the awaited messiah of the Jews

[cupid dave]

Maybe it is prophecy and you need to consider that; with all respect. Besides, we're near passover and I pray for a peaceful feast, in light of tomorrow's expected horde of foreign demonstrators expected to invade jerusalem.

Think of the Last Supper Seder and thge passing around of the Cup...

 

[LoAmmi]

I would not hold all the jews responsible for the change in the text done by a few rabbi of the 7th century. Christianity was taking hold by then and the Lord made the rabbi look bad. Is it possible they changed the two words?

In the 7th Century? Really? No, I am going to say it is not possible. With the Jews spread that far where would they have found this consensus to change it? How would they have changed copies in communities that were not told about this change? Why would the people have gone along with it?

 

[cupid dave]

NIV:

2 Through the praise of children and infants
you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.

Jewish translation:
3. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have established strength because of Your adversaries, in order to put an end to enemy and avenger.

I am not seeing that much of a difference to be honest.

You are basically saying that a very minor difference in the text was changed because of something that is not even much of a prophecy.



Let us look at everything:

2. O Lord, our Master, how mighty is Your name in all the earth, for which You should bestow Your majesty upon the heavens. 3. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have established strength because of Your adversaries, in order to put an end to enemy and avenger. 4. When I see Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and stars that You have established, 5. what is man that You should remember him, and the son of man that You should be mindful of him? 6. Yet You have made him slightly less than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and majesty. 7. You give him dominion over the work of Your hands; You have placed everything beneath his feet. 8. Flocks and cattle, all of them, and also the beasts of the field; 9. the birds of the sky and the fish of the sea, he traverses the ways of the seas.

Please show me how you know this is a messianic prophecy. Please show me why it would need to be changed? Even if it said exactly what you said, it would make zero difference.

2X...

 

[SanFrank]

And so this argument gets shoved aside in the self-defense of one's faith; never to be visited again but considered a fluke of history.

 

[LoAmmi]

And so this argument gets shoved aside in the self-defense of one's faith; never to be visited again but considered a fluke of history.

What argument? That for about 500 years the Jews were not bothered by this line and then suddenly decided to change it because of a tiny reference in one of the Gospels? The Gospels that the sages most likely did not read? Knowledge of the New Testament has not been a hallmark of the rabbis.

 

[SanFrank]

The Lord loves the Torah and fulfilled the law and is fulfilling the law.

Give israeli armed forces fleece jackets, I did... Israel Support Fund - Beta. Home

 

[Booko]

if your going to share things with me ...youll have to come down to my level of understanding....otherwise what you say flys over my head...the trust leaders thing well you lost me

OK, what did you not get so I can try again?

It's not like I trust all world leaders -- there's a lot of corruption out there. But the corruption is because people go after money and power and forget about people.

I thought you were trying to link the corruption with the fact someone was messing around with scriptural texts, and I did not understand that, if that's what you meant.

well if the original text exist...then we would know the truth without doubt....

Not really. Any text can be true and accurate, but people manage to mess up reading it anyway.

If that were not so, everyone would score 100% on reading comprehension tests in school, but they don't.

leaven is false doctrine...beware of the leaven of the pharasees ....beware of the doctrine.....the leaven is false doctrine....hid into the true word of God which is good meal....a meal with leaven rises...false doctrine causes the believe to rise up...puff up...pride ...but the meal without leaven is to be eaten ....good meal is meal without false doctrine....for leaven also represents sin

Um, ok, except that passage I quoted about the leaven specifically says it's talking about the Kingdom of God and not the Pharisees or false doctrine or sin?

Where do you see the connections to these other things?

 

[BruceDLimber]

I will write upon him my new name. (i.e.; Trinity)

Not so: the new name is that of a later Divine Messenger--nothing whatever to do with the trinity, which is largely a man-made doctrine in any case.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Booko]

I will keep that in mind. I always feel that if I ignore people it may be seen as an admission of defeat. I suppose I shall have to change that mindset.

I rarely ignore people, but on occasion it's useful, if only for a time. I have just so much time during the day. Spending it talking to no purpose is probably not the best use of my time. I try not to be hasty, because communication takes some time and effort.

Indeed. If someone wants to tell me that the Jewish interpretation of a verse or chapter is wrong, that is fine. I can work from there and try to support my interpretation. Saying we changed it seems like such an easy out for someone.

I don't know if I'm very good at it, but I try to phrase it as "I read it differently" rather than "your interpretation is wrong" because not being Omniscient myself, well...and besides it's hard to carry on a conversation with someone if I'm always telling them they're wrong.

Do people not understand it implies that the Jewish people know the truth of Jesus but are so corrupt as to hide it all these years? That is a level of evil that is almost unimaginable.

No, there are people who really do not understand the implications. I have met them, not just online, but in real life. I try not to appear gobsmacked.

But sometimes people believe something so strongly it's just hard for them to even conceive that there might just possibly be more than one way of looking at a thing. To them their belief about something is just so obviously true to them that they don't follow the line of thought on to what it implies. The fact that millions of sane people might have a different view doesn't mean anything about the possibility there might be another way of looking at something.

In my experience very very few of such people, if you can talk to them about it long enough, actually think Jews have done something so evil. When the realization finally sinks in, the people I've talked to have mostly been kind of appalled they didn't see it sooner.

I don't know if you've encountered this or not, but there's a common view among Muslims that the Bible texts have been altered. It's based on something Muhammad said "they have perverted the text." For a long time in Islam this has been understood to mean the Bible has been messed with and many Muslims still believe this. And it ends up being the same implication. But it's the common understanding they've been taught, so it must be true and there can't be other possible meanings.

The irony is that though Christians usually oppose Muslim suggestions about nefarious text editing and say there is no evidence, a very very few of them will turn right around and imply that Jews have done that same thing, with no thought that you might well take umbrage and that there is no evidence, and for the exact same reasons.

Just fyi, my own religion has an alternative understanding of what Muhammad meant by his statement and categorically denies the idea of wholesale editing of the Bible.

The reasons given in this passage are the same ones we've been advancing to suggest the idea of editing is not correct. It's not hard to see why. My husband trained in textual criticism, and as an agnostic he would've given the same reasons. So it isn't even a matter of religious belief about how God protects His Word or anything of that sort.

This is one of the instances that have been referred to. Verily by "perverting" the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)

 

[Booko]

Now, with a Torah scroll any imperfection meant that the scroll had to be redone. So, one could not simply change the words there. I suppose that is why most people avoid saying we changed the Torah.

In my experience very few non-Jews have any idea of the level of care that is used in making copies of the Torah.

Here's a little info for anyone interested:

Accuracy of The Torah Text | Bible

That's all there to prevent people messing up copies and introducing error in the texts. And given the manuscript evidence, it seems to be pretty effective too.

Not just that -- Christians have had their own copies of the Torah for the past 2000 years. Even if a Jew wanted to go edit the Torah sometime in the past 2000 years, um, good luck with that. You think the Vatican library will even let anyone in, much less give them an opportunity to mess with every manuscript of the Torah they have? Would Jews be allowed into Christian places like monasteries and have had access to do this?

Well, that would be a neat trick.

Even with a transporter from Star Trek to give you instant access to texts that are locked up and unavailable, you'd still have to have people who are excellent forgers and know multiple languages, because for nearly 2000 years the Torah has not existed only in Hebrew.

By now it's been translated into nearly everything, including Klingon and LOLcat...oh my I just Googled and sure enough someone wants to translate the Bible into elvish.

The time required to get to all these copies in all these languages and not have people notice their Bibles have gone missing or been replaced would be astronomical.

Now for fun and mental exercise I should go calculate (roughly speaking) whether the sun might go nova before such a task could be completed.

 

[Booko]

Here's what I meant about the common belief among Muslims that the texts of the Bible, both Jewish and Christian, have been messed with:

www.christianforums.com/t7642625-8/#post60141687

The thing is, I think the Qu'ran only makes the comment to Jews, so I've no idea where the idea that the Gospel had been messed with also comes from.

Seems a bad reading all around though.

(Sorry amorly, but if you want to chat about why I don't think it's likely the Torah and Gospel have been majorly edited by people who believe they're from God, I'm happy to any time.)

 

[SanFrank]

Israel is the only foothold freedom and democracy have in the middle east.

Why Are You Protesting Against Israel - YouTube

 

[dfw69]

You still cling to the idea that the messiah described by the prophets is evil.

no the messaih describe in the prophets it not evil.....i never said that....you must have misunderstood me....the messiah describe by the prophets is from god....

the messiah of the prophets is yahushua.....any messiah that comes before yahushua is false.......this is my stance.....and according to yahushua one or two will at least come ....before he returns......

 

[dfw69]

You still do not seem to understand. However, I read an analogy today that made perfect sense and I will share it.

Let us assume you and I are arguing about if a door is locked or not. We cannot convince each other and the argument rages on. Then somebody walks up and opens the door.

The door is unlocked and the argument stops because the issue has just become so clear that it cannot be understood any other way.

This is the messianic issue for us. Whichever one of us is right, it will be so obvious that the other side will have to admit they were wrong.

i do understand what your saying....basically your saying that if a messiah comes other than Jesus and fulfills all the messianic prophecies accurately he would then prove Jesus to be a false messiah.......i don't know if the next coming messiah will convince you that he is the true messiah.....what i know is that this next messiah Israel produces will be false

 

[LoAmmi]

i do understand what your saying....basically your saying that if a messiah comes other than Jesus and fulfills all the messianic prophecies accurately he would then prove Jesus to be a false messiah.......i don't know if the next coming messiah will convince you that he is the true messiah.....what i know is that this next messiah Israel produces will be false

What you believe, not what you know. Unless you are blessed with the gift of prophecy, you merely have beliefs about the future. Even prophets only had what they were told.

 

[dfw69]

Where exactly does Jesus say that it was a woman that altered scripture?

And how did anyone manage to pull that off and have variants not show up in other copies?

Or do you posit some magical ability to find every text around the Roman World and get hold of them all to change them or remove them so no one would notice these alterations?

Because that is how textual criticism works, and if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're suggesting is frankly, incredible.

If leaders of this world cannot be trusted, it has to do with the usual human forms of corruption and not something having to do with alteration of scriptures.

If your wanting me to prove my claim that a high power on earth has corrupted the bible that millions read every day.......i cannot.....the gospel does not point the finger at the wicked organization that has cause false doctrine to be spread over the world....it only makes aware that this took place.....mystery Babylon is her name....she is wealthy.....but in the last days....she will rise up for all the world to see....and when she thinks she is safe......those she seduced will suddenly rise up against her and she will come to an end...

 

[dfw69]

What you believe, not what you know. Unless you are blessed with the gift of prophecy, you merely have beliefs about the future. Even prophets only had what they were told.

yes...you know what i mean....

 

[LoAmmi]

yes...you know what i mean....

Not really. I have met plenty of people who "know" and will continue to insist they "know" but seem less than forthcoming about the digits to the upcoming MegaMillions drawing.

 

[cupid dave]

In my experience very few non-Jews have any idea of the level of care that is used in making copies of the Torah.

Here's a little info for anyone interested:

Accuracy of The Torah Text | Bible

That's all there to prevent people messing up copies and introducing error in the texts. And given the manuscript evidence, it seems to be pretty effective too.

Not just that -- Christians have had their own copies of the Torah for the past 2000 years. Even if a Jew wanted to go edit the Torah sometime in the past 2000 years, um, good luck with that. You think the Vatican library will even let anyone in, much less give them an opportunity to mess with every manuscript of the Torah they have? Would Jews be allowed into Christian places like monasteries and have had access to do this?

Well, that would be a neat trick.

Even with a transporter from Star Trek to give you instant access to texts that are locked up and unavailable, you'd still have to have people who are excellent forgers and know multiple languages, because for nearly 2000 years the Torah has not existed only in Hebrew.

By now it's been translated into nearly everything, including Klingon and LOLcat...oh my I just Googled and sure enough someone wants to translate the Bible into elvish.

The time required to get to all these copies in all these languages and not have people notice their Bibles have gone missing or been replaced would be astronomical.

Now for fun and mental exercise I should go calculate (roughly speaking) whether the sun might go nova before such a task could be completed.

Hmmm...

No exactly correct.

About 200 years before Jesus Hebrew as a language had virtually died out.
Aramaic was the spoken and written language in the Targums which were used to compile an Aramaic Bible by the time of Jesus.

The actual oldest Hebrew bible found today was "raised fom the dead" in the 12th century.
It was really an attempt to establish a Hebrew bible using the Old Testament which had been written in Greek around 340 BC, around the time of Alexander the Great.

Again, I refer you to the Interpretors Bible Encyclopedia which in the introduction explains that the Torah was canomnized @ 900BC, meaning that for 460 years aftwer Moses there was no physical Bible, but am oral method of passing on the information, using both the actual artifacts, themselves, like the Tabernacle, and the priestly rituals theselves together with a mnemonic use of the hands as a tool to note the facts in Genesis, for instance, by marking the seven double digits of the priestly hand and the four fingers each like the breastplate, with three phalanges on each, or twelve spaces.

Jesus revised this ancient Art as we can read in Matt 3:12... "the Fan in his Hand"...

 

[dfw69]

The Messiah is associated with an era of peace, not persecution.

Yes...but this next messiah is suppose to persecute by laws....and carried out by his followers....according to the new testament....he will seek to establish peace....and when they say peace and safety....then sudden destruction comes upon them