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Mary Omniscient and Omnipresent?

Protoevangel

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I'll keep a seat open for when you're ready to come back.
Ah, you are a funny man. ^_^


Regarding the genuine Lutheran position on Soul Sleep, I can only refer you to your own home forum, http://www.christianforums.com/f367/, DaRev is very knowledgeable and willing to help honest inquirers, or to the LCMS Christian Cyclopedia article on the subject: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia. If you aren't a Confessional Lutheran, then I don't know what to say to you. You are free to believe whatever wind of doctrine catches your whim.


As for the rest of your post and your latest reply to Rus, as I said I'm not interested in debate, or in your pretense. If you are genuinly interested, and not just looking for an argument, I will refer you to Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople. Now, I am done casting pearls. Good day.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, the assumptions here are that the dead are conscious, by some means able to hear your prayer, and also by some means able to intercede.

well, they are. Moses was dead but aware of Christ's Passion and spoke to Him about it at the Transfiguration, the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham were all aware of their states and the states of others (and Abraham knew of the Law and prophets long after his death), St Peter in his epistle speaks of continuing to work for the faithful even after his death, and the saints are aware and praying in the book of Revelation.
 
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Resha Caner

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Regarding the genuine Lutheran position on Soul Sleep, I can only refer you to your own home forum, http://www.christianforums.com/f367/, DaRev is very knowledgeable and willing to help honest inquirers, or to the LCMS Christian Cyclopedia article on the subject: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia. If you aren't a Confessional Lutheran, then I don't know what to say to you. You are free to believe whatever wind of doctrine catches your whim.

I know who DaRev is, and I could give an answer if you were interested.

As for the rest of your post and your latest reply to Rus, as I said I'm not interested in debate, or in your pretense. If you are genuinly interested, and not just looking for an argument, I will refer you to Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople. Now, I am done casting pearls. Good day.

First, there is no pretense. As I understand the rules, I am not allowed to debate in St. Basil, but I am allowed to debate in St. Justin. Therefore, I am within the rules. If you don't wish to participate ... shrug ... then don't.

Second, I was not debating you (yet). I was correcting improper information about the Lutheran position. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but the ad hominem reply is unbecoming.

I will read the link you gave, as my interest is sincere. I also have another question, but I will pose it to the others.
 
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Resha Caner

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Or, you and Mary can pray to God together and where two or more are joined in Christ's name He is there with them.

No offense to Mary, as I look forward to possibly meeting her some day, but I'd rather pray with my wife, family, friends, and congregation.
 
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Trogool

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No offense to Mary, as I look forward to possibly meeting her some day, but I'd rather pray with my wife, family, friends, and congregation.

No one is saying you can't.
rolleyes.gif


It's not like you have a limit on prayer.

O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us - YouTube
 
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rusmeister

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That is exactly why I used Buddha as an example. I can think of all kinds of possibilities, but what good are they if God says he is going to limit those possibilities?

It seems you agree with that (i.e. that Buddha is outside Christianity). As I understand it, Orthodox theology is framed by scripture + tradition (even though I find "tradition" to be very vaguely defined). So, I was asking if these beliefs come from scripture, tradition, or both? WRT tradition, was there something at a Council or in some other context where this idea was debated?

Proto presented what he thought was scriptural support. I don't expect that position will change, so I'll push on to the next question: what, then, from tradition backs this up? The section of the Confessions that Proto quoted basically claims there is no support in the tradition.



Then what's the point? I can pray to Mary who is limited or God who is unlimited. I think I'll take my chances with God.

FYI, I think you and I see prayer very differently.

On this last, you can pray your friend Dave ("Prithee, Dave, pray thee to God for me...") to pray to God for you, or you can just pray to God and not ask ANYBODY else to pray for you - but then there's this injunction to pray for others, not sure if you know about that...

On the first, you could find answers yourself by googling the question, as I did - since you want stuff that is not off the top of our heads, we learned it five or ten years ago and then forgot the details of "which church fathers said what..."
Here's one; if you accept the need for continuous Tradition, that we can't just make up our own theology now, then this has some of the support from both ascripture and Tradition that you are asking for:

Intercession of Saints - Orthodox Christian Resource Center

But if you are determined NOT to accept the answers, then I don't want to have such "debates", either.
 
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Resha Caner

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well, they are. Moses was dead but aware of Christ's Passion and spoke to Him about it at the Transfiguration, the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham were all aware of their states and the states of others (and Abraham knew of the Law and prophets long after his death), St Peter in his epistle speaks of continuing to work for the faithful even after his death, and the saints are aware and praying in the book of Revelation.

But it was Christ who invoked Moses, not a saint. He appeared on earth; did not remain in heaven (or I suppose you could interpret it as the disciples were transported to heaven), and he never spoke to anyone except for Christ.

In the Revelation, it was again a special case of souls in heaven pleading their own case to God, not pleading the case of others who had prayed to them. Further, the Greek can be interpreted as "screaming" rather than "talking", much like the blood of Abel (did the blood of Abel literally cry out?) Note that these were also martyrs, not just saints who had passed on of natural causes. To interpret this as consciousness is not completely unfounded, but still a little dubious given the nature of the Revelation and the fact that John was in heaven - a place bound to be much different than our current existence.


The story of Lazarus is just that, a story (a Parable), and it is always dangerous to deduce doctrine from a Parable that is secondary to the main point. But, if that's what we're going to do, note that Lazarus and the rich man never conversed with each other. It was strictly the rich man and Abraham (a special case, and both dead at the time), and Abraham denied the request to send someone to speak to the living.

I'm not sure I know the reference in Peter. Can you tell me more specifically, please?

So, all of these seem to be special cases with a special purpose. It seems to me a bit arrogant on our part to expect the same treatment as the Apostles ... and even then the Apostles were not given this special treatment because of who they were but because of what God intended to do. Just like the "big" miracles, if one takes an honest look at scripture one finds them to be very rare and for a very specific purpose of furthering God's will, not a mundane daily experience of every living saint.

I'm surprised no one brought up Samuel, but maybe that's because of the circumstances of Saul's wickedness under which that occurred. Probably not a good example.

However, with all that said, note what I said earlier about the Confessions. They concede that it might be possible that the dead saints pray in some general way. I just find it curious that they didn't mention the verses you quote. I'm quite sure they were aware of them.

So, next question: how is it determined who one can pray to?
 
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Resha Caner

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ArmyMatt

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But it was Christ who invoked Moses, not a saint. He appeared on earth; did not remain in heaven (or I suppose you could interpret it as the disciples were transported to heaven), and he never spoke to anyone except for Christ.

does not matter, your question was if they are conscious, and they are.

I'm not sure I know the reference in Peter. Can you tell me more specifically, please?

it's in one of his epistles, where he talks about his departure and putting off the tent.

The story of Lazarus is just that, a story (a Parable), and it is always dangerous to deduce doctrine from a Parable that is secondary to the main point. But, if that's what we're going to do, note that Lazarus and the rich man never conversed with each other. It was strictly the rich man and Abraham (a special case, and both dead at the time), and Abraham denied the request to send someone to speak to the living.

I know it's a parable, but it clearly shows the belief that the departed are aware. it does not matter that the rich man does not talk to Lazarus. what matters is that the rich man and Abraham talk.
 
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Resha Caner

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does not matter, your question was if they are conscious, and they are.

All the examples you provided me have mitigating circumstances, and are, therefore, not convincing to me. Maybe we'd have to go much deeper into methods of exegesis before you would understand - if you're even interested.

But, once again, I'll state that the Confessions admit some sort of general prayer as a possibility ... whatever that means.

it's in one of his epistles, where he talks about his departure and putting off the tent.

I found it. 2 Peter 1:15. Now this one is very compelling, I will admit. I don't have an answer for it. So, this is a question I'll put in front of DaRev and see what he says.
 
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ArmyMatt

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All the examples you provided me have mitigating circumstances, and are, therefore, not convincing to me. Maybe we'd have to go much deeper into methods of exegesis before you would understand - if you're even interested.

I don't think they are mitigating, in that every time one who has reposed is seen with some form of awareness in Scripture, stems to reason that souls are aware of whatever God wants them to be aware of.

I found it. 2 Peter 1:15. Now this one is very compelling, I will admit. I don't have an answer for it. So, this is a question I'll put in front of DaRev and see what he says.

be interesting to hear what he says
 
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rusmeister

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Thanks. That gives me quite a list of texts to chase. I imagine I'll be busy for quite some time.

[edit] I guess I would ask, though, what you make of the argument given in the Confessions that no one prior to Gregory ever asked for an intercession, and, therefore, that it appears to be a later invention.

Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

When you say "...no one prior to Gregory..." what you must realize is that that has to mean "No one that we know of" or, as is more often the case, "No one that I know of (yet)".

There is what actually happened, what was recorded about it, and what we know of what was recorded. The first is too big to fit into any book, the second fits into a large number of books, and the third is the tiny fraction that we have in our heads.

In the end, I accept authority when I find that it consistently tells the truth, when, as GK Chesterton put it, I find that it is right, not only where I am right, but where I am (turn out to be) wrong. In my own experience, I discovered that my Baptist-bred attitudes toward confession and Mary were wrong, infused by Romophobia. When I REALLY inquired, and stopped trying to just disprove things, I realized that what the Church teaches is deeper than the propaganda and superficial ideas that continue to reverbate throughout the western world today about those things. It was learning about what Confession really IS that led directly and immediately to my conversion, when, in talking to Fr Victor Sokolov (Memory eternal!) I realized that, in attending a secular men's group I had been confessing all the time in front of a whole group of men without calling it confession, yet I had a problem doing the same thing in front of a single priest because I imagined that the priest was somehow "getting between me and God" - and that's how a great many people wrongly imagine the idea.
 
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Protoevangel

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I know who DaRev is, and I could give an answer if you were interested.
Completely unnecessary. I am intimately familiar with the Book of Concord, having led studies on it for years.

First, there is no pretense. As I understand the rules, I am not allowed to debate in St. Basil, but I am allowed to debate in St. Justin. Therefore, I am within the rules. If you don't wish to participate ... shrug ... then don't.

Second, I was not debating you (yet). I was correcting improper information about the Lutheran position.
It was either pretense or foolish condesention. To demonstrate:

So, the assumptions here are that the dead are conscious,
The Apology of the Augsburg Confession admits that the "concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general" To do that, they must be conscious.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you misunderstand the quoted phrase, and so have used it out of context. ...

It is not that we agree to a point and the Orthodox go further. Rather, it is an outright opposition of views.
Okay, first of all, There was nothing taken out of context, and there is no need to pretend I was minimizing the differences between our views. I gave you no reason to assume that, or to assume I did not understand what I was quoting.

Okay, so then, what did I actually say?

The Apology of the Augsburg Confession admits that the "concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general" To do that, they must be conscious. In that, we agree with the Lutheran Church. We just disagree that it ends there.
Once again, I am not minimizing those differences, I quite intentionally did not even go there. For the purpose of answering the question that I was answering, I do not even care about the differences. I specifically did not mention the Lutheran belief that the Saints are not to be prayed to. Why? Because it was completely irrelevant to the context. I simply used that quote to demonstrate that the Confessional Lutheran position is not that the saints are "unconcious". Something that you yourself later admitted to:

However, with all that said, note what I said earlier about the Confessions. They concede that it might be possible that the dead saints pray in some general way.
I should not even have to explain this. Your taking my post out of context, if not trying to pretentiously create an atmosphere of antagonism, was very simpleminded and arrogant. If you would like to stop assuming I'm saying something that I am pretty clearly not saying, we can continue. If , on the oher hand, you want to rely on straw men, the discussion will go well, and I will cut it short.

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but the ad hominem reply is unbecoming.
There was no ad hominem. If you are going to invent arguments I'm not making, this is not worth the time or trouble. I would indeed be throwing pearls. I'm willing though to give this anther shot, if you are willing to stop arguing against what I don't say, and assuming my ignorance.

Nuts. The nearest copy is a 1 1/2 hour drive away. I'll put it on the list for my next trip down there.
I'd send you mine, but it's been loaned out for a couple of years.
 
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Protoevangel

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When you say "...no one prior to Gregory..." what you must realize is that that has to mean "No one that we know of" or, as is more often the case, "No one that I know of (yet)".

There is what actually happened, what was recorded about it, and what we know of what was recorded. The first is too big to fit into any book, the second fits into a large number of books, and the third is the tiny fraction that we have in our heads.

In the end, I accept authority when I find that it consistently tells the truth, when, as GK Chesterton put it, I find that it is right, not only where I am right, but where I am (turn out to be) wrong. In my own experience, I discovered that my Baptist-bred attitudes toward confession and Mary were wrong, infused by Romophobia. When I REALLY inquired, and stopped trying to just disprove things, I realized that what the Church teaches is deeper than the propaganda and superficial ideas that continue to reverbate throughout the western world today about those things. It was learning about what Confession really IS that led directly and immediately to my conversion, when, in talking to Fr Victor Sokolov (Memory eternal!) I realized that, in attending a secular men's group I had been confessing all the time in front of a whole group of men without calling it confession, yet I had a problem doing the same thing in front of a single priest because I imagined that the priest was somehow "getting between me and God" - and that's how a great many people wrongly imagine the idea.
QFT.

I do think that many of the Western Protestant and Lutheran* misunderstandings of Orthodox belief are actually valid objections of he Western abuses of Rome, that have a superficial similarity to our beliefs and practices. Unfortunately, not having any actual contact with the Eastern connection to Apostolic Tradition, Luther and the Lutheran Fathers were "on their own" so to speak, without a tie to the true Apostolic Tradition, surviving in the East.


* I mention Lutheran separately to Protestant because the Confessional Lutheran understanding of itself is as the continuation of the Catholic Church in the West. Things such as belief the ever-virginity of Mary is allowed (not required), many parishes are "Higher Church" than I've seen in most Catholic Churches; private confession is allowed and even sometimes encouraged, but never required; in the Lord's Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present... etc.

If you are interested, I would reccomend the same book to you that i did to Resha,
Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople on the Augsburg Confession
. I'm sorry, I don't know if there is a Russian translation or not. The book mainly comprises of the letters between the Tubingen Lutheran Theologians (who also wrote much of the official Lutheran Confessions), and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople.
 
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ArmyMatt

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4) What scripture, tradition, or church father are these beliefs based upon?

haha, sorry I forgot this. read about the martyrdom of St Polycarp of Smyrna. he was a disciple of St John the Revelator
 
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Resha Caner

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When you say "...no one prior to Gregory..." what you must realize is that that has to mean "No one that we know of" or, as is more often the case, "No one that I know of (yet)".

Again, that could be applied to anything. I've had Gnostics tell me that the reason there is no evidence of Gnosticism in the scripture is because there was a conspiracy to shut them out, led mainly by John who slandered Thomas in his Gospel. Uh huh. If there is no evidence of it among the Apostles - no evidence, it appears, until roughly the time of Constantine - then I find it very suspect.
 
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Resha Caner

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ArmyMatt

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OK. I read it: The Wesley Center Online: The Martyrom Of Polycarp Or Letter Of The Smyrnaeans

I'm not sure what I was supposed to get out of that.

somewhere I thought I read him seen in a vision after his martyrdom, interceding for the faithful, I mighta got the wrong saint.

Evenso, I guess the question I'm more interested in now is how the list of acceptable saints was created.

we believe that through the Church as a whole God reveals things. so a saint is one whose veneration grows, usually locally to universally. the Church then looks at the saint's life and usually miracles happen. folks start making unofficial hymns and icons to the person. the saint is often called saint or blessed even before they are officially glorified, and the Church just formally recognizes the holiness that had always been there.
 
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