Atheism (2)

[createdtoworship]

Centuries, please.

And yes, I'm aware he did. That said, who says it was a prophecy? It's not a hard thing to do to get a donkey and ride around, especially if you have a prophetic text to inspire you and put ideas in your head. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And again, with a lot of Matthew's prophecies, it's debatable how much was seen by the Jews as prophecy and how much is retconning.

Or maybe it was a coincidence. Either way, it's not that spectacular a thing at all.

yeah, a little over 483 years I presume, because that was the prophecy. But I was confusing that one with some that are 1500 years.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yea, Dave... Just like God was the one who's responsible for the plagues that befell Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
"But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."

I should have said, it's God's will working together with our will.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Coming implies a beginning.

Yes, and it implies a change in some state of affairs. There must be an absolute nothingness (not even a seemingly "empty" spacetime) prior in time to something in order for that something to be to said to "come from nothing".

But there's the thing. If time/change has a start, it doesn't have to start with absolute nothingness. It may start with something. Something very uncomplex, no doubt, but still something. As I had explained in the first paragraph, this something would not come from nothing, since it would be the start of everything.

I don't know what the original "cosmic egg" might have been -- flat spacetime, primal chaos, a singularity, whatever -- but I don't have any really good reason to think that it was an absolute nothingness, because I do agree that "out of nothing, nothing comes".

Two of God's nonmoral attributes are: His aseity which simply means: not caused by another, and His necessity. Aseity and necessity are kindred attributes. Aseity has to do with as I mentioned earlier His existence, and necessity has to do with the impossibility of His nonexistence.

Great. And I see physical reality as having those properties. This is more of a philosophical conclusion than a scientific conclusion, and not something that I have proven, but rather what makes the most sense to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

No. It is irrational.

I don´t seem to understand why it´s rational when you declare an entity to be eternal, but not when someone else does.

 

[Dave Ellis]

palm Sunday, Jesus rode on a donkey. It was prophesied what day that would happen. Look it up. The math is there.

start in chapter 9

Daniel The Key To Prophetic Revelation

Dude, there's no proof that Jesus even existed, much less fulfilled the Palm Sunday prophecy.

How do you know the book is accurate? How can you demonstrate that the prophecy was fulfilled? Just because some anonymous guy wrote decades or centuries after the fact that Jesus did it, is not compelling.

 

[Dave Ellis]

daniel was written thousands of years before Jesus, hello?

Ok, I hereby make a prophecy that someone in the next few thousand years will find a donkey, and go for a ride on it.

Or, considering that Donkeys were the preferred mode of transportation in those days, I will upgrade it to a more modern day prophecy:

I hereby prophecise that the messiah will ride from the Mount of Olives into Jerusalem in a car, at some random point between now and the end of time.

Whoever made the original prophecy, was really going out there on a limb.

Even so, you still can't demonstrate that Jesus existed, or that he rode a donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Until you do that, you can't assert that the prophecy was fulfilled.

 

[Dave Ellis]

God is self existent and self defining, because He is a universal agent, and has universal agency.

Can you demonstrate that? You're merely making an assertion, how do you know what you're speaking of?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Nehemiah 2:12
Then I arose in the night, I and a few men with me. And I told no one what my God had put into my heart to do for Jerusalem. There was no animal with me but the one on which I rode.

If God puts something in your heart, it's not your actions but Gods.

Captain Kirk 1:24 Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on


This demonstrates that sometimes a feeling is all we have, and it's just a feeling. God is not required.

 

[Dave Ellis]

yeah, a little over 483 years I presume, because that was the prophecy. But I was confusing that one with some that are 1500 years.

None of the old testament texts (including the creation myth) go back 1500 years BC.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I should have said, it's God's will working together with our will.

Then it's not free will

 

[createdtoworship]

Then it's not free will

it's both

 

[createdtoworship]

None of the old testament texts (including the creation myth) go back 1500 years BC.

Eusebius (CE 263-399), placed Job "two ages before Moses" or 2,000-1,500 BCE

wikipedia

 

[createdtoworship]

Captain Kirk 1:24 Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on


This demonstrates that sometimes a feeling is all we have, and it's just a feeling. God is not required.

 

[createdtoworship]

Can you demonstrate that? You're merely making an assertion, how do you know what you're speaking of?

unless you know what caused the singularity that caused the big bang, all we have is my option which is God did it. There are no other hypothesis.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ok, I hereby make a prophecy that someone in the next few thousand years will find a donkey, and go for a ride on it.

Or, considering that Donkeys were the preferred mode of transportation in those days, I will upgrade it to a more modern day prophecy:

I hereby prophecise that the messiah will ride from the Mount of Olives into Jerusalem in a car, at some random point between now and the end of time.

Whoever made the original prophecy, was really going out there on a limb.

Even so, you still can't demonstrate that Jesus existed, or that he rode a donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Until you do that, you can't assert that the prophecy was fulfilled.

pliny the younger and josephus both testify to Christ. That he was real. And the Biblical texts state what day He rode in to Jerusalem. So I am unsure what you are talking about.

They prophesied the exact day 483 years ahead of time, from the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the very same day Christ came (donkeys are not in the prophecy- I don't think).

 

[createdtoworship]

Dude, there's no proof that Jesus even existed, much less fulfilled the Palm Sunday prophecy.

How do you know the book is accurate? How can you demonstrate that the prophecy was fulfilled? Just because some anonymous guy wrote decades or centuries after the fact that Jesus did it, is not compelling.

actually four different accounts of men writing anonymously would have to have happened:

Palm Sunday can be found in Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-44; and John 12:12-19.

 

[Gadarene]

actually four different accounts of men writing anonymously would have to have happened:

Palm Sunday can be found in Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-44; and John 12:12-19.

Four accounts written one after the other, which again suffers from the same problem as the Daniel angle. If you know what already happened, retrofitting events to an alleged 'prophecy' is easy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

actually four different accounts of men writing anonymously would have to have happened:

Palm Sunday can be found in Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-44; and John 12:12-19.

If the four of them sat down at the exact same point in time, without talking to each other and all four wrote an account of Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, that would serve as strong evidence for one thing:

That Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

But they didn't even do that... the gospels were written over a 30 year span, and it's been proven the later gospels were based off of the earlier ones... sometimes to the point of plagiarizing word for word sentences and paragraphs. Given that fact, the justification that it appears in all four gospels is not all that compelling either.

Besides that, just because he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey doesn't mean anything in regards to his divinity, or prophecy. Thousands of others also rode from the Mount of Olives to Jerusalem on a Donkey. It's not an uncommon occurrence, or anything all that special. Predicting it would happen is like predicting someone's going to drive from New Jersey to New York in a car.

 

[KCfromNC]

All you have to do is come up with a rational explanation of how something can come from nothing and you are home free.

I don't need to pretend I have an answer to realize that the theist explanation isn't one. It's two separate questions. I can say that I honestly don't know and at the same time say that making up a god to putty over the gaps in our knowledge is a pointless exercise. There's no contradiction there.

 

[KCfromNC]

there is a book

called "science speaks" by peter stoner I believe that has the statistics of 30 prophecies coming true, then He does 300 I think.

He says it is as likely as filling texas 2 feet deep in silver dollars and picking one.

If I remember accurately

I was looking for a probability, not a bibliography. If you don't know the answer, it's OK to just say so.