Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

Ok, probably all things Torah...

 

[Avodat]

Ok, probably all things Torah...

Just trying to work within the very loose definitions in the OP!

 

[Qnts2]

Ok, probably all things Torah...

Oh dear.

That would eliminate a lot of discussions done by Messianic Jewish people.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

 

[Yahudim]

Just trying to work within the very loose definitions in the OP!

I know Av, just trying to introduce a little levity. I am so happy about the resolution to these matters as posted by Tishri, Pam, et. al, that I'm a little giddy.

Blessings to All,

 

[Lulav]

Oh dear.

That would eliminate a lot of discussions done by Messianic Jewish people.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Yes, I agree. I don't think saying no debating the Torah as that is what we live for, there is always more to learn and glean from those words.

I think it should be worded somethiung like this. Messianic Judaism honors the Torah (the instructions of G-d). Debate is allowed among members that believe that although keeping the Torah is not for salvation, it is something that both some Jews and Gentiles choose to follow out of love and respect for G-d. We do not believe that Yeshua/Jesus did away with any part of it but (Matt 5:18), but believe that he completed the payment required for disobeying it.

 

[anisavta]

Lulav check your PM box.

 

[Avodat]

There is an enormous difference between debating Torah as such (ie the content of the teaching) and debating who can or cannot, or who should, or should not, make it central to their lives, or what degree of adherence is acceptable to call ones self a Messianic. This seems to be what the OP is getting at.

 

[anisavta]

Pretty good questions really. You should start a thread. But I think he is talking about the ever-present 'Grace vs. Torah observance' debate.

I don't think the debate itself is the issue as much as the approach to debate. It's one thing to state your opinion and allow for a counter opinion, but to debate with the idea that one's way is the "right" way is not productive especially about Torah. We've had too much labeling as of late. If you believe this way (because I know those who believe this way even if you might not ...) then you are a __________. And, no one here can and should decide for the rest how we are to believe, what our titles should be or the names of our forums should be.
We're all just a bunch of Jews and Gentiles with lots of opinions and that should be our banner. And even if we've written a doctoral paper, or treatise or are president of 10 clubs, our posts are still only opinion.

 

[Lulav]

There is an enormous difference between debating Torah as such (ie the content of the teaching) and debating who can or cannot, or who should, or should not, make it central to their lives, or what degree of adherence is acceptable to call ones self a Messianic. This seems to be what the OP is getting at.

Yes, that should be included that there will be no debate as to who is 'allowed' to keep Torah, it should be up to the individual.

As in Jeremiah 31 it explains that each will die for their own sins, so we are each responsible for what we do. As Yeshua said, if we believe in Him we will be in the kingdom but if we teach others to not keep the commandments, even the least of them we will be the least in the kingdom.

------Tishri, I have to go out for the day but will be back tonight. Please don't close the thread too soon. Remember some are busy getting ready for Shabbat and this thread wasn't reopened until the wee hours on the East coast as well as we have members around the world .

Shabbat Shalom to all!

 

[anisavta]

That's true Lulav. This is erev Shabbat and some of us close down sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
Shabbat shalom!

 

[aniello]

There is an enormous difference between debating Torah as such (ie the content of the teaching) and debating who can or cannot, or who should, or should not, make it central to their lives, or what degree of adherence is acceptable to call ones self a Messianic. This seems to be what the OP is getting at.

Very true, I think.

Without starting a derail here, hopefully, should there be a separate slot for discussions regarding the above underlined?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Very true, I think.

Without starting a derail here, hopefully, should there be a separate slot for discussions regarding the above underlined?

No cause that's not the position of this forum.

 

[DarylFawcett]

Subscribing and responding to this post.

There was once a forum that consisted of Seventh-day Adventists of both the Traditional Adventists, that were in line with the official 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church, and the Progressive Adventists that were in conflict with many of those same fundamental beliefs. There were so many problems there that some, but not all, of the members wanted to split the forum from a forum that contained both groups to a separate forum for each group.

The idea of splitting the forum, which I think was then known as the Seventh-day Adventist forum, was a heated one that went one way one moment and then the other way the next moment.

We had numerous threads and polls before finally deciding to split up the Seventh-day Adeventist forum into two main and separate forums, namely the Traditional Adventists and the Progressive Adventists with their own sub-forums.

The problem is that this didn't really solve the problem and the problem continued in those split forums.

Here is a link to one of our threads/polls where it was voted not to split:

Poll: Should the SDA Forum Be Split? (

1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

As you can see in that thread, we decided to create a Traditional Adventists sub-forum and a Progressive Adventists sub-forum of the then main Seventh-day Adventists forum, which eventually led to the splitting of those two into two main and separate forums with their own sub-forums.

But first, there was a thread/POLL on removing those two sub-forums:

Poll: Sub-forums (fora) time to revisit? (

1 2 3)

Pay attention to the wording in the OP of that thread.

Then there is this thread w/o any poll:

Separate forums? (

1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

Ran out of time. Will post this much now and more later, but suffice to say, the actual splitting of the one forum into two separate ones didn't end the problem.

Shalom to you too, David;

The answer seems to be the one most resisted. Make a forum for Hebrew Christians. Not that there aren't Messianics of Jewish descent. There are. They belong here. But those Christians of Jewish descent (determined by their professed beliefs) should have their own forum OR should choose the Christian denomination that most closely aligns with their beliefs. Seems simple.

Bridge building is something that is done between groups with doctrinal differences, not usually considered within a faith group. That's how I understand it anyway. We wouldn't need to consider it in this context if things were a little different.

Blessings,

 

[Qnts2]

There is an enormous difference between debating Torah as such (ie the content of the teaching) and debating who can or cannot, or who should, or should not, make it central to their lives, or what degree of adherence is acceptable to call ones self a Messianic. This seems to be what the OP is getting at.

Yup, I agree.

But since Messianic Judaism is about Yeshua, I don't weigh either the NT or the Torah as more central then the other. They are equal weight, and indivisible. They are all one book.

So, the Torah is important to all Messianics.

And as far as degree of adherence, that is not the factor which decides who is a Messianic and who isn't. All who are a part of Messianic Judaism, are Messianics. Messianic Judaism has a definition of who is a part of it. To vary from that definition is not a good idea.

 

[Qnts2]

Yes, that should be included that there will be no debate as to who is 'allowed' to keep Torah, it should be up to the individual.

Shabbat Shalom to all!

Yup, I phrase it that all should be allowed to choose, but I think that is that same thing you are saying. It is up to the individual. I view it as a calling.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yup, I phrase it that all should be allowed to choose, but I think that is that same thing you are saying. It is up to the individual. I view it as a calling.

And as per the rules no one is to try to diminish or sabotage if someone is called.

Right?

 

[Qnts2]

And as per the rules no one is to try to diminish or sabotage if someone is called.

Right?

Absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yup, I agree.

But since Messianic Judaism is about Yeshua, I don't weigh either the NT or the Torah as more central then the other. They are equal weight, and indivisible. They are all one book.

So, the Torah is important to all Messianics.

And as far as degree of adherence, that is not the factor which decides who is a Messianic and who isn't. All who are a part of Messianic Judaism, are Messianics. Messianic Judaism has a definition of who is a part of it. To vary from that definition is not a good idea.

This is the way I view it; Yeshua centered, Jewish focus.

 

[anisavta]

For both Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile - yes?

 

[DarylFawcett]

From the experience I had in the now still divided SDA forums, I know how you feel, as we went through similar struggles there.

A post that I just read there reminded me of this thread here. Here is the quote of that post below:

As always there is always those who feel we cannot stay and discuss honestly and openly with each other and gain understanding and must label our brothers and sisters to divide us. But I disagree for the following reasons.

1) Iron sharpens iron- We need to see both sides of a issue in order to focus on what the issues are and come to a decision, hopefully with much prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

2) We must learn to love- It is easy to love those that care and love us, but true love learns to love no matter what the other person thinks of us or feels toward us.

3) Learning to live as brothers/sisters- How can we expect to live in Gods kingdom if we let ourselves be irratated by even the smallest little quirk or peculiar personality or traits of a brother.

4) Saving our brothers/sisters- If we are following the true path to eternal life, we must reach out to our brothers with all the love in our heart that God has given us and pull them with us as best as we can so we can both be saved, and so we must stay together and love one another...

5) Finally it would break my heart to see my brothers and sisters seperate, as I have experienced it and nothing wounds worse than evil coming between what blood unites....

God bless us and bring us to hear and keep His Word..
Red

Luke 11:28
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Unfortunately, that didn't keep the SDA forum from being split into two forums. They didn't listen there, however, I hope you won't make the same mistake here.