Staff and Member discussion thread.

[anisavta]

Again - the Community like the Jewish community? If that's your question then yes - always. Long story. Short answer - I've been missing that community since I could remember growing up. Even as a Christian my heart was always drawn toward Jewish things, places, people etc. That what you mean?

 

[jcpro]

Again - the Community like the Jewish community? If that's your question then yes - always. Long story. Short answer - I've been missing that community since I could remember growing up. Even as a Christian my heart was always drawn toward Jewish things, places, people etc. That what you mean?

when we say "community" it only means one thing- the Jewish community. Why have you not joined?

 

[anisavta]

I have. I'm part of the Jewish Federation.

 

[jcpro]

I have. I'm part of the Jewish Federation.

That's cool. I grew up in an atheist home and when I decided to look for religion I went straight to Judaism as advertised by my Hasidic grandparents. I just could not separate religion from the people. Christianity does not have a good rep among us, do you hang out with observant Jews? Can you relate to them?

 

[Qnts2]

no problem.

i went back to find my original post #542, page 55. and from the last 2 paragraphs, this was my question:



to my mind the word Torah encompases not only the first 5 books of the OT but also anything that would be traditionally looked upon as requirements or wisdom needed in the Jewish life that is passed down either from the patriarchs, Rabbi's, or schools.
I realize that MJ's have different words for each area, but as i'm not familiar with those words, (and many staff aren't either) i thought it better to have a single word that encompases all of them, if that is possible.

i didn't say Torah should be worshiped because it is only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are due worship. but i would think that Torah certainly is as important to MJ's both as the word of G-D and as wisdom, every day guidance, history, celebrations, etc. as the bible (OT & NT) is to Christians, and for the same reasons.

now if there are other words that need to be substituted, or if anyone can think of a better way to incorporate the idea of the place that Torah holds in the lives of MJ's, then please make a suggestion.

Ok, I got confused by your comments about the Talmud.

From you original statement:

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.

what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?

In many ways, Messianic Judaism is not different than Christianity. In some ways it is.

I am a follower of Yeshua the Messiah. The three main books of Judaism, the Torah, Neviim = prophetic books and Ketuvim=writings which cover most of the rest of the books which would have pretty much the same as the Christian Old Testament. Messianic Judaism doesn't view the Tenakh (all three books) as old vs new. We of course include the NT as equal in authority as the Tenakh. All four contain the wisdom of God, and are good for learning, correction, etc. So the Tenakh and the NT are important.

For a Messianic Jew, the NT is a new addition to our understanding. From the basis of the Tenakh, which gives the prophesies of the coming Messiah, we see the Gospels and Acts as the witnesses to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. In the Tenakh, three witnesses are required to establish a truth in a Jewish court of law. That makes the Tenakh and NT equally important and inseparable. One can not stand without the other.

All of that to give a not so brief view of how I see the two.

Also, the NT is actually viewed as a Jewish book. It is about the Jewish Messiah, written by mostly Jewish people, and uses Jewish expressions, and talks about Jewish daily life. While Paul spoke to Gentiles as the Apostle to the Gentiles, he also went to the Jewish people.

An amusing aspect is that Paul, especially in the book of Romans, worked to mediate between Jewish believers and Gentile believers who had a rift between them.

Not what you probably wanted, but hopefully an overly long explanation which might help.

 

[anisavta]

That's cool. I grew up in an atheist home and when I decided to look for religion I went straight to Judaism as advertised by my Hasidic grandparents. I just could not separate religion from the people. Christianity does not have a good rep among us, do you hang out with observant Jews? Can you relate to them?

Not really. Our Orthodox people don't mix very much with the Federation. It's the Conservative and Reform shuls mostly. I relate best with the Conservative. Having Hasidic grandparents - were you close to them? How did they respond to you in your atheist days?

 

[Qnts2]

In that thread you had three Messianics trying to explain that Hebrew meaning of what Yeshua taught regarding food, yet you argued against everyone, including a non Messianic Jew that said the same thing. Your understanding is from a Christian viewpoint, not a Messianic one. What you are saying in these kinds of threads is basically the law was done away with.

I just want to say, Jerushabelle is a Messianic Gentile. We had a chat in PM's and I won't repeat anything said, but I do know a bit of her history with Messianic Judaism, and she has been around since the early days, when things were still being worked out. And she is still with us.

As far as the law of Kasher. I was in a debate with a Messianic Rabbi, who fully believes that we are all to observe the Mosaic law. I challenged him in one scenario. If he was invited to the house of a Gentile who does not keep Kosher and know little about Jewish people and the Mosaic law. And that Gentile had spent time making a very special mean to honor him as a guest, and that special meal included ham. Would he refuse to eat it, or would he thank his hostess and accept the gracious gift which cost her time and money and a great effort to serve to him.

His response was, people come first. He would eat. I agreed. People are more important then food. That is what the NT teaches, and it is not foreign to the Tenakh either. That is why no one stopped David from eating the showbread. People are more important then food.

 

[jcpro]

Not really. Our Orthodox people don't mix very much with the Federation. It's the Conservative and Reform shuls mostly. I relate best with the Conservative. Having Hasidic grandparents - were you close to them? How did they respond to you in your atheist days?

One set of grandparents were murdered by Germans and the other were not too happy with communist offspring(my mother), but even though strict and unhappy, we were family. I had a member of family who married a goy and became RT back in the 20s. Her parents and brothers went ballistic, disowned her and even held a memorial service for her. Everybody's dead now, but I always had a regret that I could not share in their faith while they were alive.

 

[jcpro]

Ok, I got confused by your comments about the Talmud.

From you original statement:



In many ways, Messianic Judaism is not different than Christianity. In some ways it is.

I am a follower of Yeshua the Messiah. The three main books of Judaism, the Torah, Neviim = prophetic books and Ketuvim=writings which cover most of the rest of the books which would have pretty much the same as the Christian Old Testament. Messianic Judaism doesn't view the Tenakh (all three books) as old vs new. We of course include the NT as equal in authority as the Tenakh. All four contain the wisdom of God, and are good for learning, correction, etc. So the Tenakh and the NT are important.

For a Messianic Jew, the NT is a new addition to our understanding. From the basis of the Tenakh, which gives the prophesies of the coming Messiah, we see the Gospels and Acts as the witnesses to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. In the Tenakh, three witnesses are required to establish a truth in a Jewish court of law. That makes the Tenakh and NT equally important and inseparable. One can not stand without the other.

All of that to give a not so brief view of how I see the two.

Also, the NT is actually viewed as a Jewish book. It is about the Jewish Messiah, written by mostly Jewish people, and uses Jewish expressions, and talks about Jewish daily life. While Paul spoke to Gentiles as the Apostle to the Gentiles, he also went to the Jewish people.

An amusing aspect is that Paul, especially in the book of Romans, worked to mediate between Jewish believers and Gentile believers who had a rift between them.

Not what you probably wanted, but hopefully an overly long explanation which might help.

I, respectfully, would like to mention that the Torah can stand by itself as it stood for few thousand years BC and is still standing for it is perfect-in the words of David.

 

[Qnts2]

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

About 4 years ago, a Messianic Jew, Stan Telchin, wrote a book called 'Some say Messianic Judaism is Not Christianity: A Loving Call to Unity '

This book was presented at a meeting with many of the leaders in Messianic Judaism, and it created a fire storm. One particular leader of a large Messianic Judaism organization was angry, and thought the book was an insult. When asked if he thought Messianic Judaism was Christianity, he said no. He was then asked why he was angry, as the title was correct. Some Messianic Jews do say Messianic Judaism is not Christianity.

I would say at least 30% would say Messianic Judaism is not Christianity. Maybe more and maybe less. At that meeting, we were split.

Why do some Messianics renounce being a part of Christianity? Well, I can guess some of the reasons.

One is, Jewish people don't have a frame of reference from Jewish culture. They assume that Gentile and Christian are synonyms, so when a person says they are Christian, they are believed. So when the crusades were done in the name of Christ, that is Christianity. When the pograms were done in the name of Christ, that was also Christians and Christianity. And when the Nazis came to the Jewish people and called them Christ killers and that the Jewish people should be wiped off the earth as subhuman murders of God, that is viewed as Christianity. So, some Messianic Jews don't want to call themselves Christianity.

There are of course other reasons from the differing views.

In my view, to look down on Christianity is wrong. We are equally brothers in the Lord. But, it does happen. The point of Stans book was we need to stop doing that. Plus, more, concerning the legalism of some who do observe the law. That might be a strange sounding statement, but it is understandable if you can consider that loving the Lord gives the desire to serve Him and also loving others. Or, we can observe the law from a legalistic standpoint, looking down or criticizing others who do not do as we think they should. Stan's book is welcomed by some and viewed as the worst thing a Messianic Jew would ever write by others. Some objected to our 'dirty laundry' being shared publically.

Messianic Judaism believes in the same foundation doctrines of salvation as Christianity and since that is the single most important understanding, Messianic Jews and Gentile are followers of Messiah and Christians are followers of Christ. Same Lord and Savior. Messianics are talmidim and Christians are disciples. Both learners of Jesus/Yeshua.

 

[Tishri1]

hi all, I'm here but it will be much later when I can post. Tonight is family night at my folks house , we watch AI together and talk till late, but I will be back

 

[pdudgeon]

Ok, I got confused by your comments about the Talmud.

From you original statement:



In many ways, Messianic Judaism is not different than Christianity. In some ways it is.

I am a follower of Yeshua the Messiah. The three main books of Judaism, the Torah, Neviim = prophetic books and Ketuvim=writings which cover most of the rest of the books which would have pretty much the same as the Christian Old Testament. Messianic Judaism doesn't view the Tenakh (all three books) as old vs new. We of course include the NT as equal in authority as the Tenakh. All four contain the wisdom of God, and are good for learning, correction, etc. So the Tenakh and the NT are important.

For a Messianic Jew, the NT is a new addition to our understanding. From the basis of the Tenakh, which gives the prophesies of the coming Messiah, we see the Gospels and Acts as the witnesses to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. In the Tenakh, three witnesses are required to establish a truth in a Jewish court of law. That makes the Tenakh and NT equally important and inseparable. One can not stand without the other.

All of that to give a not so brief view of how I see the two.

Also, the NT is actually viewed as a Jewish book. It is about the Jewish Messiah, written by mostly Jewish people, and uses Jewish expressions, and talks about Jewish daily life. While Paul spoke to Gentiles as the Apostle to the Gentiles, he also went to the Jewish people.

An amusing aspect is that Paul, especially in the book of Romans, worked to mediate between Jewish believers and Gentile believers who had a rift between them.

Not what you probably wanted, but hopefully an overly long explanation which might help.

it is what i wanted, and thanks very much for your reply.

 

[anisavta]

hi all, I'm here but it will be much later when I can post. Tonight is family night at my folks house , we watch AI together and talk till late, but I will be back

Sounds like fun. Enjoy!

 

[anisavta]

One set of grandparents were murdered by Germans and the other were not too happy with communist offspring(my mother), but even though strict and unhappy, we were family. I had a member of family who married a goy and became RT back in the 20s. Her parents and brothers went ballistic, disowned her and even held a memorial service for her. Everybody's dead now, but I always had a regret that I could not share in their faith while they were alive.

Thanks for sharing.
But you are now continuing the traditions and customs. For that I'm sure your grandparents would be very proud.

 

[Tishri1]

But it and a lot of posts here are not helpful to this forum. Here we need to respect the Torah observer and not derail their threads...I can keep this up all week if I have to, this forum has always enjoyed the safe haven of having discussion on Torah free of derailment, that will not change

Okay, but you've spent an inordinate amount of time in this thread telling all here to be more tolerant of differing viewpoints and, respectfully, your response to Sister Qnts2 is more like the MJ Forum according to Sister Tishri's experience and not at all accepting of the fact that there are some Messianic Jews who believe as Sister Qnts2. And Sister Tishri......there are some Messianic Jews who believe as Sister Qnts2.

It's my understanding that Deuteronomy is often treated separately from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers by scholars. The word Torah does not mean "law" but rather "to teach" and that is true of all five books but the Law is primarily taught in Devarim. The other four books teach the beginning, the departure, those He called to the priesthood and the laws for that priesthood and the record of the wandering; God's history lesson, so to speak. Bearing this in mind, I can understand what Sister Qnts2 is saying and I've heard it said this way in other Messianic camps. It's not out of line with Messianic Judaism at all.

 

[Tishri1]

You're telling people they can't accept Scripture and be Messianic.
How do you account for all the Messianic Jewish camps that believe this including many in the MJAA?

See my post above. We will not have folks derailing threads with unhelpful posts. That is a disruption to the peace and harmony of the forum that has enjoyed discussing Torah with its members since 2003 if my memory serves me correct

 

[Tishri1]

Don't worry, you can pretty much jump in anywhere and find what you're looking for. I had the links prepared but I erased them and just referenced the whole thread in defference to some folks. At this point, I'm not sure it matters.

Ok I will have us look it over for you

 

[Tishri1]

in short, tonight I asked the small team of staff who are myself, David our chaplain, mark, Pam and also Ed who you all meet when you come to the MSC to moderate this forum for a while. We are all here reading this thread and we will be the only ones handling your reports for a while and also if anyone would like Ed and I to review your staff actions in the MSC please come in there and start a thread and ask for us, we would be happy to reverse any that were not done correctly

This post really bothers me. I find it rJather inflammatory, and in the heat of the moment, rather than left for a few minutes and come back to.

IF it is alright, I would like to reword this part.

"Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?"

"Are you requesting that others in the community who have differing views be banned or relegated to other parts of the forum if they disagree with you? Do you realize this would result in tit-for-tat?"

"The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many."

"The video was not intended to be anti-torah, but to prove a point that there are differing positions in relation to Torah observance within the Messianic community. We do not all see eye to eye."

"What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith...."

"I find your tone accusatory. I may be misunderstanding you however, and I have big feelings about how this was worded. Can you clarify your statement?"

"What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?"

"What is it that you are asking me to moderate exactly? Or do you perhaps mean that I and other moderators are to censor certain posts? I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here. Please do come back and clarify so we are all on the same page."


That might have been received much better by all of us.


It is actually quite difficult for me to post at all with the netbook I was using, so quoting was a bit out of the question, as it has a tendency to randomly erase and insert words where I am trying to type. I was rather surprised the post came out at all in one piece.

My post was not directed at one person, but everyone.

I do find that several of your posts here are reactionary and inflaming. Not intentionally, I'm sure - but they could be a little more aloof.

This for example:


The poster you are referencing was not "stoning" those who supported the post, but was explaining how it is inflammatory to those of us who have been here a while and are Torah observant (in all it's many flavors) and how many in the movement and outside of it tell us that all our doing is "simply in vain" or "silly" (as it was taken by some) or "not really an issue" (which is an issue to some). The person that the video is from, is not even Messianic. They are however on the "fringes" of the movement - as a Hebrew Christian organization. I put fringes in quotation marks, because some do find they are a bit fringe in their beliefs. I personally believe they are outside of the Messianic faith, and more in the Christian grouping, in that generally they line up theologically as Christian, and deny being Messianic.

He posted this with the intent it went with the group of discussions covering this, but got here a bit late in the game. By then, everyone else had moved on. This is not his fault, your fault or anyone else's. It just happened to be an unfortunate happening, and should have been taken as such.

His opinion is just as valid as those who believe the video and opinions contained therein are 100% what they believe and uphold. Neither is more right than the other, it is totally how we present that belief and communicate and fellowship together after knowing where we all stand.


This, is really very passive-agressive. I am actually very uncomfortable if this is how our forum is to be moderated. Moderation is supposed to be as impartial as possible, even when people strike a nerve.

I too was one that was driven away from the forum a long time ago. I came back. I can walk a mile, but seriously I don't see where anyone was falsely accused other than those who posted a bit later than they intended.

When there is fur flying, step back a little and watch it settle before trying to separate those who are fighting, or you too will get caught in the fray.



I would also like to ask this question. I'm not attacking you Templar, I just do not understand why your response has been as it has.


Oh, it's certainly not unseen. Certainly not. We just know others and either have attempted to address it multiple times in various ways, and likely may have already taken a "hands off" approach because nothing else is working.

I find your last couple of posts a little reactionary, about like a parent that hasn't gotten up off their butt, but told a 3 year old several times "stop it" and then just stands up out of nowhere, jerks the child up by their arm and throws them over their lap and begins laying into their hind end. The problem was not the action of the child, but how the parent reacted. Was it a teachable moment? Yep. It taught the child "if i bug mommy/daddy enough, they'll beat the tar out of me, not play with me."





There is a reason it is not in the SoF. It was not agreed upon to be in there, because it was either considered controversial, or it did not line up with the MJAA and UMJC. There are more Messianic groups out there than lined up with those two, including a few that are a little koo-koo-ka-choo. There are others that someone in the MJAA/UMJC that might find a little "fringe", but that does not make those people fringe if their doctrine does agree with the majority of scripture, even if that means they look 100% orthodox and would blend in with the crowd in Mea Sherim in Jerusalem, or if they are J4J.

Problem is, there are Hebrew Christian groups, and they are not represented in the SoF. We have "Nazarene" groups that are not represented in the SoF and we have one poster here that aligns with much of that line of thinking. There are groups between MJ and HC that are not represented in the SoF There are Messianic groups that are all over the board that are not represented in the SoF - yet we have people from all of those groups that are posting here.

Short of posting every SoF and group websites who believe in those SoF's - we will not have everyone here happily and fully represented.

Of course we cannot even begin to try and do that either, because many Messianics do not believe in putting up a SoF, because that is not a Jewish mode of recognition at all. It just serves to engender more questions as to what they believe. It's easier to just call up/email the rabbi or elder board and find out what is going on there.

 

[Tishri1]

The power point was

I see that video caused an uproar. I'm not sure if it was a Sticky before I posted it or not. But want to re-iterate my intentions why suggested it. My intentions weren't to show whether or the Law of Moses is defunct. Not to show whether or not there's different 'flavors' of Messianic Judaism. What else? I think that's it. The intention of the person who made the video wasn't that either as he said 'I always thought we were miles apart'. The purpose of the video was just that, not any doctrinal implications.

What's more interesting and correct me if I'm wrong Tishri that notes or the video was shown at Messiah conference?

 

[Tishri1]

And just add Ed to the mix too he will meet anyone in MSC with me to review staff actions incurred during this very stressful time for MJ..I understand some grace may be needed as times have been hard all around

Brother Templar is a Moderator in good standing but not here as part of the MJ Forum Upgrade Team. He is participating as a member here in our attempts to improve things and better get along. The members of our team which could change depending on certain variables include:
The Boss Lady: Tishri1
Team Supervisor: Mark
Supervisor Trainee: Pam
Moderator: Tanya
David: Chaplain, cook, and eater of fine baked goods

If you don't know these folks screen names I can translate them for you. We all have experience both on the board and in forum upgrades. And we care about you, each other and the board (CF). You may pm any of us at any time. Some of us have messenger and skype at our disposal. Shalom.