Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[IOWLBNIF]

so why was samuel conjured up at all? If it was merely demonic and God was not involved what so ever? Does Satan have power over death?

Ummm YES



Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil



the evil one is the "Destroying Angel"

 

[createdtoworship]

Ummm YES



Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil



the evil one is the "Destroying Angel"

I know the verse, but can satan raise the dead? I don't think so.

 

[IOWLBNIF]

you know the verse, but ask the question? what else do you do this with.....or do you just ignore the verse?


"Samuel" wasnt "Resurrected" lol

^that (resurrection) only happens at the end of age


IF the evil one can call fire down from heaven

and if the evil one can breathe the breath of Life into an inanimate object



Then i wouldnt put it past him, ala God allowing it.....


It seems my friend grady, that you underestimate the second most powerful being in the universe....


Behind the Father/Christ of course.......


Be careful that you arent deceived........stop thinking you, a mere mortal human, know how deep the wiles of the evil one goes





And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

 

[createdtoworship]

you know the verse, but ask the question? what else do you do this with.....or do you just ignore the verse?


"Samuel" wasnt "Resurrected" lol

^that (resurrection) only happens at the end of age


IF the evil one can call fire down from heaven

and if the evil one can breathe the breath of Life into an inanimate object



Then i wouldnt put it past him, ala God allowing it.....


It seems my friend grady, that you underestimate the second most powerful being in the universe....


Behind the Father/Christ of course.......


Be careful that you arent deceived........stop thinking you, a mere mortal human, know how deep the wiles of the evil one goes





And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Satan can't raise the dead, most accept it figuratively as the roman empire

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed - Satan can not raise the dead -- but he can mimic them as in the case of the familiar spirit of the witch in 1Samuel 28 -- trying to fool the witch and her "client" into the claims of the seance in "conjuring up for me whomever I ask".

 

[BobRyan]

I said --No wonder the familiar spirit of the witch pretending to be Samuel says in 1Samuel 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?”

You keep on insisting that the witch does not work via a familiar spirit - but rather via God or via Samuel.

That is your choice - not mine.

The fact that the demons already knew that Samuel anointed David as the next king - is no news for them or us.

The fact that the demons knew that Saul was "going to a medium to inquire of IT -- instead of inquiring of the LORD" is no news to the demons or to those who read the text of scripture.

The fact that God turned Saul over to destruction for doing such a thing - is written clearly in 1Chron 10:13-14. Pretty hard to be confused there.

The fact that the witches work through the agency of familiar spirits is well documented in the Bible. No news there for demons or the readers of the Bible.

so why was samuel conjured up at all? If it was merely demonic and God was not involved what so ever? Does Satan have power over death?

Well if you "believe the witch" then you are supposed to believe that Satan and his servants (the familiar spirit and the witch) are able to conjure up any saint they wish - on command.

If you believe the Bible then the familiar spirits pretending to be the dead saints - are just lying.

I guess you have to make a choice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[he-man]

Agreed - Satan can not raise the dead -- but he can mimic them as in the case of the familiar spirit of the witch in 1Samuel 28 -- trying to fool the witch and her "client" into the claims of the seance in "conjuring up for me whomever I ask".

1 Chr 21:1 "the adversary" as shown by 2Sam 24:1

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from [so called]Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

You need to go to the next level of learning. Consider what Paul said and what he was speaking of was not the literal superstitious Satan but
"It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh; but its nature must remain a matter of conjecture." [JFB]

2 Cor 12:7
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger Satan/adversary, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Bob, your idea that when the Bible says, "Samuel said" that the Bible is in fact lying and it was not truly Samuel, shows no respect for the Bible. You man handle the Bible to say whatever you want.

If you believe the Bible then the familiar spirits pretending to be the dead saints - are just lying.

If you believe the Bible then it was Samuel that spoke to Saul. Nowhere does the Bible suggest otherwise. You are brain washed, Bob.

You keep on insisting that the witch does not work via a familiar spirit - but rather via God or via Samuel.

Mediums do not work by either the power of God or the power of Satan, mediums work because the dead can still be contacted. Nothing more and nothing less. It is forbidden because it is an extremely unhealthy practice for the living, and as Samuel says, the dead do not want to be disturbed.

Why would a demon complain about being awakened? A demon would LOVE to be consulted, Samuel's complaint about being awakened is totally consistent with it being the ghost of Samuel and totally inconsistent with this whimsical notion that it was a demon, especially considering the fact that the Bible gives no indication that a demon was involved.

In verse 13 the witch throws herself down in fear upon seeing "elohiym", a term generally used to refer to God or angels. It makes sense that she would be afraid of God, angels or saints. It does not make sense why she would be afraid an old familiar demon. If she always conjured demons then why would she throw herself to the ground in fear on this occasion???

 

[BobRyan]

1 Chr 21:1 "the adversary" as shown by 2Sam 24:1

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. ...
2 Cor 12:7
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger Satan/adversary, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In Christianity there is Satan - the Devil of Matt 4 and of Rev 12. He has angels - they were at war in heaven and were cast out.

Even in the OT you have Satan appearing in councils of heaven in Job 1 and 2.

God is real in Job 1 and 2, Satan is real, the earth is real, and Job was real.

I suggest that your subject of "is the devil real" be it's own thread. It is a topic that deserves focused attention.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, your idea that when the Bible says, "Samuel said" that the Bible is in fact lying

When the Bible says in Judges 9:8 that the "vine said" and "the bramble said" I don't think the Bible is lying - but it is interpreted in context.

In the OT witches are said to work via their familiar spirits - that is not a lie -- no not even in 1Samuel 28 where at no point does God say that He came in to "assist the witch" in her claim to "conjure up " any dead saint one might wish to visit with.

I realize this point is "supposed" to be confusing to someone - but really it is not at all confusing if you pay attention to the details.

In 1Chronicles 10:13-14 God notes that Saul is "inquiring of the medium" -- instead of "inquiring of God".

Had this been a real prophet - then as in all of scripture - to inquire of God's prophet is to "inquire of God".

It was instead "A medium" and Saul "inquired of IT".

It is just not that difficult for most Christians to understand that a seance is NOT an example of real communication with dead saints that mediums have the power to "conjure up on command".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Mediums do not work by either the power of God or the power of Satan, mediums work because the dead can still be contacted. Nothing more and nothing less.

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.

Many Christians suspect that is a lie and that God gives witches no such power over dead saints.

Apparently - some people actually agree with the witch.

In any case - be that as it may -

Turns out that God condemns the witches and their familiar spirits that engage in this deception.

Saul made inquiry of the "familiar spirit" according to the Bible - instead of inquiring of God.

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"


And the witch of Endore was sought out BECAUSE of her "familiar spirit" according to scripture. Surely scripture is not "lying"??!!

1. Leviticus 20:27
   A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
2. 1 Samuel 28:7
   Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
3. 1 Samuel 28:8
   And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
4. 1 Chronicles 10:13
   So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
5. 2 Chronicles 33:6
   And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
   
6. Isaiah 29:4
   And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Those who buy into the Genesis 3 story from Satan about humans not dying - will sometimes buy into the story told by witches - where they claim they have power to "conjure up" via their familiar spirits - anyone that you might wish among the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LutheranMafia]

When the Bible says in Judges 9:8 that the "vine said" and "the bramble said" I don't think the Bible is lying - but it is interpreted in context.

Those are metaphors. When the Bible says, "Samuel said" it is clearly not a metaphor. Your argument makes no sense here.

In the OT witches are said to work via their familiar spirits - that is not a lie

Only very old Bibles use the phrase familiar spirits. If you look in Bibles these days you won't find the phrase "familiar spirit" anywhere. Modern Bibles all say "medium".

no not even in 1Samuel 28 where at no point does God say that He came in to "assist the witch" in her claim to "conjure up " any dead saint one might wish to visit with.

Why does she throw herself down in fear when she sees Samuel? Is she afraid because she sees an old familiar demon that she has seen many times before? No, she is afraid because she sees, "elohiym". Elohiym generally means God or angels, but in this case it means the spirit of a saint. That is the only context in which the witch's fear makes any sense. It does not make any sense that she would be afraid of a demon if demons are all that she ever brought up.

I realize this point is "supposed" to be confusing to someone - but really it is not at all confusing if you pay attention to the details.

It is only confusing if you change the definitions of basic words, such that "Samuel said" really means "a demon said". Funny how the Bible gets confused and says saint when it really ment demon?

Had this been a real prophet - then as in all of scripture - to inquire of God's prophet is to "inquire of God".

It says that an elohiym was brought up, elohiym means God.

It is just not that difficult for most Christians to understand that a seance is NOT an example of real communication with dead saints that mediums have the power to "conjure up on command".

Seven eighths of Christians believe in an afterlife, so your statement here is false. MOST Christians do believe in something beyond mere material existence. Now if you are talking about most ATHEISTS, then you would have a point.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.

Does the fact that I can talk to you mean that I have "power over" you? Clearly not. Your use of canned phrases like this is a clear sign of brain washing. If the English language has to be redefined in order to make your point then you are making a very weak case.

Apparently - some people actually agree with the witch.

It it not the witch you are calling a liar, it is the Bible. The witch is not making any argument to be agreed with or disagreed with. It is the Bible that states that Samuel speaks, not the witch.

Turns out that God condemns the witches and their familiar spirits that engage in this deception.

No modern translation of the Bible still uses the term "familiar spirit". Your reliance on antiquated language that has not been in common usage for hundreds of years in the English language makes it clear that you are not think for yourself, you are brain washed.

Saul made inquiry of the "familiar spirit" according to the Bible - instead of inquiring of God.

Consulting with mediums is spiritually unhealthy, this the Bible confirms, but nowhere, not once, does the Bible say that the real "truth" is that true mediumship is impossible. It is dangerous precisely because it is possible. If what you are saying is true then the Bible would clearly state that mediumship is not real and that attempting it is dangerous because it calls up demons. Instead the Bible makes it very clear that mediumship is real.

And the witch of Endore was sought out BECAUSE of her "familiar spirit" according to scripture. Surely scripture is not "lying"??!!

No modern Bible uses the term "familiar spirit". It is a centuries antiquated mistranslation that is decieving you. The witch of Endor was sought out because she was a medium.

1. Leviticus 20:27
   A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.

1. 1 Samuel 28:7
   Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

1. 1 Samuel 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

1. 1 Chronicles 10:13
   So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance,

1. Isaiah 29:4
   And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Brought low, you will speak from the ground;
your speech will mumble out of the dust.
Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth;
out of the dust your speech will whisper.

None of these verses that you list are translated as "familiar spirits" in modern translations of the Bible. The term "familiar spirits" is pre-Shakespearean.

Those who buy into the Genesis 3 story from Satan about humans not dying - will sometimes buy into the story told by witches - where they claim they have power to "conjure up" via their familiar spirits - anyone that you might wish among the dead.

It is not the witch that you are accusing of lying, it is the Bible. It is not a question of whether or not you believe the witch, it is a question of whether or not you believe the Bible.

 

[createdtoworship]

why would command not to seek a familiar spirit unless it was a legitimate alternative to seeking God

 

[BobRyan]

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.

Does the fact that I can talk to you mean that I have "power over" you?

Did you need to "Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'?? to do it?? That should be the first clue as to the difference.

Saul goes to the witch - because he cannot reach the dead - nor can he conjure up the dead.

Seeks someone with a "familiar spirit" -- you know, a lying spirit that is able to provide the much needed deception.

If Saul could simply conjure up Samuel -- why go to a witch?

Why deliberately seek someone with a "Familiar Spirit".

Martin Luther claimed that such teaching about immortal souls in eternal torment etc was false doctrine brought in by those in error in the dark ages.

It it not the witch you are calling a liar, it is the Bible. The witch is not making any argument to be agreed with

The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.

The witch is selected precisely because she has the much needed familiar spirit - so necessary to such claims.

The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:4.

The Bible says that when a person dies "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4.

The Bible says that you cannot "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19-20.

The Bible says that in death - the person sleeps "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I do that I may wake HIM". John 11.

When Christ's awakens the sleeping saint - it is not a seance via familiar spirit - but it is resurrection.

Notice that even in Luke 16's parable the same point is made that the dead cannot go to the living and in any way warn or contact them apart from resurrection.

No modern translation of the Bible still uses the term "familiar spirit".

Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.

Ever read Young's Literal Translation??

1. Leviticus 20:27
   `And a man or woman -- when there is in them a familiar spirit, or who [are] wizards -- are certainly put to death; with stones they stone them; their blood [is] on them.'
2. 1 Samuel 28:7
   And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.'
3. 1 Samuel 28:8
   And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'
4. 2 Kings 21:6
   and he hath caused his son to pass through fire, and observed clouds, and used enchantment, and dealt with a familiar spirit and wizards; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah -- to provoke to anger.
5. 1 Chronicles 10:13
   And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, --
6. 2 Chronicles 33:6
   And he hath caused his sons to pass over through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and observed clouds and used enchantments and witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and a wizard; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.
7. Isaiah 29:4
   And thou hast been low, From the earth thou speakest, And from the dust makest thy saying low, And thy voice hath been from the earth, As one having a familiar spirit, And from the dust thy saying whisperest,

Notice that often when dealing with those who believe in such Genesis 3 doctrines as "thou shalt not surely die" one must explain that familiar spirits tell lies and those using them to deceive mankind should not be appealed to as a source of doctrine.

Exposing the darkness of witchcraft and familiar spirits just does not get any more blatant than this friends. Time to wake up. Satan's enchanted ground is not a place to camp out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[he-man]

In Christianity there is Satan - the Devil of Matt 4 and of Rev 12. He has angels - they were at war in heaven and were cast out.Even in the OT you have Satan appearing in councils of heaven in Job 1 and 2. God is real in Job 1 and 2, Satan is real, the earth is real, and Job was real. I suggest that your subject of "is the devil real" be it's own thread. It is a topic that deserves focused attention.
in Christ, Bob

Dear Bob you have been grossly misled:

Notwithstanding, God controls the world;
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
19 ¶ And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ Excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
24 ¶ The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

In addition, using the very same language we read:
Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus , and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus [/ b], and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

In addition, the PURPOSE for the destruction of Tyre:
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; when I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.

The theology of Christendom places the devil in juxtaposition with God.
It is the polytheism of paganism in its smallest form: and the philosophy of the ancients embodied in names and forms supplied by the Bible.
The doctrine of the devil has as intimate a bearing upon the truth of Christ as the doctrine of God.

Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those "men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

In the first place, there are certain general principles, which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle; death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (I Tim. 6:16).

Therefore, the angels which kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave), and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death)--(Jude 6; II Peter 2:2, 4), therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19).
An immortal rebel is impossibility.

With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). "In His hand is the life of every living thing" (Job12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death.
Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in the case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal.

If this is the Bible devil, why was it necessary that Jesus should die to compass his destruction? He took part of flesh and blood, that "THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14). Why through death? If the devil is a being separate from humankind, what had the immolation of flesh and blood on Calvary to do with the process of his destruction?

If he were the strong, personal, active power of evil contended for, it wanted strength, and not weakness, to put him down. It wanted "the nature of angels," and not "the seed of Abraham," to enter into a successful encounter with "the personal power of darkness." However, Jesus, to destroy him, was manifested in the flesh, and submitted to death. Victory crowned his efforts, and the devil was destroyed.
The doctrine of God's existence; of His creative power; of His relation to His universe, is not only implied in the appellations He appropriates to Himself, but expressly propounded.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
The narrative of creation exhibits the natural serpent, "more subtle than any BEAST OF THE FIELD which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3:1), as the tempter. The creature was endowed with the gift of speech (no doubt, especially with a view to the part it had to perform in putting our first parents to the test).

To suggest that the serpent was Satan in reptile form is again to go beyond the record, and enter a region where one guess or one assertion is as good as another. The idea is forbidden by the sentence, which condemns the serpent to eat dust all the days of its life. Paul evidently recognized nothing beyond the serpent in the transaction. "I fear," says he, "lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety," etc. (II Cor. 11:3).

Some people make a great difficulty about the serpent speaking; but surely, there is as much difficulty about a serpent speaking under satanic inspiration as in one speaking by faculty divinely conferred for a purpose. If a "dumb ass, speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness" of a Balaam----(II Pet. 2:16)--why not a serpent be enabled to utter its thoughts when it was necessary to try the faithfulness of Adam and Eve? How otherwise could they be put to trial?

It is commonly believed that the devil was once a powerful arch-angel, and that he was driven out of heaven on account of his pride; after which, he applied his angelic energies to oppose God in all His schemes and movements, and do as much evil as he could in the universe, being assisted in this by a host of angelic sympathizers, who were driven down to hell along with him.

The case of the fallen angels is largely relied upon:.--
"If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet. 2:4). Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them :--
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, and the Dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven; and the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!

The classes of people who refer to Rev 12 in support of a personal devil, also quote Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezek. 28:11-15; but these Scriptures have even less to do with the subject than Rev. 12. In both cases, if the reader will read the whole chapter he will find the personage addressed is an earthly potentate--in one case the King of Babylon, and in the other, the Prince of Tyre.

However, what about the calamities of tempest and disease that befell Job? Was it in the power of a mortal man to control these? The answer is these were God's doings, and not the adversary's. "Thou movedst ME against him, to destroy him without cause" (chapter 2:3). This is the language in which God describes Satan's transaction in the matter. It was God who inflicted the calamities.

This is Job's view of the case: Job 2:10 but he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? "Have pity upon me, O ye my friends," says he, "THE HAND OF GOD hath touched me" (chapter 19:21). In addition, the narrator, in concluding the book, says, "Then came there unto him all his brethren... and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM" (chapter 42:11).

The three other cases in which Satan is untranslated are the following :--
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
With regard to the first, the adversary seems to have been God; for we read in II Sam. 24:1 "The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and HE moved David against them to say, go, number Israel and Judah."

"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebukes thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem," etc. (Zech.3:1, 2).
As to the case of Joshua, the high priest, the transaction in which "Satan" appeared against him was so highly symbolical (as anyone may see by reading the first four chapters of Zechariah), that we cannot suppose Satan, the adversary, stood for an individual, but rather as the representative of the class of antagonists against whom Joshua had to contend.

Ezra 4:1 Now when THE ADVERSARIES Of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel,
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(I Cor. 15:56). [R Roberts]

 

[strangertoo]

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.

Many Christians suspect that is a lie and that God gives witches no such power over dead saints.

Apparently - some people actually agree with the witch.

In any case - be that as it may -

Turns out that God condemns the witches and their familiar spirits that engage in this deception.

Saul made inquiry of the "familiar spirit" according to the Bible - instead of inquiring of God.

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"


And the witch of Endore was sought out BECAUSE of her "familiar spirit" according to scripture. Surely scripture is not "lying"??!!

1. Leviticus 20:27
   A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
2. 1 Samuel 28:7
   Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
3. 1 Samuel 28:8
   And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
4. 1 Chronicles 10:13
   So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
5. 2 Chronicles 33:6
   And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
6. Isaiah 29:4
   And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Those who buy into the Genesis 3 story from Satan about humans not dying - will sometimes buy into the story told by witches - where they claim they have power to "conjure up" via their familiar spirits - anyone that you might wish among the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus has the keys of hell, not any witch , nor Satan ...

ALL are resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] , even witches , and all accept Jesus in the end, accept Love and are translated to spirit free of death [saved]

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[createdtoworship]

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.



Did you need to "Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'?? to do it?? That should be the first clue as to the difference.

Saul goes to the witch - because he cannot reach the dead - nor can he conjure up the dead.

Seeks someone with a "familiar spirit" -- you know, a lying spirit that is able to provide the much needed deception.

If Saul could simply conjure up Samuel -- why go to a witch?

Why deliberately seek someone with a "Familiar Spirit".

Martin Luther claimed that such teaching about immortal souls in eternal torment etc was false doctrine brought in by those in error in the dark ages.


The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.

The witch is selected precisely because she has the much needed familiar spirit - so necessary to such claims.

The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:4.

The Bible says that when a person dies "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4.

The Bible says that you cannot "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19-20.

The Bible says that in death - the person sleeps "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I do that I may wake HIM". John 11.

When Christ's awakens the sleeping saint - it is not a seance via familiar spirit - but it is resurrection.

Notice that even in Luke 16's parable the same point is made that the dead cannot go to the living and in any way warn or contact them apart from resurrection.

Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.

Ever read Young's Literal Translation??

1. Leviticus 20:27
   `And a man or woman -- when there is in them a familiar spirit, or who [are] wizards -- are certainly put to death; with stones they stone them; their blood [is] on them.'
2. 1 Samuel 28:7
   And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.'
3. 1 Samuel 28:8
   And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'
4. 2 Kings 21:6
   and he hath caused his son to pass through fire, and observed clouds, and used enchantment, and dealt with a familiar spirit and wizards; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah -- to provoke to anger.
5. 1 Chronicles 10:13
   And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, --
6. 2 Chronicles 33:6
   And he hath caused his sons to pass over through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and observed clouds and used enchantments and witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and a wizard; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.
7. Isaiah 29:4
   And thou hast been low, From the earth thou speakest, And from the dust makest thy saying low, And thy voice hath been from the earth, As one having a familiar spirit, And from the dust thy saying whisperest,

Notice that often when dealing with those who believe in such Genesis 3 doctrines as "thou shalt not surely die" one must explain that familiar spirits tell lies and those using them to deceive mankind should not be appealed to as a source of doctrine.

Exposing the darkness of witchcraft and familiar spirits just does not get any more blatant than this friends. Time to wake up. Satan's enchanted ground is not a place to camp out.

in Christ,

Bob

you seem to be misled on your sources regarding luther, He was questioning the logic of the soul being immortal, but never the biblical proof of it.

Luthers works...

That he was righteous … and through that faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
By means of a remarkable example God proves that He cares for those who are oppressed, since after the death of Abel He Himself speaks for him. Even though in this way He points out somewhat obscurely that the soul is immortal and that there is eternal life,


Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther's Works, Vol. 29 : Lectures on Titus, Philemon, and Hebrews. Saint Louis : Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1968 (Luther's Works 29), S. 29:233

 

[LutheranMafia]

The witch claimed to have power over the dead saints - to conjure up whomever you might request.

To "have power over" someone you must be able to force them to do something against their will. Nowhere does the Bible use such terminology to describe mediums.

Did you need to "Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'?? to do it?? That should be the first clue as to the difference.

Seeks someone with a "familiar spirit" -- you know, a lying spirit that is able to provide the much needed deception.

Familiar spirits are a recent belief that did not exist before the Middle Ages and was a belief peculiar to Britian and France.

If Saul could simply conjure up Samuel -- why go to a witch?

He wasn't a medium.

Martin Luther claimed that such teaching about immortal souls in eternal torment etc was false doctrine brought in by those in error in the dark ages.

Luther only espoused belief in soul sleep early on. He later renounced it, claiming, “The soul does not sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, and has converse with them." -Luther's "Commentary on Genesis"
Gently Broken: Separate But Not Equal

The witch claims to be able to conjure up any dead saint you wish to speak to.

Then why did she throw herself to the ground in fear when a saint came up?

The witch is selected precisely because she has the much needed familiar spirit - so necessary to such claims.

I've never once heard of any contemporary medium making use of any kind of intermediary spirit. I've heard a lot of people talk about spirit guides, but I have never seen anyone besides you connect spirit guides with mediumship.

The Bible says that when a person dies "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4.

The Amplified Bible does the best job of capturing all the symantic subtleties:

"When his breath leaves him, he returns to his earth; in that very day his [previous] thoughts, plans, and purposes perish."

The Bible says that you cannot "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19-20.

"Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

It does not say cannot, it says that one should not consult the dead. Big difference.

The Bible says that in death - the person sleeps "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I do that I may wake HIM". John 11.

Sleep is an altered state of consciousness, not the cessation of consciousness.

When Christ's awakens the sleeping saint - it is not a seance via familiar spirit - but it is resurrection.

Thank you, master of the obvious.

Notice that even in Luke 16's parable the same point is made that the dead cannot go to the living and in any way warn or contact them apart from resurrection.

"neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead."
No, it says that the living will not listen to the dead about salvation, EVEN IF they resurrected. But people don't go to mediums to ask about salvation, so this verse in no way precludes mediums from being real.

Sadly for your argument that changes nothing. And even worse - it is not even true.

Ever read Young's Literal Translation??

How is the YLT a modern translation? Robert Young wrote it in 1862.

Notice that often when dealing with those who believe in such Genesis 3 doctrines as "thou shalt not surely die" one must explain that familiar spirits tell lies and those using them to deceive mankind should not be appealed to as a source of doctrine.

No one here is using mediums as a source of doctrine.

Exposing the darkness of witchcraft and familiar spirits just does not get any more blatant than this friends. Time to wake up. Satan's enchanted ground is not a place to camp out.

Being a medium is spiritually extremely unhealthy, I have nothing to wake up from. You act as though you are arguing with people who condone mediumship. The fact that it has nothing to do with "familiar spirits" which was a brief spasm of superstition limited to Medieval Britian and France, is in no way a defense of mediums.

You are shadow boxing with yourself you are so wrapped up in your own ideas. You keep acting as though mediums are being defended by someone. That is not happening, but you think it is because you are not genuninely listening to anyone but yourself.

 

[Phaedron]

Hell is the bad side of Sheoul, "The BLACKNESS of HELL that is reserved for wandering stars." But it's not eternal and the unforgiving servants are there until they have paid back every penny. However the holy angels tormenting those who receive the mark of the beast IS, and the Lake of Fire is.

Yahshua said in Mark 10:29-30 “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."

Note that Mark was the oldest gospel and later versions of this saying were changed to omit the elaboration of all the things we get hundreds of in this age. I really don't see how anyone reads this and fails to understand, to me it is crystal clear.

Luke 20:27-38 The Sadducees ask about the woman who married seven brothers. Yahshua replied “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Thomas 84 "When you see your reflection you rejoice, but when you see your images which neither die nor come into being how much you will have to bear." This is a perfect description of the burdens of past lives.

There are no scriptures which support the false doctrines of "dying and going to heaven" or "remaining in the grave until judgment day." The raising up or resurrection from the dead is spiritual, whereas Mark 10 cannot be disputed in any way shape or form.

And there many many more. The understanding of multiple lifetimes was believed throughout Judaism and is still believed to this day. It didn't suddenly become untrue. There were no "athiests" in the ancient world. Those who are so critical of God calling him a murderer and such fail to understand it is our fault. All souls who were born to the cannanites for example, deserved what they got because of their actions in past lives. This is one of the great keys that really unlocks the nature of Gods judgments and why we go through the things that we do.