 11% and you have MAJOR problems with health care system, that the world knows about. You have been exposed to an excess of propaganda about "socialized medicine". Might want to view Michael Morris "left wing propaganda" to balance your perspective.
3. My corporate capitalism comment stemmed from the consolidation of wealth in USA. 1% of population bathes in 37% of its wealth. People on the outside looking in, are beginning to wonder how "democratic" USA is anymore, as SuperPACS have been set free to "inform" people of what is best for America. Please.
4. Define what you mean by "socialist", and then we can discuss wether Sweden is a socialist country. Swedes consider themselves to live in a country that is based on a free market economy, that is in a democratic way, in some ways regulated by a government that is by the people and for the people. A social democracy, free market economy. I don't necessarily dislike the term "socialist", just as long as we define it in the same way. At any rate, Sweden's economy is stable and its social welfare system equitable.
5. New at this and if you can quickly explain how separated your comments to the quotes you selected...please do!

 

[ameriswede]

​

​

(In response to you insisting that Sweden is a socialist country. It is not socialist, in the negative sense, that you may choose to imply. Any system is a mix of capitalism and socialism. Sweden leans more towards socialism than USA. I would argue that USA is too far to the right, when taking into consideration, not just the welfare of the successful, but even that of the less than successful. In other words, it is somewhat lacking in solidarity, to put it as gently as I can.)







Saab, GM, Chrysler and Why Sweden is More Capitalist than the US



The usual image we have of the Swedish economy is that they’re all rather dreary socialists, revelling in being able to charge some of the highest tax rates in the world. However, there are certain dimensions along which it is possible to prove that Sweden is more capitalist than the US.

Swedish car maker Saab may finally have secured its future after Chinese groups Pang Da and Youngman agreed to buy the company for €100m (£88m).
The loss-making Saab is in bankruptcy protection after failing to pay suppliers. It has not produced a car at its famous Trollhaettan base since April.
Numerous attempts to secure emergency funding for Saab, which employs 3,700 staff, have broken down, and Swedish courts appeared on the verge of scrapping its bankruptcy protection – leaving the company at the mercy of creditors.
​

The reaction to the local car company going bankrupt is rather different in the two countries. When GM decided that it didn’t want to keep subsidising Saab’s losses, the Swedish government said, in effect, that if no one wanted to buy it then of course it should go bankrupt. That no one actually wants it is proof perfect that there should be no government subsidy.
The Swedish government has been as good as its word too: when Spyker bought Saab they didn’t interfere, when Saab went bankrupt they didn’t interfere and now the Chinese have bought it they didn’t interfere.
This is just one of the ways in which Sweden just isn’t as socialist or left-wing or even modern day liberal as many seem to think. The country has no national minimum wage, no inheritance tax, capital and certainly corporate taxes are lower than in the US, in fact, the tax system as a whole is less progressive than that of the US or UK. It just isn’t what many seem to think it is.

(This was taken from FORBES, thought you might find that amusing.)

 

[God's Fighter]

Hehe

 

[RaiseTheDead]

the percentage of GDP that goes to taxes in Sweden is at current approximately 49% and approximately 33% in USA.

That latter figure is false. It is an intentional misrepresentation, by our wonderful blood sucking leeches known as the US Gov't. It is propaganda, pure and simple. By the time you add all the taxes that aren't disclosed as income tax, the figure is WAY higher. (Tax freedom day suggests over 42%, which is less than the 16% gap vs Sweden you claimed)

 

[RaiseTheDead]

The vast majority of Swedes are satisfied with health care system. They would like to pay lower taxes, but are not willing to sacrifice quality health care. Approx. 6% of GDP goes to health care and 100% of population has access, even illegals. USA pays approx 11% and you have MAJOR problems with health care system

Many people pay close to 1/2 their salary for healthcare, after taxes! Not too many pretend that the US healthcare system is anything other than a mess. The issue is that Obamacare does nothing to fix the mess, and potentially quite a bit to make it messier.

4. Define what you mean by "socialist", and then we can discuss wether Sweden is a socialist country. Swedes consider themselves to live in a country that is based on a free market economy, that is in a democratic way, in some ways regulated by a government that is by the people and for the people. A social democracy

Yup, by any actual definition, Sweden is not a socialist Nation. These words get thrown around sloppily lately, what with the polarization of our society on yet another front: socialization of this that or the other, vs not. Personally, I wonder of socializing medicine might not be the only way to actually lower the cost of healthcare, but I also wonder what would happen to our supply of healthcare providers. The best ones could simply refuse to practice, live off their investments, etc.

 

[ameriswede]

That latter figure is false. It is an intentional misrepresentation, by our wonderful blood sucking leeches known as the US Gov't. It is propaganda, pure and simple. By the time you add all the taxes that aren't disclosed as income tax, the figure is WAY higher. (Tax freedom day suggests over 42%, which is less than the 16% gap vs Sweden you claimed)

Actually, if the actuall gap was 9% instead of 16% that would be to my advantage in the discussion.
The unrelenting argument for capitalism (USA), and against what staunch advocates of American style capitalism will label as "socialism" (Sweden) is that the taxes there are so high. Swedish parents get 18 months paternal leave at 80% of salary, free health care, free college education, minimum of five weeks vacation, unemployment and retirement benefits you can live on...and so the consistent (misinformed or blatantly dishonest) argument from "the right" is that everything is of poor quality in "socialist" countries and the taxes are high.
The taxes are high...the difference (the gap) is more than likely more than 42% (USA) to 50% (Sweden).
But my point was and is, that Swedes or "socialists" get a LOT for the higher taxes, and EACH AND EVERY PERSON has the same access to these benefits. My son is studying to be a Civil Engineer (Swedes are among the best engineers in the world) and is studying 5 years towards his degree. (total estimated cost: $125,000) (he actually get payed $400 a month from the goverment through the duration of his studies). Everyone has this possibility, even if you are a refugee that has been forced to take refuge in Sweden...maternal leave, health care, education. Taxes are high, they are a way of seeing to it that everyone gets basic benefits, from the free market economy.

 

[ameriswede]

Many people pay close to 1/2 their salary for healthcare, after taxes! Not too many pretend that the US healthcare system is anything other than a mess. The issue is that Obamacare does nothing to fix the mess, and potentially quite a bit to make it messier.



Yup, by any actual definition, Sweden is not a socialist Nation. These words get thrown around sloppily lately, what with the polarization of our society on yet another front: socialization of this that or the other, vs not. Personally, I wonder of socializing medicine might not be the only way to actually lower the cost of healthcare, but I also wonder what would happen to our supply of healthcare providers. The best ones could simply refuse to practice, live off their investments, etc.

I really don't understand what Americans don't get. USA pays more than any other country in the world per capita, for health care. Over 11% of GDP. Yet there are still those un-insured, or under-insured. In Sweden, 7% of GDP goes to health care, and it is quality health care (not perfect, but good quality) for every single individual.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

the consistent (misinformed or blatantly dishonest) argument from "the right" is that everything is of poor quality in "socialist" countries and the taxes are high.

But my point was and is, that Swedes or "socialists" get a LOT for the higher taxes

And THAT is the real issue! With the economy of scale, pooling resources together should create better purchasing power and greater efficiency. I won't opine who does that better, Sweden Norway or Denmark, but clearly the buffoons in the US Gov't are not in that running. They should all be put on less than minimum wage, and fired after a year, being told to go do something productive. And then laughed at when they prove they can't.

 

[IisJustMe]

... and so the consistent (misinformed or blatantly dishonest) argument from "the right" is that everything is of poor quality in "socialist" countries and the taxes are high.

Your own figures have proven that they are high, and that your socialism costs a great deal more than you are willing to admit, in addition to creating a poor or false quality of life.

Why not ask the businesses in Sweden if they like having to provide 18 months familial leave at 80% of salary while paying someone else to be productive in the position that is vacated at 100% of salary? That is a high price to pay for something that in the US is accepted as the cost of juggling a family and a job. You may think that's a terrible decision to have to make. The reality is that God didn't intend for a working mother in the sense Sweden enables it, and our idiot president seems to think is a good model to emulate.

Look at the Proverbs 31 woman. Wife, mother, businesswoman -- in that order, by the way -- without sacrificing any of those roles or forgetting which ones are more important. Society in general, and liberal/socialist governments in particular, have undermined the family with this kind of nonsense that costs taxpayers money they should never have had to pay, and made it more expensive to live in this world. Additionally, forcing businesses to pay, even if they are reimbursed by the government, is not only cost prohibitive, it manufactures an aura of promoting family values when it in fact undermines them by creating a false image of balanced career and motherhood that can't develop and continue to exist in an 18-month paid leave.

The taxes are high...the difference (the gap) is more than likely more than 42% (USA) to 50% (Sweden).

Much more.

But my point was and is, that Swedes or "socialists" get a LOT for the higher taxes, and EACH AND EVERY PERSON has the same access to these benefits.

So what? At what cost of quality of life? Being robbed of your own wealth to assure that everyone else has a "fair shot" at a good life actually promotes what you fear most: A cultural and financial elite with a far greater gap between your middle class and your "rich." The system is more likely to encourage greed and avarice for those who hate having their money robbed from them at the point of a tax form, to the point they grasp and claw for every dime (the very attitude you wrongfully accused the US corporate culture of fomenting) so that these elitists can climb far enough above the pack that taking nearly 60% of their income still can't hurt them that much. This is better? In God's name, how?

 

[Lovely Lane]

good one, lets blame the sin of man on a form of government, socialism, that doesn't exist in US. And not stop there, place blame of family failures too, and why not toss in some hatred of taxes. Taxes, what good are taxes?

Yep, I think the con's have found a whipping boy to lay the blame of all things they do not like, that dreaded and elusive 'socialist'.

I liked that show, where con's explain the blessings of capitalism while riding a bike on a tight rope balancing a stack of dishes on a stick while attached to a lie detector that buzzes and flashes a red light when a lie is told. Lot's of buzzing and flashing of red light going on, and we're working on the fourth stack of dishes. GOP Primaries

...and the winner of Primaries goes to Mitt the Twit.

For if you built it, he can tear it down, cut & gut it, out-source the jobs to China, raid the pension funds and leave town within a weeks time.

 

[ulu]

And THAT is the real issue! With the economy of scale, pooling resources together should create better purchasing power and greater efficiency. I won't opine who does that better, Sweden Norway or Denmark, but clearly the buffoons in the US Gov't are not in that running. They should all be put on less than minimum wage, and fired after a year, being told to go do something productive. And then laughed at when they prove they can't.

I agree with that. Also the hatred they have for each other hurts everyone in the end.

 

[ameriswede]

Your own figures have proven that they are high, and that your socialism costs a great deal more than you are willing to admit, in addition to creating a poor or false quality of life.

Why not ask the businesses in Sweden if they like having to provide 18 months familial leave at 80% of salary while paying someone else to be productive in the position that is vacated at 100% of salary? That is a high price to pay for something that in the US is accepted as the cost of juggling a family and a job. You may think that's a terrible decision to have to make. The reality is that God didn't intend for a working mother in the sense Sweden enables it, and our idiot president seems to think is a good model to emulate.

Look at the Proverbs 31 woman. Wife, mother, businesswoman -- in that order, by the way -- without sacrificing any of those roles or forgetting which ones are more important. Society in general, and liberal/socialist governments in particular, have undermined the family with this kind of nonsense that costs taxpayers money they should never have had to pay, and made it more expensive to live in this world. Additionally, forcing businesses to pay, even if they are reimbursed by the government, is not only cost prohibitive, it manufactures an aura of promoting family values when it in fact undermines them by creating a false image of balanced career and motherhood that can't develop and continue to exist in an 18-month paid leave.Much more.So what? At what cost of quality of life? Being robbed of your own wealth to assure that everyone else has a "fair shot" at a good life actually promotes what you fear most: A cultural and financial elite with a far greater gap between your middle class and your "rich." The system is more likely to encourage greed and avarice for those who hate having their money robbed from them at the point of a tax form, to the point they grasp and claw for every dime (the very attitude you wrongfully accused the US corporate culture of fomenting) so that these elitists can climb far enough above the pack that taking nearly 60% of their income still can't hurt them that much. This is better? In God's name, how?

1. It is a matter of fact that Sweden pays amongst the highest taxes in the world. That is no news to me. What you are missing, is that ALL Swedes have access to quality health care, education and a whole bunch of other "benefits" that far from all Americans have access to. In one word, SOLIDARITY.
2. 18 month paternal leave means costs to both businesses and private people through the tax system. It is a great opportunity to spend quality time raising children, something which Swedes value very highly. (Child care systems ranks among the highest in the world)
3. Yes, Sweden has the highest percentage of women in the work force. Sweden ranks first in the world regarding equality between men and women, and even the rights of children. Facts that Swedes are proud of.
4. Regarding quality of life, Sweden ranks amongst the very highest in the world, it is a long way down to USA.
5. Again, it is not a perfect system. But my opinion is that any system is a mix of capitalism and socialism. My life experience of 32 years in USA's more raw form of capitalism, as compared to my 22 years of life experience in Swedens "cradle to grave" more solidarity minded socially softened capitalism...has some very clear advantages, for the well being of a society as a whole.
6. I must say that I find it surprising that so many Christian Americans are so focused on the Almight Dollar.

 

[ameriswede]

Your own figures have proven that they are high, and that your socialism costs a great deal more than you are willing to admit, in addition to creating a poor or false quality of life.

Why not ask the businesses in Sweden if they like having to provide 18 months familial leave at 80% of salary while paying someone else to be productive in the position that is vacated at 100% of salary? That is a high price to pay for something that in the US is accepted as the cost of juggling a family and a job. You may think that's a terrible decision to have to make. The reality is that God didn't intend for a working mother in the sense Sweden enables it, and our idiot president seems to think is a good model to emulate.

Look at the Proverbs 31 woman. Wife, mother, businesswoman -- in that order, by the way -- without sacrificing any of those roles or forgetting which ones are more important. Society in general, and liberal/socialist governments in particular, have undermined the family with this kind of nonsense that costs taxpayers money they should never have had to pay, and made it more expensive to live in this world. Additionally, forcing businesses to pay, even if they are reimbursed by the government, is not only cost prohibitive, it manufactures an aura of promoting family values when it in fact undermines them by creating a false image of balanced career and motherhood that can't develop and continue to exist in an 18-month paid leave.Much more.So what? At what cost of quality of life? Being robbed of your own wealth to assure that everyone else has a "fair shot" at a good life actually promotes what you fear most: A cultural and financial elite with a far greater gap between your middle class and your "rich." The system is more likely to encourage greed and avarice for those who hate having their money robbed from them at the point of a tax form, to the point they grasp and claw for every dime (the very attitude you wrongfully accused the US corporate culture of fomenting) so that these elitists can climb far enough above the pack that taking nearly 60% of their income still can't hurt them that much. This is better? In God's name, how?

Just wanted to add regarding quality of life. I have no figures on this, but let me suggest that the procentual breakup is different in Sweden/USA when talking about "classes".

Sweden has a larger percentage in the middle class and fewer poor people.
USA has more rich people.

I prefer the Swedish systems "distribution of wealth".

 

[Lovely Lane]

ameriswede; thanks for informing us of how it really is over there, much appreciated.