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Let's Talk About Hell (6)

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Timothew

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Luke 23:43: καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ -- And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Yes, perhaps. How about:
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise

or since the word order can vary in greek:
Today I say to you truly, you will be with me in paradise.

Didn't Jesus also say "I am going to prepare a place for you"? If the place is Paradise, and if this paradise is the new earth and heavens which he will create after the old heavens and earth are consumed in fire (as Peter foretold), then Jesus and the repentant thief will be in paradise, but not until after it is prepared. We can't be dogmatic either way from reading the greek in Luke 23:43. What a person believes from the rest of scripture determines how he interprets Luke 23:43.

That's why I say, "Yes, perhaps." But I want you to know that I have a lot of respect for you as a greek scholar.
 
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createdtoworship

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I thought that was pretty good. I'd follow Timothew's idea of highlighting the ἐκδημῆσαι -- ἐνδημῆσαι connection and translate something like: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from our bodily homes and at home with the Lord.

The ESV has: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The implication here, it seems to me, is that for Christians, "away from the body" implies "at home with the Lord."

home isn't in the greek either place. but can be implied (sort of) in the second instance.
 
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he-man

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home isn't in the greek either place. but can be implied (sort of) in the second instance.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]ενδημουντες ενδημησαι be endemic adj. native, local, indigenous[/FONT][/FONT]
 
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createdtoworship

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]ενδημουντες ενδημησαι be endemic adj. native, local, indigenous[/FONT][/FONT]

you prove my point, there is a different greek word for home, I believe it's oikos or something.
 
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Radagast

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Yes, perhaps. How about:
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise

or since the word order can vary in greek:
Today I say to you truly, you will be with me in paradise.

When Jesus says ἀμήν σοι λέγω, generally what follows is the statement he is making. "Today I say to you truly" is not something Jesus says elsewhere, and my feel is that if that was intended, σήμερον would come earlier in the sentence.

The other issue is: where do you think Jesus was when his body was in the grave?
 
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Timothew

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"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
1 Corinthians 15:3-4

This says nothing about Jesus Christ leaving His body behind and going somewhere else during those three days.
 
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createdtoworship

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18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
...1 Pe 3:18-20

The Holy Bible : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S.



there is a seminary level commentary on it...

"3:19-20. Through whom . . . He . . . preached to the spirits in prison has been subject to many interpretations. Some believe Peter here referred to the descent of Christ’s Spirit into hades between His death and resurrection to offer people who lived before the Flood a second chance for salvation. However, this interpretation has no scriptural support.
Others have said this passage refers to Christ’s descent into hell after His crucifixion to proclaim His victory to the imprisoned fallen angels referred to in 2 Peter 2:4-5, equating them with “the sons of God” Moses wrote about (Gen. 6:1-2). Though much commends this view as a possible interpretation, the context seems more likely to be referring to humans rather than angels.
The “spirits” (pneumasin, a term usually applied to supernatural beings but also used at least once to refer to human “spirits”; cf. Heb. 12:23) are described in 1 Peter 3:20 as those who were disobedient when God waited patiently for Noah to finish building the ark. They had rebelled against the message of God during the 120 years the ark was being built. God declared He would not tolerate people’s wickedness forever, but would extend His patience for only 120 more years (Gen. 6:3). Since the entire human race except Noah (Gen. 6:5-9) was evil, God determined to “wipe mankind . . . from the face of the earth.” The “spirits” referred to in 1 Peter 3:20 are probably the souls of the evil human race that existed in the days of Noah. Those “spirits” are now “in prison” awaiting the final judgment of God at the end of the Age.
The problem remains as to when Christ preached to these “spirits.” Peter’s explanation of the resurrection of Christ (3:18) “by the Spirit” brought to mind that the preincarnate Christ was actually in Noah, ministering through him, by means of the Holy Spirit. Peter (1:11) referred to the “Spirit of Christ” in the Old Testament prophets. Later he described Noah as “a preacher of righteousness” (2 Peter 2:5). The Spirit of Christ preached through Noah to the ungodly humans who, at the time of Peter’s writing, were “spirits in prison” awaiting final judgment.
This interpretation seems to fit the general theme of this section (1 Peter 3:13-22)—keeping a good conscience in unjust persecution. Noah is presented as an example of one who committed himself to a course of action for the sake of a clear conscience before God, though it meant enduring harsh ridicule. Noah did not fear men but obeyed God and proclaimed His message. Noah’s reward for keeping a clear conscience in unjust suffering was the salvation of himself and his family, who were saved through water, being brought safely through the Flood."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:851-852
 
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Radagast

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"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
1 Corinthians 15:3-4

This says nothing about Jesus Christ leaving His body behind and going somewhere else during those three days.

Doesn't that contradict the passage you translated from Paul, about being away from the body and at home with God?
 
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Radagast

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home isn't in the greek either place. but can be implied (sort of) in the second instance.

The two verbs ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι have the same root, and mean "to be away from home/abroad/in exile" and "to be at home/in one's own land/among one's own people" respectively.

"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from our bodily homes and at home with the Lord," my version of Timothew's translation, captures Paul's contrasting of the two related verbs.

The two verbs are derived from δῆμος, which in classical Greek meant something like "home country/region." The picture below shows Greek tokens used for jury selection, marked with a man's name, his father's name, and his home δῆμος.

400px-AGMA_Pinakia.jpg
 
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Timothew

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Doesn't that contradict the passage you translated from Paul, about being away from the body and at home with God?
I don't believe that it does. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about being resurrected. He talks about when we receive what is due in verse 10, when we appear before the judgment seat of Christ. This happens on Resurrection/Judgment Day.
 
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Radagast

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I don't believe that it does. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about being resurrected.

I don't think so. After the Resurrection we are in our bodies and with God.

He talks about when we receive what is due in verse 10, when we appear before the judgment seat of Christ. This happens on Resurrection/Judgment Day.

I read him as saying that the Resurrection/Judgment Day is after the period of being "away from the body and at home with the Lord."
 
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Timothew

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I don't think so. After the Resurrection we are in our bodies and with God.

I read him as saying that the Resurrection/Judgment Day is after the period of being "away from the body and at home with the Lord."
Yes, you agree with the standard church teaching on this. A lot of experts agree with you. I'll just say "Yes, perhaps" like before. After the Resurrection we are in the resurrection bodies that God makes for us and with God. Before death, we are in our natural bodies living our natural lives. After death but before resurrection, well the bible doesn't talk much about that. So I'll stick with "yes perhaps, but I don't know for sure."
 
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createdtoworship

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The two verbs ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι have the same root, and mean "to be away from home/abroad/in exile" and "to be at home/in one's own land/among one's own people" respectively.

"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from our bodily homes and at home with the Lord," my version of Timothew's translation, captures Paul's contrasting of the two related verbs.

The two verbs are derived from δῆμος, which in classical Greek meant something like "home country/region." The picture below shows Greek tokens used for jury selection, marked with a man's name, his father's name, and his home δῆμος.

400px-AGMA_Pinakia.jpg

none of the well repected translations agree with you, nor have home in there twice. Only in the end.

secondly, home is mentioned else where no need to mention it here.

Thirdly, "home/country/region" is not the same as home/home/home.

fourthly, even Hemans translation disagrees with you! 2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be out of the country and from the body to be native with regard to the Lord.(post 483)

timothews does to!

fifthly there is another greek word used for home and it's used a few verses later, NOT using this word for it which is by implication only and not actually containing home in the greek.
 
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Timothew

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2 Corinthians 5:8 says
θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον.
We are of good courage and prefer rather to be away from home from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
I still like this translation. Other than the wordiness which I was unable to avoid and stay true to the greek text.
θαρροῦμεν δὲ But we are of good courage (de is a linking word, and not always translated)
καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν and we prefer (I just used the "We" from the beginning of the sentence)
μᾶλλον rather (this word works well with εὐδοκοῦμεν)
ἐκδημῆσαι to be away from home (to be out of our city)
ἐκ τοῦ σώματος from the body (Paul's nice alliteration ek...ek)
καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι and to be at home (and in the city)
πρὸς τὸν κύριον. with the Lord. (sounds a lot like pros ton theon from John 1)

Perhaps it could read:
But we are of good courage preferring to be out of our city, out of this body, and in the city before the Lord.
 
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