Is it faith, works, or both?

[fhansen]

If there was no Law, then God obviously had no reason to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah or the world for that matter. Do you know what sin is? Sin is breaking God's Law.

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Adam broke God's Law by eating the forbidden fruit, so did Cain by killing his brother.

Of course there was law-that's the point of Rom 2-but it was in God's mind and buried in mans heart where He originally wrote it; it hadn't yet been formally given at Sinai. Adam & Eve were the only ones who broke a law God had explicitly given them until Moses received the Decalogue. Otherwise, man did what was right in his own eyes, and sin, as I said, and you apparently agree, flourished. Otherwise it makes no sense for Rom 2 to speak of those who sin and perish "apart from the Law."

 

[OpenDoor]

I'm not sure that is entirely true. Everything that we receive from God is grace, so, if God blesses us because of our good works then we gained grace. Of course, God's grace allowed us to do the works in the first place.

We cannot justify ourselves through works. We need grace. It is God's gift.

If you receive grace by good works you did not receive grace.

If your earn it then grace stops being grace.

 

[OpenDoor]

How is salvation acquired? How does one get to be in the Kingdom of God?

by grace you have been saved through faith (the gift of God)

 

[Lion King]

by grace you have been saved through faith (the gift of God)

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Lion King]

Of course there was law-that's the point of Rom 2-but it was in God's mind and buried in mans heart where He originally wrote it; it hadn't yet been formally given at Sinai. Adam & Eve were the only ones who broke a law God had explicitly given them until Moses received the Decalogue. Otherwise, man did what was right in his own eyes, and sin, as I said, and you apparently agree, flourished. Otherwise it makes no sense for Rom 2 to speak of those who sin and perish "apart from the Law."

You do realise that the Law of God and the Mosaic Law are different, right?

 

[fhansen]

You do realise that the Law of God and the Mosaic Law are different, right?

The Law given to Moses on Sinai was given by God.

 

[Lion King]

The Law given to Moses on Sinai was given by God.

Of course, but you do realize it was only for a given time, right? However, the Law of God was present even at the beginning of the world.

 

[fhansen]

Of course, but you do realize it was only for a given time, right? However, the Law of God was present even at the beginning of the world.

I don't know what you're driving at. As I said, man sins whether or not He's heard the Law.

 

[Lion King]

I don't know what you're driving at. As I said, man sins whether or not He's heard the Law.

...because he has the LAW in his heart. Just because someone has not heard the Law of God before does not mean that there is no Law. Everyone since the beginning of the world knew killing was wrong...

What I'm driving at, is that the Law of God existed even at the beginning of the world.

 

[Yarddog]

I'm not talking about the Mosaic Law, but the Law of God. Huge difference...

Yes, but Paul is talking about the Mosaic Law when he is talking to the Jews. Abraham was not saved by works of the Law, he was saved by faith.

Maybe there was no written Law as you say...but the LAW of God was present even in Genesis. Otherwise, the LORD would not have destroyed the world by water.

List those laws.

Just because there was no written Law does not mean there was no LAW. Cain committed a sin by killing his brother, which means that he broke the LAW of God.

As I pointed out, knowledge of good and evil came through partaking the fruit. Cain chose evil.

No Law=no sin.

Not according to Paul.
Roman 5
12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13. for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

 

[Yarddog]

If you receive grace by good works you did not receive grace.

If your earn it then grace stops being grace.

No, we have a different view of grace. Everything we receive from God comes through his grace. If through God's Spirit we do good works and then God gives us more grace, we can say that through those works God gave grace.

If we do works, through his Holy Spirit, they are really not our works but the Spirits. We cooperate with God by surrendering to his will.

There is a difference between works which man does to try and justify himself and those that he does through the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lion King]

Yes, but Paul is talking about the Mosaic Law when he is talking to the Jews. Abraham was not saved by works of the Law, he was saved by faith.

Yes, Abraham was saved by faith, and not works of the Law (Sabbath, circumcision etc). However, his faith was made complete by his works (love).

List those laws.

1. Love thy LORD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
2. Love thy neighbor.

As I pointed out, knowledge of good and evil came through partaking the fruit. Cain chose evil.

Adam broke the commandment of God by eating the forbidden fruit, meaning the Law existed even before eating the fruit.

Not according to Paul.
Roman 5
12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13. for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

So, if sin was not imputed, why did God then destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[ananda]

It appears there is a contradiction in certain verses of the Bible concerning faith, and works.

There is no contradiction when we acknowledge that Messiah is our only Master and Teacher (Mt 23:8-10, cf Mt 10:24), and we should listen to Him above all others. Now, according to Messiah's parables, salvation is by trust and obedience - just as a faithful wife trusts and obeys her Father and/or Husband in her love for Him.

To debate faith vs works is, in my opinion, a symptom that a debater is missing an intimate relationship with Yeshua Messiah and YHWH Elohim. A servant (and not necessarily a saved one) is one who asks "must I have faith and/or works" to enter into his Master's kingdom. On the other hand, a child or a wife is one who knows that she should "trust and obey" her first and only Love, and knows that she is already a part of His (Father's & Husband's) Home.

 

[Yarddog]

Yes, Abraham was saved by faith, and not works of the Law (Sabbath, circumcision etc). However, his faith was made complete by his works (love).

Yes, his love for God. He obeyed God out of love.

1. Love thy LORD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
2. Love thy neighbor.

Where are they listed in Genesis? We can see God's commands in Genesis some to all but also some to individuals such as Noah or Abraham or Lot..
Be fruitful and multiply.
Eat from any tree in the Garden, except the Tree of Knowledge.
You shall eat the grass of the field.
Do not kill Cain.
Make yourself an ark of gopherwood...Noah complied; he did just as God had commanded him.
Then the LORD said to Noah: Go into the ark...Noah complied, just as the LORD had commanded.


God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
Any living creature that moves about shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants. Only meat with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.
Anyone who sheds the blood of a human being, by a human being shall that one’s blood be shed;
The LORD said to Abram: Go forth from your land, your relatives, and from your father’s house to a land that I will show you.... (and so on)

Abraham did what God commanded.

Adam broke the commandment of God by eating the forbidden fruit, meaning the Law existed even before eating the fruit.

Adam broke a command which was given to "him".

So, if sin was not imputed, why did God then destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

Because they were evil. Does God need a Law to judge evil?

 

[Frogster]

Yes, Abraham was saved by faith, and not works of the Law (Sabbath, circumcision etc). However, his faith was made complete by his works (love).



1. Love thy LORD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
2. Love thy neighbor.



Adam broke the commandment of God by eating the forbidden fruit, meaning the Law existed even before eating the fruit.



So, if sin was not imputed, why did God then destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

it wasn't THE LAW in the garden, paul said in rom 5;13, there was a time of no law, adam broke a verbal command, and the law did not come till 430 years after Abe, in gal 3;17. Paul copuld not use Abe as he did, to ward off law, if Abe had the law, the argument would fail.

 

[Frogster]

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

u may want to search works, and how they are connected to boasting, when men think they help God, raise themselves from the dead.

it says in rom 4:25, HE...HE.. was rasied for our justification, we did not raise ourselves.

 

[Frogster]

What do you mean when you say the Law did not exist during Abraham's time? That's surely a head-scratcher, because if what you say is true, then it would also automatically mean that sin did not exist when Abraham lived?

Sin= lawlessness (1 John 3:4 ).

it was the one act of adam, that sin and death spread to all, moses, david, hebrews, stephen, and Paul, all stress that the law came at sinai, with angels, it was not in the garden, citations ready, if u so desire.

read rom 5, all were condemend in adam anyway, so the judgement of sin prior to the law, hat it's validation, besides, the law came to just show all the nasty little things papa adam gave us, so we need not press it to much anyway, as far as legal imputation before the law, sin was imputed already.



5;18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Frogster]

So, are you saying the Law of God was not in existence during Abraham's time? Yes or No?

Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5



Here's is a simple question for you brother:

Why did the LORD destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Did Sodom break any Law?

u r pressing gen 26;5 too much, again, if Abe had the torah, paul could not say to cast out the torah pushers in gal 4, using Abe if Abe had the torah, and again, to much other text, proves it came at sinai, with angels.


Paul.
Galatians 3:19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Stephen.Acts 7:53you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”

Hebrews.
Hebrews 2:2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,


David
Psalms 68:17The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.


Moses
Deuteronomy 33:2He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them.

 

[Lion King]

Yes, his love for God. He obeyed God out of love.

correct.

Where are they listed in Genesis? We can see God's commands in Genesis some to all but also some to individuals such as Noah or Abraham or Lot..
Be fruitful and multiply.
Eat from any tree in the Garden, except the Tree of Knowledge.
You shall eat the grass of the field.
Do not kill Cain.
Make yourself an ark of gopherwood...Noah complied; he did just as God had commanded him.
Then the LORD said to Noah: Go into the ark...Noah complied, just as the LORD had commanded.


God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
Any living creature that moves about shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants. Only meat with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.
Anyone who sheds the blood of a human being, by a human being shall that one’s blood be shed;
The LORD said to Abram: Go forth from your land, your relatives, and from your father’s house to a land that I will show you.... (and so on)

Abraham did what God commanded.

They are not listed, but those TWO COMMANDS have been in existence since the creation of the world.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

Abraham is said to have found favour with the LORD because he faithfully obeyed the Law of God? What do you think the Law was? So how can anyone say the law of God didn't exist before Sinai, when Abraham KEPT God's law?


and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) 2 Peter 2:7-8

If they was no LAW as you claim before the Mosaic Law was given at Mt Sinai, why were the Sodomites said to be LAWLESS?

Adam broke a command which was given to "him".

He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Adam showed that he did not love the LORD, by eating the forbidden fruit.

Because they were evil. Does God need a Law to judge evil?

Remember what you said earlier?

Not according to Paul.
Roman 5
12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13. for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.


So, if sin was not imputed before the Mosaic Law came at Mt Sinai, why was Sodom found guilty for their sins? Now how could the men of Sodom be wicked and sinners if there was no law in place?

 

[Frogster]

correct.



They are not listed, but those TWO COMMANDS have been in existence since the creation of the world.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

Abraham is said to have found favour with the LORD because he faithfully obeyed the Law of God? What do you think the Law was? So how can anyone say the law of God didn't exist before Sinai, when Abraham KEPT God's law?


and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) 2 Peter 2:7-8

If they was no LAW as you claim before the Mosaic Law was given at Mt Sinai, why were the Sodomites said to be LAWLESS?



He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Adam showed that he did not love the LORD, by eating the forbidden fruit.



Remember what you said earlier?

Not according to Paul.
Roman 5
12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13. for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.


So, if sin was not imputed before the Mosaic Law came at Mt Sinai, why was Sodom found guilty for their sins? Now how could the men of Sodom be wicked and sinners if there was no law in place?

In place for whom? God can still judge, even over ignorance. No?

But it says there was a time of no law. All are and were under wrath from the one sin of Adam anyway.

Eph 2, Paul said we were by nature, objects of wrath, like the rest.

When does Paul stress the law coming? as you ignore what I posted about the angels, and the 5 people who stress sinai.

Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.