Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[LutheranMafia]

Did rahab lie for israels armies? And secondly was she STILL in Christs' lineage and honored as such?

There are probably two different Rahabs. The Rahab of Matthew 1:5 married Salmon of the tribe of Judah, was the mother of Boaz and ancestress to King David, all the kings of Judah, and Jesus. The Talmud states that Rahab of Jericho married Joshua Bin Nun, a descendant of Joseph and was ancestress to Huldah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The text of 1Sam 28 states explicitly that God chose not to allow His prophets to speak to Saul

It says not such thing.

Here is what the Bible ACTUALLY says:

He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.
1 Samuel 28:6
​

- so there is no way to then argue "except through witches given the power over dead saints".

You invent nonexistent verses in the Bible to suite your argument.

 

[createdtoworship]

Rahab had the ability to lie - in real life - and could do so without God giving her supernatural ability.

The witch had no power at all to conjure up dead saints - all she could do was to be duped by her own familiar spirit who would also dupe the unwitting guests into believing she had that power.

The text itself sets the context saying that those who work with familiar spirits to call up the dead were an abomination to God and were under death sentence AND the text tells us that God strictly forbade any of HIS prophets to talk to Saul which is why Saul had to resort "to a witch" as if Satan could "Get around God".



God did not give Satan any power in Job 1 and 2 that he did not already have - and God did not grant any super powers to the witch -- nor did God grant any super powers to Rahab so she could lie.

All them used their existing abilities to do what they did. In the case of the witch of Endore - she used a familiar spirit's ability to "mutter and peep" as the bible says.




No it is not. God is not going around granting anyone the power to communicate with the dead - because the dead know not anything. neither does God grant the wooden idols of the pagans - super powers.

God is not in the business of making Satan's realm of deception "appear to work".

In Job 1 Satan does NOT complain that God "failed to give Satan powers" but rather that God has set a hedge a wall about Job and Satan with all of his supernatural power cannot get passed it.

Very different from "please grant me some super powers so I can do damage".

in Christ,

Bob

I have to agree, I don't believe in necromancy in general, but......this witch called up samuel and wasn't shocked when it happened. She was expecting such powers.

 

[createdtoworship]

There are probably two different Rahabs. The Rahab of Matthew 1:5 married Salmon of the tribe of Judah, was the mother of Boaz and ancestress to King David, all the kings of Judah, and Jesus. The Talmud states that Rahab of Jericho married Joshua Bin Nun, a descendant of Joseph and was ancestress to Huldah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

I don't believe the talmud in this regard, a few places she is placed in the lineage according to the Bible...

"How was Rahab rewarded for exercising faith? Her preservation during Jericho?s destruction surely was a blessing from God. Later, she married Salmon (Salma), the son of the wilderness chieftain Nahshon of the tribe of Judah. As parents of the godly Boaz, Salmon and Rahab formed a link in the line of descent that led to King David of Israel. (1 Chronicles 2:3-15; Ruth 4:20-22)

More significantly, the former prostitute Rahab is one of only four women named in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus Christ. (Matthew 1:5,6) "

 

[createdtoworship]

That an unsaved person can choose to use their own real abilities in a way that serves God is not in question.

That God is in inclined to supernaturally enable witches and satanists to make it appear that their deceptive false claims are legit - is not even remotely a teaching of scripture.

The text of 1Sam 28 states explicitly that God chose not to allow His prophets to speak to Saul - so there is no way to then argue "except through witches given the power over dead saints".

in Christ,

Bob

God is not approving of necromancy just because He allowed it to happen once....


from geislers book

Presuming that the Bible Approves of All it Records.
It is a mistake to assume that everything contained in the Bible is commended by the Bible. The whole Bible is true (John 17:17), but it records some lies, for example, Satan’s (Gen. 3:4; cf. John 8:44) and Rahab’s (Josh. 2:4). Inspiration encompasses the Bible fully and completely in the sense that it records accurately and truthfully even the lies and errors of sinful beings. The truth of Scripture is found in what the Bible reveals, not in everything it records. Unless this distinction is held, it may be incorrectly concluded that the Bible teaches immorality because it narrates David’s sin (2 Sam. 11:4), that it promotes polygamy because it records Solomon’s (1 Kings 11:3), or that it affirms atheism because it quotes the fool as saying “there is no God” (Ps. 14:1).

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 22

 

[BobRyan]

God has "allowed necromancy" zillions of times - just as murder has been "allowed". But God is not engaging in it - nor is he working with witches to make sure their false claims will come true.

This may seem like an odd idea - but it is true.

This is not a simple case of "God approves of all that is recorded" rather according to you this is a case of God coming to the aid of the witch and not simply "allowing something" but rather God working to cause the very thing the witch claims to be able to do.

Vastly different from "Allowing the witch to do what witches do".

When Rahab lies - she needs no supernatural ability from God to do so.

when Satan lies he has no need to pray to God so that he will be enabled to lie.

The witch in 1Sam 28 does not pray to God to give her the power to raise up dead saints and "bring up for Saul" whomever he wishes because her familiar spirit has already duped her into thinking she has that "power". God is not in the business if supernatural support and aid to witches.

God did not act the part of Satan in 1Sam 28 and make the witch's claims appear to come true - as much as this may surprise some people.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The text of 1Sam 28 states explicitly that God chose not to allow His prophets to speak to Saul​

It says not such thing.

Here is what the Bible ACTUALLY says:

He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.
1 Samuel 28:6

​

You appear to be making my point.

Where do you make your point?

Saul is aware of the problem as he says "God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”

Saul resorts to the witch's familiar spirit because God will not answer him by prophets or dreams.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I have to agree, I don't believe in necromancy in general, but......this witch called up samuel and wasn't shocked when it happened. She was expecting such powers.

I agree that she expected to have that power - because this is the job of her familiar spirit -- to lie to her and make her believe she has that power.

But neither the demons nor Satan have the power to bring up the dead.

In fact in Matt 4 they do not even have the power to create life. Satan challenges Christ to turn stone into bread if in fact He is Gos the Son. God alone can create life.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

I agree that she expected to have that power - because this is the job of her familiar spirit -- to lie to her and make her believe she has that power.

But neither the demons nor Satan have the power to bring up the dead.

In fact in Matt 4 they do not even have the power to create life. Satan challenges Christ to turn stone into bread if in fact He is Gos the Son. God alone can create life.

in Christ,

Bob

J Vernon McGee states many view that satan raised the beast from the dead.

"This verse, together with chapter 17, verse 8, has led many to the view that Satan actually raises the Beast from the dead. “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is” (Rev. 17:8)."


McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:999

 

[createdtoworship]

God has "allowed necromancy" zillions of times - just as murder has been "allowed". But God is not engaging in it - nor is he working with witches to make sure their false claims will come true.

This may seem like an odd idea - but it is true.

This is not a simple case of "God approves of all that is recorded" rather according to you this is a case of God coming to the aid of the witch and not simply "allowing something" but rather God working to cause the very thing the witch claims to be able to do.

Vastly different from "Allowing the witch to do what witches do".

When Rahab lies - she needs no supernatural ability from God to do so.

when Satan lies he has no need to pray to God so that he will be enabled to lie.

The witch in 1Sam 28 does not pray to God to give her the power to raise up dead saints and "bring up for Saul" whomever he wishes because her familiar spirit has already duped her into thinking she has that "power". God is not in the business if supernatural support and aid to witches.

God did not act the part of Satan in 1Sam 28 and make the witch's claims appear to come true - as much as this may surprise some people.

in Christ,

Bob

it's not a matter of God allowing supernatural ability it's a matter of allowance. God allowed satan the ability to murder Jobs family. Without that allowance from God He would not have been able to do that.

"Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."



A similar passage is Luke 22:31-32: "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." Clearly in this case Satan had to ask permission to tempt Peter.

 

[createdtoworship]

By this time Samuel had already anointed David as king - and by going to the witch Saul had fully cut himself off from God as even 1Chronicles 10 points out. Satan knew that. His servant - his familiar spirit and the witch were working together with what Satan already knew.

By contrast the text says that when it came to GOD's OWN prophets -- (so not witches and demons) -- God forbade THEM to minister to Saul, or to speak to Him at all. This is what the text says itself.


One of the dangers to this whole idea of inventing a Bible doctrine about "an immortal soul of man" (a statement never found in all of scripture) is that it leads to appeals to prayers to the dead or conjuring up the dead by witches as IF this was something God was working to cause to happen so as to honor and fulfill the false claims of the witches.

That is the clue for the bible student that you are wayyyy down the wrong road once you have to make those kinds of arguments.

By contrast God said "The living know that they will die -- but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4 -- no wonder then both Christ and the Sadducees are in agreement on the point "god is NOT the God of the dead" Matt 22.


in Christ,

Bob

Yes samuel had anointed the king already, but that does not make Him a king yet, the old King must know of the anointing and know that He is being replaced. That was what this prophecy was about. Notice saul did not relinquish His throne just yet either. The prophecy was yet to be fulfilled. And by the mouth of a prophet conjured up from the dead through the use of necromancy. Believe it or not.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You appear to be making my point.

Where do you make your point?

Saul is aware of the problem as he says "God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”

Saul resorts to the witch's familiar spirit because God will not answer him by prophets or dreams.

I thought that you were implying that God directly forbid Samuel to speak to Saul thus the spirit speaking to the witch and Saul could not have been the real Samuel.

Your idea that when the Bible says, "Samuel said" that the Bible is in fact lying and it was not truly Samuel, shows no respect for the Bible. You man handle the Bible to say whatever you want.

 

[BobRyan]

By this time Samuel had already anointed David as king - and by going to the witch Saul had fully cut himself off from God as even 1Chronicles 10 points out. Satan knew that. His servant - his familiar spirit and the witch were working together with what Satan already knew.

By contrast the text says that when it came to GOD's OWN prophets -- (so not witches and demons) -- God forbade THEM to minister to Saul, or to speak to Him at all. This is what the text says itself.


One of the dangers to this whole idea of inventing a Bible doctrine about "an immortal soul of man" (a statement never found in all of scripture) is that it leads to appeals to prayers to the dead or conjuring up the dead by witches as IF this was something God was working to cause to happen so as to honor and fulfill the false claims of the witches.

That is the clue for the bible student that you are wayyyy down the wrong road once you have to make those kinds of arguments.

By contrast God said "The living know that they will die -- but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4 -- no wonder then both Christ and the Sadducees are in agreement on the point "god is NOT the God of the dead" Matt 22.

Yes samuel had anointed the king already, but that does not make Him a king yet, the old King must know of the anointing and know that He is being replaced. That was what this prophecy was about.

1Chronicles 10:13 says that God became Saul's enemy "because" he went to a MEDIUM (a witch - not Samuel) to "inquire of IT".

The familiar spirit of that witch knew that Saul was crossing a line - and a dead Saul - would mean turn over of the kingdom to the one who was already anointed to be the next King.

Saul never "relinquished" anything - he died as the pawn of the familiar spirit he spoke with in 1Samuel 28 -- "conjured up" by the witch just as the Chapter says.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I thought that you were implying that God directly forbid Samuel to speak to Saul thus the spirit speaking to the witch and Saul could not have been the real Samuel.

"The Bible says" --

[FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]So the Philistines gathered together and came and camped in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together and they camped in Gilboa. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6When Saul [/FONT][FONT=&quot]inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15Then Samuel said to Saul, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God [/FONT][FONT=&quot]has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], that you may make known to me what I should do." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16Samuel said, "Why then do [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]


IT is left as a simple "exercise for the reader" to see that God is the one commanding the Prophets to do as they do.

Those who would imagine some other system - are free to do so.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

By this time Samuel had already anointed David as king - and by going to the witch Saul had fully cut himself off from God as even 1Chronicles 10 points out. Satan knew that. His servant - his familiar spirit and the witch were working together with what Satan already knew.

By contrast the text says that when it came to GOD's OWN prophets -- (so not witches and demons) -- God forbade THEM to minister to Saul, or to speak to Him at all. This is what the text says itself.


One of the dangers to this whole idea of inventing a Bible doctrine about "an immortal soul of man" (a statement never found in all of scripture) is that it leads to appeals to prayers to the dead or conjuring up the dead by witches as IF this was something God was working to cause to happen so as to honor and fulfill the false claims of the witches.

That is the clue for the bible student that you are wayyyy down the wrong road once you have to make those kinds of arguments.

By contrast God said "The living know that they will die -- but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 "in that very day their thoughts perish" Ps 146:4 -- no wonder then both Christ and the Sadducees are in agreement on the point "god is NOT the God of the dead" Matt 22.



1Chronicles 10:13 says that God became Saul's enemy "because" he went to a MEDIUM (a witch - not Samuel) to "inquire of IT".

The familiar spirit of that witch knew that Saul was crossing a line - and a dead Saul - would mean turn over of the kingdom to the one who was already anointed to be the next King.

Saul never "relinquished" anything - he died as the pawn of the familiar spirit he spoke with in 1Samuel 28 -- "conjured up" by the witch just as the Chapter says.

in Christ,

Bob

1 chronicles doesn't say He was an enemy.

 

[he-man]

1 chronicles doesn't say He was an enemy.

1 Chr 21:1 "the adversary" as shown by 2Sam 24:1

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from [so called]Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

You need to go to the next level of learning. Consider what Paul said and what he was speaking of was not the literal superstitious Satan but
"It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh; but its nature must remain a matter of conjecture." [JFB]

2 Cor 12:7
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger Satan/adversary, to smack me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[BobRyan]

1Chronicles 10

13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

God did not consider this to be "inquiring of the Lord" -- how many times in the Bible is it not considered "inquiring of the Lord" - to go to a living prophet and seek counsel?

No wonder the familiar spirit of the witch pretending to be Samuel says in 1Samuel 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?”


the "man has an immortal soul" idea is not getting as much help from the witch or the witch's familiar spirit as they might have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

1Chronicles 10

13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

God did not consider this to be "inquiring of the Lord" -- how many times in the Bible is it not considered "inquiring of the Lord" - to go to a living prophet and seek counsel?

No wonder the familiar spirit of the witch pretending to be Samuel says in 1Samuel 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?”


the "man has an immortal soul" idea is not getting as much help from the witch or the witch's familiar spirit as they might have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

you would have us believe that the prophet samuel delivered a false prophecy, or else that Satan delivered a legitimate prophecy. Your problem is that you take some scripture over other scripture. All scripture is treated equal and of equal weight. Not just the ones that suit your fancy.

 

[BobRyan]

I said --No wonder the familiar spirit of the witch pretending to be Samuel says in 1Samuel 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?”

You keep on insisting that the witch does not work via a familiar spirit - but rather via God or via Samuel.

That is your choice - not mine.

The fact that the demons already knew that Samuel anointed David as the next king - is no news for them or us.

The fact that the demons knew that Saul was "going to a medium to inquire of IT -- instead of inquiring of the LORD" is no news to the demons or to those who read the text of scripture.

The fact that God turned Saul over to destruction for doing such a thing - is written clearly in 1Chron 10:13-14. Pretty hard to be confused there.

The fact that the witches work through the agency of familiar spirits is well documented in the Bible. No news there for demons or the readers of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

I said --No wonder the familiar spirit of the witch pretending to be Samuel says in 1Samuel 28:16 Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?”

You keep on insisting that the witch does not work via a familiar spirit - but rather via God or via Samuel.

That is your choice - not mine.

The fact that the demons already knew that Samuel anointed David as the next king - is no news for them or us.

The fact that the demons knew that Saul was "going to a medium to inquire of IT -- instead of inquiring of the LORD" is no news to the demons or to those who read the text of scripture.

The fact that God turned Saul over to destruction for doing such a thing - is written clearly in 1Chron 10:13-14. Pretty hard to be confused there.

The fact that the witches work through the agency of familiar spirits is well documented in the Bible. No news there for demons or the readers of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

so why was samuel conjured up at all? If it was merely demonic and God was not involved what so ever? Does Satan have power over death?