Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

Shalom Brothers and Sisters. How are you today?

Blessed brother, blessed. I pray that you are too.

 

[Yahudim]

We Jews like to rock the boat. I definately think it's perception too. We are online in a forum and lots can get mixed up or mis perceived.

I should be the first to agree!

 

[Chaplain David]

Absolutely great advice! Thanks Pam, and also let's get back to the op, does everyone get what we are trying to fix in here, maybe someone could summaries the op in your own words?

I asked a similar question yesterday and got a couple of little nibbles but the majority didn't answer so it's hard to get a sense for things. Why not let's give some feedback on Tish's question?

It'll help us see how we are doing better and provide good feedback to staff and members. I'll just bold and underline it above.

Shalom, David

I'm going to close the thread for supper. I want to remind all members that this is where we are (unless one of the staff decides to go in a different direction for a while) and we're waiting for feedback from you about the question above. If you have some time please think on Tish's question and then when we reopen we'd appreciate some responses. Thanks and Shalom.

 

[Tishri1]

You did great with that explanation Pam!

no problem.

i went back to find my original post #542, page 55. and from the last 2 paragraphs, this was my question:



to my mind the word Torah encompases not only the first 5 books of the OT but also anything that would be traditionally looked upon as requirements or wisdom needed in the Jewish life that is passed down either from the patriarchs, Rabbi's, or schools.
I realize that MJ's have different words for each area, but as i'm not familiar with those words, (and many staff aren't either) i thought it better to have a single word that encompases all of them, if that is possible.

i didn't say Torah should be worshiped because it is only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are due worship. but i would think that Torah certainly is as important to MJ's both as the word of G-D and as wisdom, every day guidance, history, celebrations, etc. as the bible (OT & NT) is to Christians, and for the same reasons.

now if there are other words that need to be substituted, or if anyone can think of a better way to incorporate the idea of the place that Torah holds in the lives of MJ's, then please make a suggestion.

 

[Tishri1]

Whoo Hoo! There is a celebration in the heavenlies right now! Thank you!

Can I join in, Tal your a most awesome GentleMan

I promise folks I'm almost done the thread will open momentarily

 

[Tishri1]

I agree, his points miss the boat on many levels, not just in the details, to name a few..

1) The Brother marrying another brother's wife, lol, first of all, the Torah allows the brother to no do so, and also, to say that Messianics do not practice this also made me laugh, how many opportunities or chances will Messianics have to do this? Not many.

2) He never mentions Tzitzit, and quite a few others that come off the top of my head.

3) He says most MTP, do not sleep in Sukkah's for 7 days, ummmm, the only MTP that I know of that do not, have either a medical condition, are elderly or some other problem... I have done this with many others for many years.

4) He brought up how most work on the Holy days, lol, again I don't know these 'most' people, I know more people who said they are not going to work, and that they can fire them if they want, and were not fired.

5) Me and my wife went through and cleaned out our closets full of mixed wool and linen, and purchase clothing with those guidelines, and I know a bunch of other families that do as well.

His arguments are weak, and do not go through all the applicable laws. And ultimately miss the point, this is not a comparison to see who is better and who does more, I could probably come up with a list that show a 10% to 15% difference, but that is not what makes me and others Torah observant... It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.

On the other hand, I admire his seeking of unity, and I am for that, so I credit him for doing such and I do hope there can be some form of unity, even among all the disagreements.

amen I hope so too

 

[Tishri1]

In his defense he said MOST Torah positive. If he would have mentioned tefflin would that have made a difference. You criticized the guy and everyone criticized Tishri for posting a video that is exact.

So the audio was more eloquent? What's the deal here? The video he says we are not under the law but in the audio he says people that say that do so anyway because of the greatest commandment?

In defense of Tishri she deserves an apology seriously.

That's ok I'm just glad to know I wasn't going nuts...thanks to Ani who still had the link from our conference

 

[Tishri1]

from etZion:

now that's what i'm talkin' about. (or in other famous words, 'it's not a religion, it's a relationship')

I think we got ourselves an honorary member here

 

[Tishri1]

Excellent excellent post!!!!

In response to the perception that “Christian” some how seems to be used as kind of a second class state:
At the risk of bringing up something that may be seen as divisive, as the dust finally seems to be settling, may I point out that neither Christianity or Judaism is free of error?

Both are manmade systems that spring from people's interpretations of Scripture.

Judaism is not today what it was in Yeshua's time

Christianity today is not what it was in the first century either.

The "Messianic" perception that something is wrong with Christianity I do not think has anything to do with heritage or being second class
The "Christian" perception that there is something wrong with Messianics does not have to do with heritage or being second class either.

Gentile believers have been treated as "second class" by Jewish Believers, but not in all cases and all times.
Jews have been disgracefully treated over the centuries by those who call themselves Christians, and in the Name of Christ, but some of those same "Christians" of various stripes have defended Jews to the death, too.

One does not justify the other.

I see that it often has to do with the maturity of all involved and how well they are able to wisely handle differences.

Rather than being primarily concerned with offense to a people group, one way or the other, it has seemed to me that primary concern needs to be our efforts to be obedient to what the Word teaches, the entire Word

You say that you know Christianity is in no way incomplete.

I think most Jewish people would say the same about Judaism.

Yet those who come to Messiah are sometimes called “completed Jews” or born anew!

Being born from above or born anew is a very Jewish concept!

It would be impossible to deny that Christians think Jews need to be made complete in Messiah.

In some cases, to be “Christianized” yet the more I have learned, the more I think it has to do with becoming part of the family, and those who are adopted INTO a family don’t get to determine the ways of that family.

The Head of it, our Elohim does

I do think it has more to do with the understanding of what it means today to have a golden calf and in man’s often less than humble opinion, decide that it is an honor to the God of Israel.

Some of the practices that the "Christian" church as a whole have adopted are not to be found anywhere in Scripture, except among the things that His people are told NOT to do.

Some of the practices that the various aspects of “Judaism” practice are not to be found anywhere in Scripture except among the things that His people are told NOT to do

Do we believe that there are two ways to walk in righteousness:
a righteous Jewish walk?
a righteous Christian walk?

and further subdividing this: a righteous Christian walk
a righteous Messianic walk

As far as I can see, the Word describes His way of righteousness, whatever we were before.
His way of righteousness. Though we have been divided, the ultimate goal is His one way.

None of us will be complete until we are complete in Messiah at His return

And if people don't understand what a golden calf of today looks like, does that mean they are not "held accountable" by our Elohim? I don't think Scripture indicates that. Leaders are responsible to teach correctly, but people are to be searching the Word, too.

Aaron didn’t cover the people then. Later Saul didn’t cover the people. How many leaders today are not covering the people?

There definitely are places of unity in understanding for People of the Book, whether Jewish or Christian, certainly we are more in unity than with those of Buddhism or Islam (yet they consider themselves People of the Book, too

Yet, there are also practices that our Elohim determined are within the scope of walking in His ways, and those that are outside it.

He is the same from age to age. His Word stands…not our opinions.

This forum thread will not determine final understanding for all, but it is one place of discussion.

If there is any question of being “incomplete” or “second class” I think it will have to reside in the Word, fully digested, from beginning to end.

If one doesn’t have familiarity with the foundation, how will they have complete understanding? If one doesn’t have familiarity with Yeshua’s life and teachings, how will they have complete understanding?

It isn't our personal judgment to make, but ours to be good Bereans and study the Whole Word.

 

[Tishri1]

in short, tonight I asked the small team of staff who are myself, David our chaplain, mark, Pam and also Ed who you all meet when you come to the MSC to moderate this forum for a while. We are all here reading this thread and we will be the only ones handling your reports for a while and also if anyone would like Ed and I to review your staff actions in the MSC please come in there and start a thread and ask for us, we would be happy to reverse any that were not done correctly

Just a second reminder of what we will be doing for the next few weeks for this forum

 

[Tishri1]

And just add Ed to the mix too he will meet anyone in MSC with me to review staff actions incurred during this very stressful time for MJ..I understand some grace may be needed as times have been hard all around

And this

 

[Tishri1]

Very good post there!

Any time I hear a (would be) Christian try to down play the Torah, I quote one verse from Yeshua, and it has yet to fail me in my defense of the Torah.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I then postulate for my intended audience,Yeshua is saying, if you do not believe the Torah, then you only think you believe his words.

Because I'm not partial to images, I really never paid any attention to the icons in the CF forums, but I must admit when I zoomed in and saw MY scroll flying (that's right I'm claiming!), I was very pleased, for the scroll is my primary reason for considering myself to be a Hebrew Christian in the first place.

For like Daniel, my people too were taken from their land, because of their disobedience to YHWH, and like Daniel, our captives also were a people who exercised world domination, and like Daniel I too refuse to eat (rely on) the Kings meat, the meat of the king James that is, I choose the original diet prescribed by YHWH.

Remember how Yeshua said, 'Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (anointed); and shall deceive many.

Well? many have not come claiming to be Yeshua HaMassiach, nor has any such person deceived any, let alone many, however many have come claiming to be anointed i.e., Christian/Messianic, and historically many have been deceived by those who misrepresent their anointing.

Paul postulates, that those who boast in being a member of a denomination, give in to jealousy, or are inclined to argue, that they are carnal, and not spiritual beings, and that their understanding of the scriptures is likewise carnal, and not spiritual, why then would anyone try to make such a boast, do not they know, they are naked before us who believe paul and act/conform accordingly.

Our Judaic brothers and sisters do better in this matter than us so called anointed ones, for they agree to disagree, yet they do not multiply denominations which promotes divisions, as we have been known to do.

Even a true non denominationalist has to post his views in the general theology forum, because the non denomination forum has one interpretative rule too many, thus making it like a denomination.

We should all strive to be Mature, Sober, and Alert, for with such, I have yet to find err.

The one thing that makes us all equal, is that we all have the ability to please, or displease our Maker.

 

[Tishri1]

Praying for Visionary and everyone in the area of the tornado outbreak. Also, praying for Yedida.

Thank you for the reminder to pray

 

[Tishri1]

I asked a similar question yesterday and got a couple of little nibbles but the majority didn't answer so it's hard to get a sense for things. Why not let's give some feedback on Tish's question?

It'll help us see how we are doing better and provide good feedback to staff and members. I'll just bold and underline it above.

Shalom, David

Lol they can when I reopen this thread

 

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT
I'm finally done.

I would like to ask everyone to forgive my harshness, I can only say it seemed nessessary in order to keep the intentions of this forum in front of us.

Please know my intentions are to have everyone feel accepted, although I know it's impossible to please all, I do still wish to have all feel they are not going to be expelled because they can't believe everything the main group believes.

So I just saw that my battery is almost gone in this iPad lol I may have to let it charge a bit and continue.........

Give me ten minutes k?

Sorry Guys I fell asleep
ok so bottom line I need to be assured that you all know what the OP means. and I need us to stick to the op now ok?

Opening discussion for final comments on the op, please tell us in your own words what you think the OP is saying

 

[Tishri1]

here is the OP again ...

Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

 

[Avodat]

Subscribing

Torah shouldn't be debated on this forum. If people took these debates to where they should be, there would not be the problems of argument etc on this forum in that regard. The answer is simple - no Torah debate allowed outside of the 'Anything Torah!' forum. If the Mods enforce it rigidly instead of ignoring it, or even joining in, the OP would be redundant.

End of. Job done. Problem solved.

 

[Yahudim]

Subscribing

Torah shouldn't be debated on this forum. If people took these debates to where they should be, there would not be the problems of argument etc on this forum in that regard. The answer is simple - no Torah debate allowed outside of the 'Anything Torah!' forum. If the Mods enforce it rigidly instead of ignoring it, or even joining in, the OP would be redundant.

End of. Job done. Problem solved.

Can we beat 'em with sticks?

 

[Qnts2]

Subscribing

Torah shouldn't be debated on this forum. If people took these debates to where they should be, there would not be the problems of argument etc on this forum in that regard. The answer is simple - no Torah debate allowed outside of the 'Anything Torah!' forum. If the Mods enforce it rigidly instead of ignoring it, or even joining in, the OP would be redundant.

End of. Job done. Problem solved.

I still don't get it.

By Torah debate, what is meant.

1. Debates about what is written in the Torah? Like does Genesis 3:15 refer to the Messiah? Or is the Ezekiel Temple literal?
2. Debates on how to keep the law?
3. Debates on who is required to keep the law?
4. Debates on Passover, practice, meaning, and how does the commands of Jesus making it in memory of Him alter Passover?

 

[Yahudim]

I still don't get it.

By Torah debate, what is meant.

1. Debates about what is written in the Torah? Like does Genesis 3:15 refer to the Messiah? Or is the Ezekiel Temple literal?
2. Debates on how to keep the law?
3. Debates on who is required to keep the law?
4. Debates on Passover, practice, meaning, and how does the commands of Jesus making it in memory of Him alter Passover?

Pretty good questions really. You should start a thread. But I think he is talking about the ever-present 'Grace vs. Torah observance' debate.