Question about President Obama

[TLK Valentine]

Marxists don't want a voice in government. They want to be the voice of government.

So do Christian Dominionists -- so what?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Marxists don't want to be American citizens. They hate America; marxists want to be something other than Americans, and not citizens, but comrades.

Marxists don't want a voice in government. They want to be the voice of government.

What's your evidence of this?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Actually, they were. I presented the evidence earlier ... which you choose to ignore.

I didn't ignore it. I commented on it - on which you ignored. I said his father, as your very own link said and quoted portion said, was a socialist, and that his mother was neither socialist or communist.

 

[NightHawkeye]

What's your evidence of this?

ROTFL ... you really haven't studied much history have you, CurlyFries?

Russia
USSR
Nazi Germany
Communist China
Cuba
North Korea
Warsaw bloc
Cambodia
Vietnam
and ... on and on ...

Communist manifesto
Cloward and Pivens
Rules for Radicals

Or, better yet, just read "The Revolution Betrayed" by Leon Trotsky who, incidentally was betrayed by Lenin and Stalin ... Oops. Speculation is that he was assassinated by Stalin's goons.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

ROTFL ... you really haven't studied much history have you, CurlyFries?

On the contrary, I'm a history major studying to be a history teacher. I just don't care to add things to history like you do, as evidenced below:

Russia
USSR

Same thing, not sure why you listed them twice, and both countries "hated" us not because they were Marxist, but because we made it our mission to stop them any time they tried to do something.

Nazi Germany

Not Marxist. Hitler hated Marxists. And Germany didn't particularly hate the U.S. We were just enemies in war.

Communist China

I'm not sure what evidence you have that China "hates" us, rather than just treats us as political rivals.

Cuba

Consider our relationship with Cuba. Once again, they don't hate us because they are Marxists, they hate us because we treat them like crap.

North Korea

They hate everybody, and it's not because they are Marxist.

Warsaw bloc

Again, no evidence they "hate" the U.S. and even if they did, it wasn't because they were Marxist.

Cambodia
Vietnam

We helped Pol Pot stay in power. He didn't hate us. And even if he did, it wasn't because of Marxism.

As for Vietnam, we tore apart their country for almost twenty years. Any hate they have for us is because of that, not because of Marxism.

Communist manifesto

Where does the Communist Manifesto teach hatred for America?

Cloward and Pivens

Do you have any evidence that they hated America?

Rules for Radicals

Where does it teach hate for America?

Still no evidence of Marxism teaching hatred of America. I'm going to need quotes and sources here, Hawk, not just a list of irrelevant names you pulled of Beck's website.

 

[RETS]

As for Vietnam, we tore apart their country for almost twenty years. Any hate they have for us is because of that, not because of Marxism.

Sorry, but I have to stop you on Vietnam.

More than half of that country was rooting for the U.S. to win, because the other side was even more cruel: For example, they put infants on pikes for no other reason than to remind the people of that village NOT to associate with the U.S. forces; used toddlers as living bombs, (and I don't mean suicide bombers); used women and other children to run live grenades at U.S. forces; and the list continues.

That war did not have to end the way it did, nor did we have to be there as long as we were. The defeat was manufactured, as was the length of time we were there, and when we left... When we left, scores of Vietnamese were left at the bases, trying desperately to get on the transport planes, not wanting to be in their own country; and why? Because we were leaving.

If Vietnam as a whole country hates us, it's not because of how long the war lasted- That war had been raging for years prior to our involvement. It's because we turned tail and ran home, leaving them to the cruelty of the "victors."

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

If Vietnam as a whole country hates us, it's not because of how long the war lasted- That war had been raging for years prior to our involvement. It's because we turned tail and ran home, leaving them to the cruelty of the "victors."

Meh. Either way, the point is they don't hate us because they are Marxist (assuming they actually hate us), they hate us because of something we did to them.

 

[Trogool]

My favorite was the idea that North Korea hates us because they are Communist. I lol'ed

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

My favorite was the idea that North Korea hates us because they are Communist. I lol'ed

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Just for understanding's sake, why?

 

[Trogool]

Just for understanding's sake, why?

As opposed to them "hating" us because they are a totalitarian dictatorship run by a dynasty of delusional maniacs who seem to hate everyone just because?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[RETS]

Meh. Either way, the point is they don't hate us because they are Marxist (assuming they actually hate us), they hate us because of something we did to them.

Yeah, Marxist isn't accurate, so I agree with that; I just had to point out that what most folks are being taught regarding Vietnam these days is also NOT accurate.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Yeah, Marxist isn't accurate, so I agree with that; I just had to point out that what most folks are being taught regarding Vietnam these days is also NOT accurate.

Oh, definitely. Can't portray America as a scared dog running away from a fight with her tail between her legs.

 

[RETS]

Oh, definitely. Can't portray America as a scared dog running away from a fight with her tail between her legs.

And the sad part is that it wasn't so much "America" as it was her leaders. I've met literally hundreds of Vietnam vets who would have preferred to stay there fighting- And some of them did just that.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

And the sad part is that it wasn't so much "America" as it was her leaders. I've met literally hundreds of Vietnam vets who would have preferred to stay there fighting- And some of them did just that.

That's the crux of the issue. The problem is, people don't look at it that way. Take Ron Paul, for example. When he says "America is at fault for 9/11," he's not talking about the country as a whole, he's talking about our government. But people don't look at it that way. To them, any suggestion that any facet of America fails at something or did something wrong, even the government (ironically), is practically criminal.

It's tied up in the flawed philosophy (and I'm being generous by calling it a "philosophy", as there is nothing wise about it) of American Exceptionalism.

 

[NightHawkeye]

On the contrary, I'm a history major studying to be a history teacher. I just don't care to add things to history like you do, as evidenced below ...

Well ... let's deal with FACTS, then, CurlyFries. No wishful thinking or revisionism on your part now.

Same thing ...

Mistake 1. That's your first mistake, CurlyFries. Russia is not equivalent to the USSR. I would think that a history major would understand the important, and very real, distinctions.

... not sure why you listed them twice ...

Mistake 2. Repeating your mistaken mantra will not make it so ...

... and both countries "hated" us not because they were Marxist ...

Mistake 3. Red herring. The topic is Marxists seizing control of government. At least you agree that they "hated" the US though.

... but because we made it our mission to stop them any time they tried to do something.

Mistake 4. Russia did many things which the USA did not condone but the USA certainly did not stop them either.

Not Marxist. Hitler hated Marxists.

So he said ... but then, Hitler said many things which were not so.

Yet, his National Socialism - NAZI - party is largely indistinguishable from many Marxist regimes in action and deeds.

And Germany didn't particularly hate the U.S. We were just enemies in war.

Funny how that works ...

I'm not sure what evidence you have that China "hates" us, rather than just treats us as political rivals.

Again, the topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

Consider our relationship with Cuba. Once again, they don't hate us because they are Marxists, they hate us because we treat them like crap.

You completely disregard the fact that Fidel Castro assumed totalitarian power immediately. That seems particularly relevant to our conversation about how Marxists take over and fundamentally transform government.

Why the focus on "hate", btw?

They hate everybody, and it's not because they are Marxist.

Completely untrue. The North Koreans survive only because of the long-lived support from China, the USSR and the Russians. Don't forget that North Korea has had a vigorous arms trade with both Iran and Iraq. They don't "hate" everybody.

More relevant to the conversation though, you completely disregard the fact that the Marxists assumed totalitarian control immediately upon coming to power. That seems particularly relevant to our conversation about how Marxists take over and fundamentally transform government.

Again, no evidence they "hate" the U.S. and even if they did, it wasn't because they were Marxist.

The topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

We helped Pol Pot stay in power. He didn't hate us. And even if he did, it wasn't because of Marxism.

Pol Pot was a determined Maoist. He sided with the Vietnamese communists early on. Methinks your history is badly confused, CurlyFries.

Thanks for helping make my point though about how Marxists seize power and enact fundamental transformation against the wishes of the populace: Pol Pot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saloth Sar (19 May 1925 – 15 April 1998), better known as Pol Pot, was a Cambodian Maoist revolutionary who led the Khmer Rouge from 1963 until his death in 1998. From 1963 to 1981, he served as the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. From 1976 to 1979, he also served as the prime minister of Democratic Kampuchea. Pol Pot became leader of Cambodia on April 17, 1975. During his time in power he imposed agrarian socialism, forcing urban dwellers to relocate to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labor projects. The combined effects of forced labor, malnutrition, poor medical care, and executions resulted in the deaths of approximately 21% of the Cambodian population. In all, an estimated 800,000 to three million people (out of a population of approximately seven million) died under his three-year premiership.
​

As for Vietnam, we tore apart their country for almost twenty years. Any hate they have for us is because of that, not because of Marxism.

The topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

Where does the Communist Manifesto teach hatred for America?

The topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

Do you have any evidence that they hated America?

Cloward and Pivens structured a plan to deliberately collapse our economic structure.

The topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government ... like Cloward and Pivens describe.

Where does it teach hate for America?

The topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government, just like the Communist Manifesto describes. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

Why the focus on "hate", CurlyFries? We could have had a good discussion about facts if you hadn't fixated on "hate".

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Well ... let's deal with FACTS, then, CurlyFries. No wishful thinking or revisionism on your part now.

And none on your part, either

Mistake 1. That's your first mistake, CurlyFries. Russia is not equivalent to the USSR. I would think that a history major would understand the important, and very real, distinctions.

The USSR was Russia, it was just communist Russia. It's still the same country though.

But if you're talking about Russia now, you're still wrong, as Russia now is not Marxist.

The topic is Marxists seizing control of government.

What? Since when? The specific thing I asked for proof of was that Marxists hate America.

Mistake 4. Russia did many things which the USA did not condone but the USA certainly did not stop them either.

So we're ignoring the four decades between World War II and the 90s where the sum of American foreign policy was "stopping the commies"?

So he said ... but then, Hitler said many things which were not so.

Except this one actually was so, considering the first people sent to the concentration camps were German communists. Hitler thought Marxists and "Bolshevism" were the means of "the international Jew" to "undermine racial purity", etc. etc. He whined a lot about why Marxism/communism was bad, actually. Any time the Nazis took over a country, the communists and socialists were the first ones to be oppressed and killed.

Yet, his National Socialism - NAZI - party is largely indistinguishable from many Marxist regimes in action and deeds.

Because it was fascist, though, as I've pointed out many times. It's the fascism, not the Marxism/socialism, that led to those actions and deeds. Hitler wasn't even a real socialist, he was an authoritarian capitalist.

Funny how that works ...

Not really. It's pretty normal.

Again, the topic at hand is Marxists taking over and fundamentally transforming government. I presume that you're now focusing on "hate" because that's your best argument. Too bad.

No, I'm focusing on hate because that's what I was asking for evidence of. The claim was made that Marxists hate the U.S., so I asked for proof of that.

You completely disregard the fact that Fidel Castro assumed totalitarian power immediately. That seems particularly relevant to our conversation about how Marxists take over and fundamentally transform government.

No, it's relevant to my point that fascists will use any ideology to gain power.

Why the focus on "hate", btw?

I'm not repeating myself. Just read what I said two times prior.

Completely untrue. The North Koreans survive only because of the long-lived support from China, the USSR and the Russians. Don't forget that North Korea has had a vigorous arms trade with both Iran and Iraq. They don't "hate" everybody.

All of those are alliances of convenience. It doesn't mean they don't "hate" everybody. North Korea is isolationist for a reason.

More relevant to the conversation though, you completely disregard the fact that the Marxists assumed totalitarian control immediately upon coming to power. That seems particularly relevant to our conversation about how Marxists take over and fundamentally transform government.

It has nothing to do with Marxism, though, and everything to do with fascism.

Cloward and Pivens structured a plan to deliberately collapse our economic structure.

In order to bring in what they believed was a newer and better system. That's not hatred of America.

And the rest would just be me repeating myself.

 

[RETS]

That's the crux of the issue. The problem is, people don't look at it that way. Take Ron Paul, for example. When he says "America is at fault for 9/11," he's not talking about the country as a whole, he's talking about our government. But people don't look at it that way. To them, any suggestion that any facet of America fails at something or did something wrong, even the government (ironically), is practically criminal.

It's tied up in the flawed philosophy (and I'm being generous by calling it a "philosophy", as there is nothing wise about it) of American Exceptionalism.

Oh, I think the US is exceptional, all right. There are no other countries exactly like it on the planet- Similar, I'll grant, but not same.

With that said, though, it must also be recognized that part of our exceptionalism is being able to put ourselves in the most exceptional messes!!

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Oh, I think the US is exceptional, all right. There are no other countries exactly like it on the planet- Similar, I'll grant, but not same.

With that said, though, it must also be recognized that part of our exceptionalism is being able to put ourselves in the most exceptional messes!!

Ain't that the truth...and the problem is, as long as we demonize those who suggest we take responsibility for those messes, we'll never stop making them.

 

[NightHawkeye]

The USSR was Russia, it was just communist Russia. It's still the same country though.

You know ... I could be subtle, but that doesn't seem to work with you, CurlyFries.

Look at a map: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/europe/2001/collapse_of_ussr/maps/1.stm

To call Russia the USSR is just ignorant. Many of those 14 other republics were vehemently opposed, not just to the USSR, but to Russia. Many broke away as fast as they could when the USSR collapsed.

But if you're talking about Russia now, you're still wrong, as Russia now is not Marxist.

LOL ... depends on whether you're talking about what Marxism really is - totalitarian despotism - or Karl Marx's Utopian ideology which has never existed.

What? Since when?

Since the post I responded to, CurlyFries ... this one:

Marxists don't want to be American citizens. They hate America; marxists want to be something other than Americans, and not citizens, but comrades.

Marxists don't want a voice in government. They want to be the voice of government.

What's your evidence of this?

The specific thing I asked for proof of was that Marxists hate America.

LOL ... hate was a minor aspect of the post you questioned ... and for which I offered evidence.

Thanks for the offering me the opportunity to elaborate on the rest of it though.

Except this one actually was so, considering the first people sent to the concentration camps were German communists. Hitler thought Marxists and "Bolshevism" were the means of "the international Jew" to "undermine racial purity", etc. etc. He whined a lot about why Marxism/communism was bad, actually. Any time the Nazis took over a country, the communists and socialists were the first ones to be oppressed and killed.

How is that different from what most Marxists do when they assume power. The useful idiots who fought for the revolution are eliminated first, followed by some "intellectuals" and then miscellaneous others who pose a threat to the new regime.

Because it was fascist, though, as I've pointed out many times. It's the fascism, not the Marxism/socialism, that led to those actions and deeds. Hitler wasn't even a real socialist, he was an authoritarian capitalist.

Keep studying history, CurlyFries. Every totalitarian despot is as unique as the individual. Mao was hardly the same as Lenin or Stalin. All of them were quite different from Castro. Yet, still, these despots go through many of the same motions. Marxist may actually be a poor descriptor for any of them.

Still, the similarities among them are far stronger than the minor differences. A skunk by any other name, ya know ...

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

LOL ... depends on whether you're talking about what Marxism really is - totalitarian despotism - or Karl Marx's Utopian ideology which has never existed.

Oh, well if all you're defining Marxism as is "totalitarian despotism"...then pretty much every government and empire in history has been Marxist at some point, including the Christian governments of Medieval Europe.

LOL ... hate was a minor aspect of the post you questioned ... and for which I offered evidence.

It wasn't a minor aspect, it was the first thing he said. And no, you didn't offer any evidence that Marxists hate America solely because of their Marxism.

How is that different from what most Marxists do when they assume power. The useful idiots who fought for the revolution are eliminated first, followed by some "intellectuals" and then miscellaneous others who pose a threat to the new regime.

Because it's nothing to do with Marxism and everything to do with fascism, despite your attempts at conflating the two.