Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[he-man]

To "have power over" someone you must be able to force them to do something against their will. Nowhere does the Bible use such terminology to describe mediums.
Familiar spirits are a recent belief that did not exist before the Middle Ages and was a belief peculiar to Britian and France.
Luther only espoused belief in soul sleep early on. He later renounced it, claiming, “The soul does not sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, and has converse with them." - LUTHER'S WORKS
Gently Broken: Separate But Not Equal

Not really, the Dead in Christ, are asleep symbolically, awaiting the return of their "SPIRIT" in the resurrection.

As for familar spirits you can see what happens to them: Let us see now, what was the Vodouisants religion of the island when the Creole language of Haiti was hit by the Tsunami? what was the Vodouisants religion of the Creole language of New Orleans?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I thought that you didn't believe in demons and devils?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here is an extremely clear reference to a conscious afterlife:

And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
Whom I, even I, shall see for myself and on my side! And my eyes shall behold Him, and not as a stranger! My heart pines away and is consumed within me.
Job 19:26-27
​

And here is an extremely clear reference to eternal torment:

The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling seizes the godless ones. [They cry] Who among us can dwell with that devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with those everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14


​

 

[Timothew]

Here is an extremely clear reference to a conscious afterlife:

And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
Whom I, even I, shall see for myself and on my side! And my eyes shall behold Him, and not as a stranger! My heart pines away and is consumed within me.
Job 19:26-27
​

And here is an extremely clear reference to eternal torment:

The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling seizes the godless ones. [They cry] Who among us can dwell with that devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with those everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14


​

It is incredible that you look at these verses and see eternal torment in them. Job says that he will see God with his own eyes, after he has been destroyed. Clearly this is AFTER he has been resurrected to life again. Otherwise he wouldn't have eyes, but after he is resurrected he certainly would have eyes.

Isaiah 33:14 specifically says that people can NOT dwell in the everlasting burnings. If it were as you say, and the wicked were burned alive forever, then they WOULD dwell in the everlasting burnings. Look at the verse in the NASB,
Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?”

It even says "consuming" fire, a fire that consumes what it burns up.

It's too bad that you can't see this.

 

[LutheranMafia]

It is incredible that you look at these verses and see eternal torment in them. Job says that he will see God with his own eyes, after he has been destroyed. Clearly this is AFTER he has been resurrected to life again. Otherwise he wouldn't have eyes, but after he is resurrected he certainly would have eyes.

Job says, "then from my flesh or without it I shall see God". Being without flesh is not resurrected.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Job says that he will see God with his own eyes, after he has been destroyed.

It even says "consuming" fire, a fire that consumes what it burns up.

It's too bad that you can't see this.

Since we apparently agree Job can "see" after he has been "destroyed" by death, it is too bad so many are blind to seeing "destroyed" and "consume" in a different light. A light in which neither word has to mean total annihilation.

 

[he-man]

Since we apparently agree Job can "see" after he has been "destroyed" by death, it is too bad so many are blind to seeing "destroyed" and "consume" in a different light. A light in which neither word has to mean total annihilation.

And where is your scripture?
Oftentimes A LIGHT indeed! 'to be enlightened with the light of the living.''I have found a ransom. ' 'for he will render unto man his righteousness''and I shall teach thee wisdom. '

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul,<H5315 nephesh> from going into the grave,<H7845 shachath> and his life shall see the light.

29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30 To bring back his soul from the grave, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

31 Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I will speak.
32 If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.
33 If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.

Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

 

[2ducklow]

It is incredible that you look at these verses and see eternal torment in them. Job says that he will see God with his own eyes, after he has been destroyed. Clearly this is AFTER he has been resurrected to life again. Otherwise he wouldn't have eyes, but after he is resurrected he certainly would have eyes.

Isaiah 33:14 specifically says that people can NOT dwell in the everlasting burnings. If it were as you say, and the wicked were burned alive forever, then they WOULD dwell in the everlasting burnings. Look at the verse in the NASB,
Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
&#8220;Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?&#8221;

It even says "consuming" fire, a fire that consumes what it burns up.

It's too bad that you can't see this.

Isa.33.10 Now, will I arise, Saith Yahweh, Now, will I lift myself up, Now, will I be exalted! 11 Ye shall conceive chaff Ye shall bring forth stubble,--Your own breath, like fire, shall devour you. 12 So shall peoples, become, as the burnings of lime,--As thorns lopped off, with fire, shall they be burned. 13 Hear--ye that are far off. what I have done, And know--ye that are near my might: 14 Terror-stricken in Zion,--are sinners, Shuddering hath seized the impious,--Who among us can sojourn with a fire that devoureth? Who among us can sojourn with burnings age-abiding?

it says peoples will become as the burnings of lime and thorns. So if people are as burnings of lime, and burnings of lime = burnings everlasting as the verses state, whatever the exact meaning is is unclear, at least to me. Saying it means people burn forever or don't isn't clear from those verses, at least to me it isn't.

Personally, I don't believe there is a literal lake of fire. I believe it's just an analogy, but whatever being thrown into a lake of fire is analagous to, is extremely awfull and I don't wanna go there or wish that anyone would go there.

 

[he-man]

Isa.33.10 Now, will I arise, Saith Yahweh, Now, will I lift myself up, Now, will I be exalted! 11 Ye shall conceive chaff Ye shall bring forth stubble,--Your own breath, like fire, shall devour you. 12 So shall peoples, become, as the burnings of lime,--As thorns lopped off, with fire, shall they be burned. 13 Hear--ye that are far off. what I have done, And know--ye that are near my might: 14 Terror-stricken in Zion,--are sinners, Shuddering hath seized the impious,--Who among us can sojourn with a fire that devoureth? Who among us can sojourn with burnings age-abiding?

it says peoples will become as the burnings of lime and thorns. So if people are as burnings of lime, and burnings of lime = burnings everlasting as the verses state, whatever the exact meaning is is unclear, at least to me. Saying it means people burn forever or don't isn't clear from those verses, at least to me it isn't.

You cannot dwell or exist in a fire that devoureth, especially when it is Your own breath, like fire, that shall devour you.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Job 18:12 His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
Job 18:13 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength

 

[2ducklow]

You cannot dwell or exist in a fire that devoureth, especially when it is Your own breath, like fire, that shall devour you.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Job 18:12 His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
Job 18:13 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength

what do you make of verse 10 that says the people become as burnings ? Isn't it saying they become the fire? plus the verse you quoted says "who SHALL NOT CAN dwell with fire.?" Shall and can create two differnet meanings for the verse.

It seems to be saying to me that people will die if they are thrown in a fire. They can't live there as they live here on earth. mat. says both body and soul are cast into the lake of fire. obviously a body would be burnt up but does that mean a soul would? why would the fire last forever if it's intended victums cease to exist in body and soul once thrown in? Makes more sense to me that the soul burns forever if the fire they are thown into furns forever. what happens to a soul when it's cast into a fire? what does the b ible say? I don't know realy.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

since man cannot kill the soul, would it not be logical to assume that a fire cannot kill a soul? Cause I mean man would throw your soul in a fire if he threw your bod in a fire, but the verse says he cannot destroy your soul. So to me it's only logical, from those verses, that fire doesn't destroy our soul.

 

[strangertoo]

Hell is the bad side of Sheoul,

There's nothing bad about hell, Jesus called it a 'sleep' and emerged to life again from hell none the worse for it , much more alive in fact....

All are released from their sleep in hell according to Jesus [Rev 20:13] and freed from sin by it[Rom 6:7], returned to life then with an opportunity to Love in obedience to Jesus as Lord instead of sinning against God and men again... a second chance for amny to be saved and countless many are saved later ,after resurrection from hell [Rev 7:9-10] who obviously were destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13]

 

[createdtoworship]

what do you make of verse 10 that says the people become as burnings ? Isn't it saying they become the fire? plus the verse you quoted says "who SHALL NOT CAN dwell with fire.?" Shall and can create two differnet meanings for the verse.

It seems to be saying to me that people will die if they are thrown in a fire. They can't live there as they live here on earth. mat. says both body and soul are cast into the lake of fire. obviously a body would be burnt up but does that mean a soul would? why would the fire last forever if it's intended victums cease to exist in body and soul once thrown in? Makes more sense to me that the soul burns forever if the fire they are thown into furns forever. what happens to a soul when it's cast into a fire? what does the b ible say? I don't know realy.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

since man cannot kill the soul, would it not be logical to assume that a fire cannot kill a soul? Cause I mean man would throw your soul in a fire if he threw your bod in a fire, but the verse says he cannot destroy your soul. So to me it's only logical, from those verses, that fire doesn't destroy our soul.

good point, fire does not destroy the soul. Which means that the second death, must be something worse that just annihilation.

 

[strangertoo]

good point, fire does not destroy the soul. Which means that the second death, must be something worse that just annihilation.

the second death for those who sin in the new earth kingdom of Jesus come at last to all men resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] is little different from the first, in that it is simply the way of resetting a soul free of sin [Rom 6:7] to yet again have an opportunity to Love and be one with God ...

the slight differences are that God denies a third death , death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire [so clearly there is no etrnal hell, proving it was all just a foolish mistranslation of the words in both Greek and Hebrew referring only to an age , not to some mythical impossible infinity of time beyond the end of the space-time universes]

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

so one is allowed at most two suicides in one's shame at being a sinner when one finally admits it to God and if one is still not ready to repent....

the other difference is that one has already been baptised to know all Truth of God [John 16:13, Joel 2:28] so one knows time goes on until one repents and faces baptism of fire, trial of Love to perfect it in life...

 

[razeontherock]

t
the slight differences are that God denies a third death , death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire [so clearly there is no etrnal hell, proving it was all just a foolish mistranslation of the words in both Greek and Hebrew referring only to an age , not to some mythical impossible infinity of time beyond the end of the space-time universes]

I cannot affirm this as being a possible intent of Scripture

 

[strangertoo]

what do you make of verse 10 that says the people become as burnings ? Isn't it saying they become the fire? plus the verse you quoted says "who SHALL NOT CAN dwell with fire.?" Shall and can create two differnet meanings for the verse.

It seems to be saying to me that people will die if they are thrown in a fire. They can't live there as they live here on earth. mat. says both body and soul are cast into the lake of fire. obviously a body would be burnt up but does that mean a soul would? why would the fire last forever if it's intended victums cease to exist in body and soul once thrown in? Makes more sense to me that the soul burns forever if the fire they are thown into furns forever. what happens to a soul when it's cast into a fire? what does the b ible say? I don't know realy.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

since man cannot kill the soul, would it not be logical to assume that a fire cannot kill a soul? Cause I mean man would throw your soul in a fire if he threw your bod in a fire, but the verse says he cannot destroy your soul. So to me it's only logical, from those verses, that fire doesn't destroy our soul.

You are confusing soul and spirit ... look at this to understand better what they are :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath ['ruah', spirit] of life; and man became a living soul.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

the soul did not exist without the spirit , spirit and body togteher create the soul ,and without the spirit the body is dead... so the soul is the life of the body... and it certainly begins ... and ends at death ...

but note that the spirit of a man does NOT end , it is of God , endless, not even subject to ending ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

so it is the spirit which is the essence of a man that survives death and from which one is resurrected, transfigured, manifested to life in the body...

 

[razeontherock]

The soul is the product of the merger of spirit and body. Further, we ARE a soul. (Per the Scripture you just quoted)

 

[createdtoworship]

the second death for those who sin in the new earth kingdom of Jesus come at last to all men resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] is little different from the first, in that it is simply the way of resetting a soul free of sin [Rom 6:7] to yet again have an opportunity to Love and be one with God ...

the slight differences are that God denies a third death , death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire [so clearly there is no etrnal hell, proving it was all just a foolish mistranslation of the words in both Greek and Hebrew referring only to an age , not to some mythical impossible infinity of time beyond the end of the space-time universes]

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

so one is allowed at most two suicides in one's shame at being a sinner when one finally admits it to God and if one is still not ready to repent....

the other difference is that one has already been baptised to know all Truth of God [John 16:13, Joel 2:28] so one knows time goes on until one repents and faces baptism of fire, trial of Love to perfect it in life...

 

[strangertoo]

it seems rather obviously a false picture, FEW find the way in this life [Matt 7:14] and the many are then destroyed [Matt 7:13] along with this earth and heavens in the wrath of God against ALL sinners

so the countless many saved later [Rev 7:9-10] are saved in the new earth by works after death when all are resurrected from hell AFTER the Millennium [because the kingdom is built during the millennium for the very purpose to minister to and rule the many sinners when resurrected]

 

[strangertoo]

The soul is the product of the merger of spirit and body. Further, we ARE a soul. (Per the Scripture you just quoted)

We are the soul as far as most are concerned in life... but we can hardly be the soul in translation to spirit [salvation] when there is no physical body...

the third heaven , paradise of the spirit [2 Corinthians 12:2-4], has no physical realm counterpart, no third earth , whereas the first two heavens do have a physical earth ...

the earths are created within two universes, that is what God 'does', create worlds [which eventually end along with their [thus finite] time ...]

so as a man we perceive our soul ,'life' , but as life began for us so it ends , and then our reality is spirit, not soul ... our 'life' is as God in spirit [and the spirit has no individuals, no division, no disagreement or conflict within, no time, no change...] , it is NOT like life as a soul :-

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [in death], but we shall all be changed

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

this is salvation, translation to spirit in the tird heaven, 'paradise', endless 'life' of the spirit , no soul unless one manifests as an messenger [angelos] of God ...

the soul only exists as life as we know it as a man with the spirit AND a body...

the spirit cannot be endlessly in the body because the body will die ... the spirit's 'home' than is paradise , it is cast out or sent on missions from God to creations, endless creations which end, but always it returns to God and is no different ,is unchanged ... it is only the soul then that suffers change and death, pain and suffering, tears and desires, for sin and for Love... but it all ends and there is no end to creations that begin and end... butonly the spirit remains the same at the end of each.... no soul, no bodies, no matter, no time, no space ...

 

[createdtoworship]

it seems rather obviously a false picture, FEW find the way in this life [Matt 7:14] and the many are then destroyed [Matt 7:13] along with this earth and heavens in the wrath of God against ALL sinners

so the countless many saved later [Rev 7:9-10] are saved in the new earth by works after death when all are resurrected from hell AFTER the Millennium [because the kingdom is built during the millennium for the very purpose to minister to and rule the many sinners when resurrected]

thy kingdom comes, the Bible says.....not built. And Israel will be the head of the nations and Jesus will sit on the throne of david. We will travel back and forth from the new jerusalem to police the world, rule, and reign. We will also judge angels the Bible says. Then after the renovation of the earth and a new heaven and new earth come the new jerusalem will touch down in the middle east. It is then we will have an eternal estate and be able to enjoy heaven, after the millenial reign on earth for 1000 years.