the awaited messiah of the Jews

[LoAmmi]

Evil men are in all religions....you said yourself there are extremist even in Judaism.....yes i believe persecution does from your messiah...but if you say no....then i hope your right...

For what you believe to come true, the extremists would need to outnumber the rest.

 

[dfw69]

For what you believe to come true, the extremists would need to outnumber the rest.

And a messiah can unite all....what he says goes....what happens to pagan heretics adultery fornicators blasphemous ect ? ...for he is king of the world

 

[LoAmmi]

And a messiah can unite all....what he says goes....what happens to pagan heretics adultery fornicators blasphemous ect ? ...for he is king of the world

You still cling to the idea that the messiah described by the prophets is evil.

 

[dfw69]

You still cling to the idea that the messiah described by the prophets is evil.

The messiah your waiting for sounds like Jesus.....and when Jesus comes he will heal in peace.....but Jesus said false messiahs shall come before he comes........any messiah that comes and is not Jesus will be false....we went through this already

 

[LoAmmi]

The messiah your waiting for sounds like Jesus.....and when Jesus comes he will heal in peace.....but Jesus said false messiah comeany messiah that comes and is not Jesus will be false....we went through this already

You still do not seem to understand. However, I read an analogy today that made perfect sense and I will share it.

Let us assume you and I are arguing about if a door is locked or not. We cannot convince each other and the argument rages on. Then somebody walks up and opens the door.

The door is unlocked and the argument stops because the issue has just become so clear that it cannot be understood any other way.

This is the messianic issue for us. Whichever one of us is right, it will be so obvious that the other side will have to admit they were wrong.

 

[Booko]

I am tired of the Jews always being evil. So very tired. I am not sure I can take this place much longer for hearing it or allusions to it.

It's only coming from a few people, LoAmmi. Please use the ignore list the rest of us would like to talk with you.

Obviously we would rape our own scripture to hide things. Naturally. We would also cover it up for years and years to hide what we know is the truth. I mean, that makes total sense.

Yeah, others get the treatment of "you really know the truth you're just rebelling against God for reading text X different" but it's not the same as people claiming we wrecked our own texts too. That's completely absurd.

 

[dfw69]

You still do not seem to understand. However, I read an analogy today that made perfect sense and I will share it.

Let us assume you and I are arguing about if a door is locked or not. We cannot convince each other and the argument rages on. Then somebody walks up and opens the door.

The door is unlocked and the argument stops because the issue has just become so clear that it cannot be understood any other way.

This is the messianic issue for us. Whichever one of us is right, it will be so obvious that the other side will have to admit they were wrong.

or that the messiah you seek and the messiah i seek is the same....niether was wrong

 

[LoAmmi]

or that the messiah you seek and the messiah i seek is the same....niether was wrong

I have always left that as a possibility.

 

[Booko]

I don't think Jews are evil....but all im saying is that i believe scripture was altered......someone did it.....Jesus only says that it was a woman......implying religion or nation.....personally i don't know...but leaders of this world cannot be trusted

Where exactly does Jesus say that it was a woman that altered scripture?

And how did anyone manage to pull that off and have variants not show up in other copies?

Or do you posit some magical ability to find every text around the Roman World and get hold of them all to change them or remove them so no one would notice these alterations?

Because that is how textual criticism works, and if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're suggesting is frankly, incredible.

If leaders of this world cannot be trusted, it has to do with the usual human forms of corruption and not something having to do with alteration of scriptures.

 

[dfw69]

I have always left that as a possibility.

and i still remember ....but let us continue with other issues if you dont mind... for i still would like to know more about judaism and your full description of the messiah awaited by the jews.... let us walk in peace....though we sometimes disagree

 

[Booko]

Evil men are in all religions....you said yourself there are extremist even in Judaism.....yes i believe persecution does come from your messiah...but if you say no....then i hope your right...

The Messiah is associated with an era of peace, not persecution.

 

[LoAmmi]

and i still remmber ....but let us continue with other issues if you dont mind... for i still would like to know more about judaism and your full description of the messiah awaited by the jews.... let us walk in peace....though we sometimes disagree

What would you like to know?

 

[dfw69]

Where exactly does Jesus say that it was a woman that altered scripture?

And how did anyone manage to pull that off and have variants not show up in other copies?

Or do you posit some magical ability to find every text around the Roman World and get hold of them all to change them or remove them so no one would notice these alterations?

Because that is how textual criticism works, and if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're suggesting is frankly, incredible.

If leaders of this world cannot be trusted, it has to do with the usual human forms of corruption and not something having to do with alteration of scriptures.

a woman hid leaven in 3 measures of meal....parable

all that was needed to be altered is the original copy....where is the original copy?

so you trust the leaders of this world?...i dont

 

[dfw69]

What would you like to know?

you just answered my question.....that we will continue discussions ...i want your friendship

but i want to know many things.....i will not start a new topic today...its late...but to know that you are still there ....well im glad....peace

 

[Booko]

a woman hid leaven in 3 measures of meal....parable

This one:

Luke 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

What does this have to do with anyone changing a text?

If the leaven is something like the spirit and you put it in the meal, it doesn't look like you did anything initially, but eventually the leaven grows and the meal gets bigger. And so is the Kingdom of God -- you plant the seed and it may not be obvious right away, but eventually it shows.

Which I'm sure there are other perfectly good readings, but editing a scripture does not seem to be one of them.

all that was needed to be altered is the original copy....where is the original copy?

Seriously, you really do need to learn more about textual criticism. It's hardly a big deal if an original cannot be found for a text this old. That doens't mean anyone messed with it, and it's precisely though comparing manuscripts and variants you can judge whether a text is reliable or not.

so you trust the leaders of this world?...i dont

Where did I say I trust the leaders of the world?

I said if there was corruption is was the perfectly human variety and that it had nothing to do with altering any text. It's just garden variety greed and hunger for power.

One need not rely on religious theories or conspiracy theories to explain such things.

 

[dfw69]

if your going to share things with me ...youll have to come down to my level of understanding....otherwise what you say flys over my head...the trust leaders thing well you lost me

well if the original text exist...then we would know the truth without doubt....

leaven is false doctrine...beware of the leaven of the pharasees ....beware of the doctrine.....the leaven is false doctrine....hid into the true word of God which is good meal....a meal with leaven rises...false doctrine causes the believe to rise up...puff up...pride ...but the meal without leaven is to be eaten ....good meal is meal without false doctrine....for leaven also represents sin

 

[LoAmmi]

It's only coming from a few people, LoAmmi. Please use the ignore list the rest of us would like to talk with you.

I will keep that in mind. I always feel that if I ignore people it may be seen as an admission of defeat. I suppose I shall have to change that mindset.

Yeah, others get the treatment of "you really know the truth you're just rebelling against God for reading text X different" but it's not the same as people claiming we wrecked our own texts too. That's completely absurd.

Indeed. If someone wants to tell me that the Jewish interpretation of a verse or chapter is wrong, that is fine. I can work from there and try to support my interpretation. Saying we changed it seems like such an easy out for someone. Do people not understand it implies that the Jewish people know the truth of Jesus but are so corrupt as to hide it all these years? That is a level of evil that is almost unimaginable.

 

[LoAmmi]

well if the original text exist...then we would know the truth without doubt....

Let us imagine I wanted to change the text of the New Testament today. How difficult would it be? Could I simply go grab the "original" and change it?

Imagine going back to that point in time, where there are hundreds of handmade copies floating around. Now, with a Torah scroll any imperfection meant that the scroll had to be redone. So, one could not simply change the words there. I suppose that is why most people avoid saying we changed the Torah.

To the Prophets, there would still be multiple scrolls floating around. Copies were made of copies. There was no way every copy would have been made at some central processing location. In order to change the text someone would have had to have collected and destroyed all the copies and then distributed new ones. Without a printing press.

leaven is false doctrine...beware of the leaven of the pharasees ....beware of the doctrine.....the leaven is false doctrine....hid into the true word of God which is good meal....a meal with leaven rises...false doctrine causes the believe to rise up...puff up...pride ...but the meal without leaven is to be eaten ....good meal is meal without false doctrine....for leaven also represents sin

Do you know what leaven is? Just for curiosity's sake.

I see little in our literature that is about being prideful. In fact, much of it has to do with being humble before HaShem. That was Hosea's saying to us.

 

[cupid dave]

So Cupid Dave:

Just for kicks I checked the URLs of some other graphics you've been posting:

http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Adamcain.jpg

http://kofh2u.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/threeraces.jpg

It's the same...hrm..."religious" or is that "scientific" site, so please don't waste everyone's time trying to play innocent pretending like you really got that graphic out of a 1932 zoology textbook.

.

LOL

Of course the Graphic Organizer came from that site, but I was referring to the content of the facts which came from the College Textbook shown as the source oif the information.

Hahaaaaaaa...

You are a funny guy, indeeed.

The Facts are merely arranged in a visual graphic so as the appeal to te Whole Brain, both Right and Left Hemispheres.

Do you still contend that the information on this chart is wrong?
That is the point of sourcing tge facts.

 

[SanFrank]

I will keep that in mind. I always feel that if I ignore people it may be seen as an admission of defeat. I suppose I shall have to change that mindset.

The truth is freedom.

Indeed. If someone wants to tell me that the Jewish interpretation of a verse or chapter is wrong, that is fine. I can work from there and try to support my interpretation. Saying we changed it seems like such an easy out for someone. Do people not understand it implies that the Jewish people know the truth of Jesus but are so corrupt as to hide it all these years? That is a level of evil that is almost unimaginable.

I would not hold all the jews responsible for the change in the text done by a few rabbi of the 7th century. Christianity was taking hold by then and the Lord made the rabbi look bad. Is it possible they changed the two words?

Let us imagine I wanted to change the text of the New Testament today. How difficult would it be? Could I simply go grab the "original" and change it?

True. Was the masoretic text amongst hundreds of other hebrew copies? In the 7th century, the Jews were scattered, the samaritans had a older copy and there were works in Aramaic and greek (the codices). The MT was a work in Hebrew however.

The verse ps 8.2 is missing from the fragmentary dead sea scrolls.

Imagine going back to that point in time, where there are hundreds of handmade copies floating around. Now, with a Torah scroll any imperfection meant that the scroll had to be redone. So, one could not simply change the words there. I suppose that is why most people avoid saying we changed the Torah.

To the Prophets, there would still be multiple scrolls floating around. Copies were made of copies. There was no way every copy would have been made at some central processing location. In order to change the text someone would have had to have collected and destroyed all the copies and then distributed new ones. Without a printing press.

Again, in the 7th century, I don't know how many original hebrew copies survived. I only assume the MT is authoritative today because no others have been found to be complete.