Soldiers and Thou Shalt Not Kill

[sorednax]

Where do you stand on this issue? Can a Godly man be a soldier, especially during a wartime? And how do you reconcile between the commandment, and his duty?

My personal take is "Thou Shall Not Kill" is a slight error in translation from the original meaning "Thou Shall Not Murder."

Murder and Killing are two different things. Murder is done for selfish reasons, like finding your spouse in bed with another, murder to collect insurance money/inheritance, etc.

Besides, killing is too vague. If we go by just the commandment alone, "Thou Shall Not Kill"....well, how do we do that? I mean, we can't eat animals anymore. So no slaughtering chickens, cows, fish, etc. The commandment doesn't say anything about "humans only"

But even vegetarians arent in the clear, because plants are living things too.

What if you accidentally step on a bug?

Your body, right now, is designed with anti-bodies that are killing viruses and bacteria, which are living organisms. So, even doing nothing, you're still killing.

So I definitely subscribe to "thou shall not murder". And soldiers doing their duty are not to blame themselves. (unless of course, they're killing without orders, committing war crimes, etc)

 

[someguy14]

Fight the battle of enforcing no lethal ways of handling threats. Rubber bullets. Spy tactics that encourage intelligence instead of violence. A non lethal way of summarizing a situation. An actual intelligence to reslove a situation instead of brute force. It is possible.
Turn the other cheek, defeating pride. Pride is an abomination. That is against worldy ways though.
God is always the best answer. A friend of the world, is an enemy of God.

 

[TheChristianSurvivalGuide]

Rubber bullets are not non-lethal, they are simply less-lethal. They can and do kill.

 

[sniperelite7]

Rubber bullets didn't stop Hitler.


Diplomacy didn't either.

 

[Harry3142]

The same Scripture that gave us, "Thou shalt not kill," also gave us this:

When the men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and with tambourines and lutes. As they danced, they sang:

"Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands." (I Samuel 18:6-7.NIV)

I have debated some who have argued that the commandment not to kill, as well as the admonition of Jesus Christ himself to "turn the other cheek", were both to be recognized as a condemnation of any and all soldiers, and even law enforcement personnel. However, we need to recognize that whenever Jesus taught his followers to behave in a certain manner, he was talking with fellow Jews. These people were firmly grounded in the laws and commandments of Torah, and saw those laws and commandments as necessary for them to follow in order to create a strong, cohesive society.

So with that as a foundation, we must then realize that Jesus at no point in time advocated the condonement of criminal activity through a refusal to combat it. Crime was still to be dealt with as the law of the land dictated. Other nations who chose to seek the conquest of their neighbors were also to be dealt with as the State determined.

Even St. Paul warned Christians of his day that they were not to disobey the authorities. In Romans 13:1-5, he stated that the governing authorities were to be given the respect that they deserved as governing authorities. Christians were to be careful to abide by the laws of the nations where they resided. And with these instructions he also gave them a warning:

For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4,NIV)

It is neither our right nor our privilege as Christians to tell the State how it will deal with wrongdoers, including other nations who choose to attack it in hopes of adding it to their possessions. But it is our responsibility to behave in such a manner so that those authorities, if they look in our direction, will see nothing worthy of punishment, but only words and deeds worthy of praise.

 

[ebia]

Up until Augustine the church pretty much unanimously agreed that being a soldier and being a christian were mutually incompatible.

 

[someguy14]

Be ye followers of Christ. Christ taught to love one another, help one another, guide all into understanding with God and God alone. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. All flesh is from Adam and Adam from God. Wicked intents and ideals are the enemy. If they take thy coat, give them your cloke also. Let us become poor in worldly things and rich in Gods ways. Put your trust in God, God will take care of it. Yes it is a risk as the rich man learns when he is told to sell all that he has and take up his cross and follow. This battle is so intense and truely tests a soul. Gird yourself with courage and join the battle, don't be afraid. Greed is not the purpose, God is the only purpose. All else is empty without God and God alone.

 

[wayseer]

My personal take is "Thou Shall Not Kill" is a slight error in translation from the original meaning "Thou Shall Not Murder."

Regardless of your personal 'take' Jesus made it pretty clear that even if one 'thinks' of killing they have carried out the act.

There is no wriggle room so stop trying.

 

[sorednax]

Regardless of your personal 'take' Jesus made it pretty clear that even if one 'thinks' of killing they have carried out the act.

There is no wriggle room so stop trying.

So by your account, I must have sinned. Last year we had to have our cat put to sleep. He was getting old.

Since "thou shall not kill" does not specifically refer to humans only, I suppose killing anything would be a sin.

I'm curious how you eat? Since foods are either animal and vegetable, both living things. They had to be killed for you to eat.

Come on now, if we're taking a fundamentalist approach to the passage, then there's no wiggle room for you either.

 

[ClairEuk73]

So by your account, I must have sinned. Last year we had to have our cat put to sleep. He was getting old.

Since "thou shall not kill" does not specifically refer to humans only, I suppose killing anything would be a sin.

I'm curious how you eat? Since foods are either animal and vegetable, both living things. They had to be killed for you to eat.

Come on now, if we're taking a fundamentalist approach to the passage, then there's no wiggle room for you either.

I'm sure Jesus didn't think we were so unintelligent as to need it to be clarified that he was talking about humans, neither did God when he gave out the Ten Commandments. To say that it should apply to vegetables is just silly.

 

[jpcedotal]

But even vegetarians aren't in the clear, because plants are living things too.

Biblical speaking, plants do not have "life". Life doesn't come along til the sea creatures.

 

[sorednax]

I'm sure Jesus didn't think we were so unintelligent as to need it to be clarified that he was talking about humans, neither did God when he gave out the Ten Commandments. To say that it should apply to vegetables is just silly.

It is silly. But no more silly than responding with a dismissive statement.

I found this article online, and pretty much sums up how I feel on this issue


Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13; “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

Recommended Resource: War: Four Christian Views by Robert G. Clouse.

 

[ClairEuk73]

Don't get me wrong, believe me, I have an interest in people's viewpoints on this, as my eldest son is a soldier. All I'm saying is that silly statements don't help people to take your point of view seriously

 

[wayseer]

So by your account, I must have sinned.

That's not my call.

Last year we had to have our cat put to sleep. He was getting old.

Jesus said something about getting a donkey out of a well but I can't recall him mentioning cats.

Since "thou shall not kill" does not specifically refer to humans only, I suppose killing anything would be a sin.

Again - it's your call. Don't put on others that which is your responsibility.

I'm curious how you eat? Since foods are either animal and vegetable, both living things. They had to be killed for you to eat.

Come on now, if we're taking a fundamentalist approach to the passage, then there's no wiggle room for you either.

Stop with the victim status - start thinking.

If you think it's OK to kill others then that is your decision. But if you have come here looking for a pat on the back count me out. This is a debate board so expect to be challenged.

 

[Theofane]

Rubber bullets didn't stop Hitler.


Diplomacy didn't either.

Examples of the Just War are few and far between, and I thank you for alluding to one of best examples of the 20th century.

 

[Harry3142]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9,NIV)

Note that the operative word in this verse is 'peacemaker', not 'peacekeeper'. A person can stay in his home, or even hide under his bed, and be called a peacekeeper. But that same person is not qualified to call himself a peacemaker. That title must be earned through a person's actions; in order to be called a peacemaker evidence of work done toward that end must be presented.

So what does this mean to those of us who live in a democratic society? It means that unless we actively participate in the kind of diplomacy that ensures a lasting peace, rather than simply capitulating to others until they demand so much of our society that we can no longer capitulate (Would you aquiesce to those who demand that you curse Christ and accept them as your 'god'?); unless we actively serve in a military that is designed specifically to enable our society's citizens to live in safety from those who see them only as prey animals to be taken at their leisure, and then either enslaved or slaughtered; unless we actively serve in law enforcement, seeing to it that criminals who would insist on our obeying their 'law' of "What is yours is mine to do with as I wish, and this includes your lives and those of your families"; or unless we actively evangelize, making an effort to teach others that they are to follow the path that God through Christ has laid out for all of us, we may not call ourselves peacemakers.

For us to accept, and even depend, on the help of those people who protect us and our families from the workings of others who have deliberately chosen to follow the path that leads to destruction, but at the same time condemn those same people for what they must do in order to accomplish their tasks, is the epitome of hypocrisy. As I said earlier in another message, our responsibility is to live our own lives in such a manner that when these people who have chosen to actively maintain the peace notice those actions they see only what would be approved of in any sane society. But those who have chosen to take no active role in their efforts to maintain for us a peaceful environment have neither the right nor the privilege of passing judgement on them for providing for us the very society that we depend on in order to rear our families securely.

 

[Theofane]

A Christian Soldier is a soldier of peace. Peace is more than simply avoiding violence or running away from it. Making peace is more than refusing to engage in violence. Peace has a positive quality to it. The Prayer of St. Francis runs thusly:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.


O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Where do you stand on this issue? Can a Godly man be a soldier, especially during a wartime? And how do you reconcile between the commandment, and his duty?

Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to get out of Rome's army if he was going to be a Christian. Soldiers saved Paul's life from the hands of his own people. There is no conflict in being a soldier and "You shall not murder."

 

[Theofane]

There is no conflict in being a soldier and "You shall not murder."

Do soldiers not murder? Are they not trained to kill?

 

[WinBySurrender]

Do soldiers not murder? Are they not trained to kill?

Which is why there is no conflict. God tells us to respect and obey the government, as God has established it.