What do you all think of putting heretics to death?

[Charlemagne4]

I am interested in this question, especially as it relates to Christians forcibly taking control of higher education. Here is what Thomas Aquinas thought:


I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Galatians 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."



Here is what the apostle Paul thought:


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!Gal 1:8

 

[Emmy]

Dear Charlemagne4. I love God`s Way of given us all a chance until the very end, selfless Love/Agape is a very strong weapon to make even a most self-opinionated heretic think: Love is a Christians strongest weapon. It is no empty advice which Jesus gave the Lawyer in St.Matthews: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Jesus knows what Love can do, when it is freely given and no conditions tagged on. Sincere Love will overcome all obstacles.
Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love also. Then we thank God, and share all with our neighbour, ( all we know and all we meet, friends and no friends) God will see our efforts, and God will approve and bless us. God will also know: that we love God: Why? We are following His Commandments to love and care. What greater reason, or even weapon, can any heretic find to outshine Love, freely offered and given? I say this with love, Charlemagne. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[dayhiker]

I don't find one command by Jesus or the disciples that we are to kill anyone. Jesus said we were to love our enemies. Jesus didn't come to kill people but to save them.

Nor do we find the Apostles or the early church killing people. Even when Constantine proclaimed Christianity the religion of the Roman empire do we find the church killing people. But It was sad that at this point in church history that the church didn't speak out against the Roman authorities that did start to kill people not because they were killing other people, but just because they didn't see eye to eye on doctrines.

By the Middle Ages the church is trying people and putting them to death, so that once the reformation starts we have churches fighting each other and killing each other even if thru governments.

America was founded to counter those evils of religious wars. So we have the separation of church and start. Now I can promote loving people the way Jesus did.
Ya ... I'll not be killing anyone.

 

[Armistead14]

The church was very political during that time. Also, you must remember the general populance had to follow whatever doctrines the church set, simply, they had to believe what the King or Pope believed, anything outside of that was at their own peril.

In many societies open thinking and philosophy was allowed, the political Roman Catholic church redefined this, only they could decide rules or doctrines, the political church wanted to control the populance, so they created many codes and violations, if you didn't fall in line, you could easily be accused of heresay.

There was much abuse by the political church, Popes and Priest, often people were accused for heresay by others for greedy reasons, to take power, property, or simply get rid of someone you didn't like. Heck, it was even worse within the church itself, priest often accusing other priest to gain position and wealth. Again, in those days you couldn't choose your religion or even within a religion form your own beliefs, you had to believe what the church taught.

When it came to death and torture by the church, it was based on controlling political doctrine, redefining and mistranslating scripture into latin to give the political church total control of the populance. The early church never embraced, preached or taught killing or torturing others for sin, only about 400AD did the church embrace such. The politics of Rome hijacked christianity.

They're several verses that state it's better to die, pluck out your eyes, cut off your hand, etc...than live in certain sin, but these are for comparison to explain the seriousness of sin, not that we should pluck our eyes out everytime we visually sin. However, the political church did just those things, cut off limbs, plucked eyes, roll your intestines out, burn you, etc.. When the political church embraced a pagan torturous hell where God tortures, they figured if God could do it, why couldn't they do it in his name.

If you want to go by the past writings of early political church fathers that still embraced many pagan themes, yes, you'll find a host of let's torture and kill any deemed heretics. Worse, is when new beliefs were formed or Kings changed their mind, such as when the Anglican church split from Rome, followed later by a Protestent split. Imagine living in an area where you were forced to believe one thing, then a King or Pope changes doctrine and you must change again....a sad period when innocent blood flowed the streets, all in God's name of course.

It was only when more secular law took power did this nonsense end. It's a shame it took secular law to put the church in line with scripture.

Churches certainly have the right to refuse people based on their beliefs and people have the right to find a church that lines up with their beliefs, no one has the right to murder or torture another person based on his honest beliefs, as long as they don't harm others and follow humane law.

 

[Armistead14]

I don't find one command by Jesus or the disciples that we are to kill anyone. Jesus said we were to love our enemies. Jesus didn't come to kill people but to save them.

Nor do we find the Apostles or the early church killing people. Even when Constantine proclaimed Christianity the religion of the Roman empire do we find the church killing people. But It was sad that at this point in church history that the church didn't speak out against the Roman authorities that did start to kill people not because they were killing other people, but just because they didn't see eye to eye on doctrines.

By the Middle Ages the church is trying people and putting them to death, so that once the reformation starts we have churches fighting each other and killing each other even if thru governments.

America was founded to counter those evils of religious wars. So we have the separation of church and start. Now I can promote loving people the way Jesus did.
Ya ... I'll not be killing anyone.

Yep, and stange enough Constantine, a former pagan, still embraced many pagan themes until his death. It was his mix of paganism with Christianity that started much evil.

 

[Publius]

I am interested in this question, especially as it relates to Christians forcibly taking control of higher education. Here is what Thomas Aquinas thought:


I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Galatians 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."



Here is what the apostle Paul thought:


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!Gal 1:8

Well, there's no Biblical prohibition against it, but it's also not commanded. In general, the Biblical model is to name and refute heretics.

 

[sniperelite7]

"Love one another" is code for the biblical prohibition on putting people to death because they do not think like you.

 

[Albion]

May I be the one who gets to decide who is a heretic?

 

[Life2Christ]

Thou shall not kill. Duh. What don't people understand.

 

[Armistead14]

May I be the one who gets to decide who is a heretic?

You are a heretic for wanting to decide who is a heretic, but you can accuse away if you need to get rid of someone you don't like and bring them up on heresay charges, but only the powers that be can decide and punish heretics, you know, priest, popes, pastors, etc....

With all the gossip in churches, could you imagine what would take place....we would have heads rolling down the aisles every Sunday. Be careful not to slip in the blood or stain your $500 shoes, wait, $500 shoes, that could be seen as heresay.

Certainly I can see many fundy churches loving to bring back church imposed death, I've heard many pastors in my life suggest killing gays, etc..but if it turned inward, hey, they may just go after each other as in days of yore.......might solve some issues.

 

[Publius]

"Love one another" is code for the biblical prohibition on putting people to death because they do not think like you.

Actually, Biblically and historically, death for heretics has been considered not only an act of justice and an act in defense of doctrine, but has been considered an act of love because it prevents the person from further incuring the wrath of God because of his heresy.

"Love one another" never excuses us from the other commands in scripture.

Like I said, while the Bible doesn't command the death penalty for heretics, it does allow for the death penalty for heretics.

Thou shall not kill. Duh. What don't people understand.

"Thou shall not kill", more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder" does not apply to capital punishment.

 

[dayhiker]

And what scripture do you use to say we re to kill people?

Actually, Biblically and historically, death for heretics has been considered not only an act of justice and an act in defense of doctrine, but has been considered an act of love because it prevents the person from further incuring the wrath of God because of his heresy.

"Love one another" never excuses us from the other commands in scripture.

Like I said, while the Bible doesn't command the death penalty for heretics, it does allow for the death penalty for heretics.



"Thou shall not kill", more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder" does not apply to capital punishment.

 

[Publius]

And what scripture do you use to say we re to kill people?

I guess you didn't read my post. You know, the one where I said, "the Bible doesn't command the death penalty for heretics".

 

[Theofane]

"Love one another" is code for the biblical prohibition on putting people to death because they do not think like you.

It isn't code for anything. It means exactly what you think, and nothing else.

 

[Lion King]

Actually, Biblically and historically, death for heretics has been considered not only an act of justice and an act in defense of doctrine, but has been considered an act of love because it prevents the person from further incuring the wrath of God because of his heresy.

"Love one another" never excuses us from the other commands in scripture.

Like I said, while the Bible doesn't command the death penalty for heretics, it does allow for the death penalty for heretics.


"Thou shall not kill", more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder" does not apply to capital punishment.

As it is written, so shall it be:

“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." John 16:1-3


Nowhere in the Scriptures, does it ALLOW for the deaths of "heretics" at the hands of Christians. Anyone who says they are killing in the name of God is committing blasphemy against God.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? Matthew 5:43-46

 

[Charlemagne4]

I personally have had God judge me for years because of errors in my theology as a new believer. This was transmitted to me through a higher education system that has no place for the concept of heresy. It angers me that our society does not take seriously the reality of divine judgement for false teaching, as God does judge people for false teaching.

Thank you all for graciously considering my admittedly controversial ideas.

 

[sniperelite7]

If God was as proactive in punishing false teaching as you say he is, then Christianity would not have anywhere near the amount of blood on its hands as it does today.

 

[Albion]

I personally have had God judge me for years because of errors in my theology as a new believer. This was transmitted to me through a higher education system that has no place for the concept of heresy. It angers me that our society does not take seriously the reality of divine judgement for false teaching, as God does judge people for false teaching.

Thank you all for graciously considering my admittedly controversial ideas.

But the highlighted part is not what has given us pause.

 

[Audacious]

Actually, Biblically and historically, death for heretics has been considered not only an act of justice and an act in defense of doctrine, but has been considered an act of love because it prevents the person from further incuring the wrath of God because of his heresy.

"Love one another" never excuses us from the other commands in scripture.

Like I said, while the Bible doesn't command the death penalty for heretics, it does allow for the death penalty for heretics.



"Thou shall not kill", more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder" does not apply to capital punishment.

I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't for killing those who disagreed with Him; He never said to Peter, 'Come, let us stone the Pharisees', though he could easily have told a crowd to stone them and those crowds would, often, have agreed to do it. He didn't go around killing people who said He wasn't the messiah, and in fact stopped Peter from killing the high priest who arrested him prior to his crucifixion.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Matthew 5:39-48

Seems like a statement which says 'don't kill nonbelievers', wouldn't you think?

James

 

[Theofane]

At the end of day, who is the final authority on heretics? The church or God? Heresy is a crime against a human institution, is it not? Against humans who have set themselves up as the final authority?